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The Scripture Project?
Posted: 22 August 2008 02:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]  
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Bruce Burleson - 22 August 2008 05:50 PM

The notable Quaker hit the nail on the head, and his observation closes the “gap.” Some people find that their experiences are explained by or “correspond to” what is found in the Bible. This is a relatively common experience that transcends racial, cultural, gender and historic boundaries. This phenomenon creates in the believer the sense that he/she has communed or communicated with the “divine,” that which brings order out of chaos (human writings called “Scripture”) and uses the natural to reveal the supernatural.

This is some of the best crafted, well-phrased and elegant sounding nonsense I have read in quite some time.

Can we just get back to basics here for a moment, take a deep breath and see what the subject at hand is?
Here is the original proposition:
Some people claim that an old collection of writings is more than just the product of human labor.
Why do they think this? Because the book says so.

Let’s open the book at random and see what it says:
It speaks of people living for centuries, giants, talking snakes, global floods, dead motherfuckers walking around Jerusalem, the justification for selling your daughters into sexual slavery, the theological justifications for genocide, genital mutilation, murder, mass-murder and some more murder, some deranged lunatic yammering on how he thinks he is the son of god and detailed instructions on what food you shouldn’t eat, what material your clothes should be made of so the creator of the universe will not be cross with you.
To give you but a random selection.

Who but a complete imbecile would think that anything else written there deserves any of our time and attention at all, let alone be scrutinized for “divine” whatever ?

It is like picking up a tract from the NSDAP and after reading the bits about how evil Jews and homosexuals and gypsies are some blithering idiot goes: “Wait, I think these guys may be on to something anyway, let’s keep on reading it and see what wisdom we can discover.”

By god’s cock, what a fucked up species we are.
Thank Jeebus I will soon be dead.

[ Edited: 22 August 2008 02:21 PM by Lapin Diabolique]
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Posted: 22 August 2008 02:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]  
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Bruce Burleson - 22 August 2008 06:09 PM

I have neither explanation nor rationalization for the don’t find group - only observation. Some find, some don’t. Details at midnight.

Data point number one: I was not indoctrinated from the Bible as a child. Data point number two: I’ll bet more than 50% of the people who post at this forum are people trying to recover from childhood indoctrination. The ones who are still caught up in it are (notably) not asking what caused some people to drop it, but are rather caught up defending why they themselves are still caught up in it. This betrays a certain lack of curiosity about the explanatory gap. Hmm. I wonder why. Cognitive dissonance.

[ Edited: 22 August 2008 02:37 PM by Traces Elk]
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Posted: 22 August 2008 02:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]  
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Sander - 22 August 2008 06:16 PM

Who but a complete imbecile would think that anything else written there deserves any of our time

Ahh. My demonic rabbit pal has reappeared, as through a glass, darkly.

The plot thickens.

Complete imbeciles are not of a mind (I use the term generously) to inquire why it deserves our time. What we see here is a rear-guard action performed by those who have actually bothered to think about what they are doing. It deserves their time because Dawkins and Harris and others have politely asked them to think about what they are doing, and they are thoughtful enough to oblige. The pale rationalizations really suggest they know what they are doing. Perhaps they’ve mined the bridge but now realize they’re on the bridge stuck between the advancing army of reason from one direction and the even-more ruthless army of Islamo-fascism from the other. They can’t push the button and blow themselves to Kingdom Come, because, Viriginia, there is no Santa Claus. Perhaps they just hope we’ll get to them before the mullahs do.

The complete imbeciles are (for the most part) not here posting online, although the occasional Champ or Clay or MommyX5.5 do stop by. Instead, they are holding vigils in front of Women’s Clinics and actively trying to turn the government of the United States into a sectarian one. That a few clever individuals are here busily rationalizing their faith, and rationalizing the concept of faith itself, and yet claim not to be interested in a sectarian state is a puzzle I no longer want to solve. They don’t seem to imagine converting us (or back-converting the lost sheep). They’re not imbeciles, in any event.

The argument that “faith” is what “most people” want is absurd. Most people are not thoughtful at all about faith, and in fact want the housing market to rebound much more than they want to be “saved”. It’s all that’s going to save them.

[ Edited: 22 August 2008 02:59 PM by Traces Elk]
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Posted: 22 August 2008 02:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]  
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Sander - 22 August 2008 06:16 PM

This is some of the best crafted, well-phrased and elegant sounding nonsense I have read in quite some time.

Thank you, but I’m really more interested in what you think about the Dutch/Belgian beer debate that is absolutely raging on the “General Discussion” section. 

Sander - 22 August 2008 06:16 PM

Thank Jeebus I will soon be dead.

But not yet, not yet.

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Posted: 22 August 2008 02:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]  
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Salt Creek - 22 August 2008 06:17 PM

[

Data point number one: ...... indoctrinated; Data point number two: ..... indoctrination.

Hard to put that crayon down, isn’t it?

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Posted: 22 August 2008 02:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]  
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Salt Creek - 22 August 2008 06:31 PM

Perhaps they’ve mined the bridge but now realize they’re on the bridge stuck between the advancing army of reason from one direction and the even-more ruthless army of Islamo-fascism from the other.

Let’s say it comes to this eventually. To whom should one surrender? To the one who will win, obviously. Which will win? The more ruthless, obviously. On second thought, blowing the bridge is the best course of action.

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Posted: 22 August 2008 03:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]  
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Bruce Burleson - 22 August 2008 06:53 PM
Salt Creek - 22 August 2008 06:17 PM

[

Data point number one: ...... indoctrinated; Data point number two: ..... indoctrination.

Hard to put that crayon down, isn’t it?

Whether or not it’s a crayon, what I’m writing on the wall is either a fact or it isn’t. I didn’t say somebody stood over you with a whip and made you study Bible stories. I mean that nobody gave you a choice. I actually was given a choice; nobody told me I couldn’t attend church if I wanted to. Do you know how fucking weird it is to go to church as a child if your parents don’t? I do. It’s not my choice if people act weird toward me for that reason alone. That’s the kind of people who attend church, and they distrust you, because they know how much effort they’re going to waste if you go home and tell your parents what they tried to teach you in church.

Do you know how weird it is to think about going to church as an adult, if you didn’t do it as a child? I do.

Do you know anything except how to whine that organized religion gets treated sooooo unfairly by bad, mean atheists?

The only thing that makes conventional church in the US worth attending has nothing whatsoever to do with faith, or contact with divinity, or Jeebus, or whatever crazy theology you want to bring up. The real reason to attend church has to do with forging social relationships in the community and how to suck up to authority and smile.

[ Edited: 22 August 2008 03:39 PM by Traces Elk]
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Posted: 22 August 2008 05:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]  
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Salt Creek - 22 August 2008 07:15 PM

Do you know anything except how to whine that organized religion gets treated sooooo unfairly by bad, mean atheists?

The only thing that makes conventional church in the US worth attending has nothing whatsoever to do with faith, or contact with divinity, or Jeebus, or whatever crazy theology you want to bring up. The real reason to attend church has to do with forging social relationships in the community and how to suck up to authority and smile.

Dude, it’s Friday night. Go get you a local micro-brew and chill. Maybe an order of tilapia. I realize that I sound like a whiner sometimes, but I repent. I’m past that. It really has nothing to do with organized religion for me. Faith is a personal thing, which has nothing to do with indoctrination. But I’ve given up on convincing anyone about that. Have a good evening.

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Posted: 22 August 2008 07:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]  
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As for me, tonight my son and I will go watch DEATH RACE!  I wonder if David Carradine will have a cameo. 

Tilapia is perhaps the world’s best chance for a sustainable protein source for everyone, and its pretty good if done right.

Parable

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Posted: 23 August 2008 06:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]  
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Bruce Burleson - 22 August 2008 09:44 PM

I realize that I sound like a whiner sometimes, but I repent. I’m past that. It really has nothing to do with organized religion for me. Faith is a personal thing, which has nothing to do with indoctrination. But I’ve given up on convincing anyone about that. Have a good evening.

Bruce,
Not to beat a dead Christian but I wonder then what difference your faith makes, say, between you and me.

We’ve met. We are both pleasant people who like to laugh, drink and debate. We both love and eat and shit and one day we will both, Deo volente, join the choir invisibule.

Vive la différence and all that, but I don’t see what the surplus value of your faith is? 
Honestly, it seems redundant at best.

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Posted: 23 August 2008 10:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]  
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Salt Creek - 22 August 2008 07:15 PM

That’s the kind of people who attend church, and they distrust you, because they know how much effort they’re going to waste if you go home and tell your parents what they tried to teach you in church.

Rational Children

Bruce Burleson - 22 August 2008 09:44 PM

Faith is a personal thing, which has nothing to do with indoctrination.

Faith is pretty fucking far from a personal thing with you, Bruce, and your efforts here are evidence of that. I don’t diss you because you’re a person of faith, but because you’re being disingenuous about whether or not it’s personal. If you don’t believe you’re being disingenuous about it, you have your head so far up your ass that you’re probably not all that safe to be around, except for lunch, because you don’t know the difference between your boundaries and anyone else’s. If you are being disingenuous about it, well, you know what the fruits of unmasked disingenuousness are.

I have a close friend who is a person of deep faith. He is also a scientist even more accomplished than I am, by any measure that people use to describe scientific accomplishment. He knows his faith is a personal matter, and doesn’t blow it in people’s faces. He knows that people will respect him for his scientific accomplishments, so it doesn’t matter to him whether or not anyone respects him just because he maintains his own faith. In fact, his faith is strong enough not to care if I don’t have any use for faith, his or anyone else’s, even though he knows I don’t. He doesn’t bring the subject up with me, and I don’t bring it up with him. Do you see how simple it is when somebody simply and honestly knows what it means to make faith a “personal matter”?

If faith were really a personal matter with you, I’d guess we’d be hearing from you a bit less here, or you’d be a little less concerned with what atheists have to say about “faith”.

[ Edited: 23 August 2008 10:59 AM by Traces Elk]
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Posted: 23 August 2008 10:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]  
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Salt Creek - 23 August 2008 02:22 PM

If faith were really a personal matter with you, I’d guess we’d be hearing from you a bit less here, or you’d be a little less concerned with what atheists have to say about “faith”.

You’re probably right. But, if I didn’t post and interact here, I wouldn’t get to know people, learn things, discuss things that are interesting to me. So, I am on the horns of a dilemma: on the one horn, my faith experience is personal; on the other horn, I like discussing the whole matter and interacting. Your point is well-taken, but it’s still an awkward dance for me.

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Posted: 23 August 2008 11:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]  
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Sander - 23 August 2008 10:45 AM

Vive la différence and all that, but I don’t see what the surplus value of your faith is?  Honestly, it seems redundant at best.

Back to the personal concept of faith, it would probably be as hard to explain that to you as for someone to explain why they liked Michael Bolton or Michael Jackson or any of the other Michael’s you hate. The added value is in the eye of the beholder. Now, if someone tries to levy a tax on that added value, can I give you a call?

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Posted: 23 August 2008 12:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]  
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Bruce Burleson - 23 August 2008 02:58 PM
Salt Creek - 23 August 2008 02:22 PM

If faith were really a personal matter with you, I’d guess we’d be hearing from you a bit less here, or you’d be a little less concerned with what atheists have to say about “faith”.

You’re probably right. But, if I didn’t post and interact here, I wouldn’t get to know people, learn things, discuss things that are interesting to me. So, I am on the horns of a dilemma: on the one horn, my faith experience is personal; on the other horn, I like discussing the whole matter and interacting. Your point is well-taken, but it’s still an awkward dance for me.

Maybe invasive or intrusive or impositional would be more accurate terms than personal for this use (imposing has a different connotation for me, so I just use impositional)?

Byron

[ Edited: 23 August 2008 01:16 PM by SkepticX]
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Posted: 23 August 2008 12:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]  
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Bruce Burleson - 23 August 2008 03:03 PM

The added value is in the eye of the beholder.

I am reminded of the scene from Altman’s The Player (which I just watched again last night), the one in which Griffin Mill (portrayed by Tim Robbins) murders the disgruntled writer, David Kahane (played by Vincent D’Onofrio):

Keep it to yourself! Keep it to yourself!

Kahane is only angry at Mill, who had promised to “get back to” him, but didn’t, because Mill is a quintessential asshole. Mill is paranoid. I’m just angry, and trying to let you know how far you should go with being disingenuous. You’re paranoid.

Your paranoia: Being told to keep it to yourself. But do me (and yourself) a favor, and keep it to yourself. It’s not anyone else’s business if you have an invisible Friend. My paranoia: Your subjective “value in the eye of the beholder” could really permit you to do anything. It did with Ahmed Ressam. Or cite “freedom of expression” and have done with pretending that there is anything out there for us to consider.

[ Edited: 23 August 2008 01:03 PM by Traces Elk]
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