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Posted: 21 January 2005 04:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]  
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It is common for the intellectual who does not understand, to take words and put them together and make false assumptions.

Here “African” and “monkeyman” was taken and put together.  Why? Because these are word they are sensitised to.  The racist is actually the one acusing the other.  It is a technique of deflection from their inner selves.  They live superficially, taking status and identity from whatever they do and say.

Then the really big insightful words are used to detract from the message by insinuating: “are you perhaps in denial about your true feelings for other men’s back passages? Are you in fact gay?”

This manoever is called “Stonewalling”.

You cannot discuss with such inflated egos.  And they cannot see what is simple.  Robbing innocence whenever they find it.

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Posted: 21 January 2005 04:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]  
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I think you’re making the common mistake of presuming biology and chemistry can’t govern our behavior as much as they do. Sexuality is about simple (primal) biology and chemistry far more than the higher brain functions and motivations you keep delving into.

You are right, sexuality is simple, but humans make a song and dance about it, then it becomes a consumer item, then a bartering item, then a selling item.

As a very important way to bring the next generation into the world, I would think a little respect for sex would be in order.

On the biology issue, I assume all instincts for mating and survival are still inherent in us.  I would surmise then that there was a little bit of self-denial if you were humping the ugly broad you met in the bar last night.
(If you are intellectual, I know you cannot follow this,  please do not accuse me of being heterosexual).

This detachment from self,  denying what you inherently hear from your own instincts, leads people to call themselves by their behaviour as “genetic” rather than psychotic.  I hear the Paedophiles have their own website and say they were born that way. They have been moulded from without.  And when they go out, they recognise each other.

What the Religious Right have done is put God outside themselves, and so they too are moulded externally.  That is why they hate each other. They show each other up to be frauds.

I do not hate either of them.  I am sad for their chains, rituals and games.

If you listen to the stillness in your heart, not only will you heal and separate from these addictions and ego-soothing identities, you will flower as you should.

If you are too psychologically attached then you can remember Jesus died for your freedom.  That was a deliberate act, and what he had were external God-worshippers to contend with.

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Posted: 21 January 2005 06:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]  
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If Jesus deliberately died for our sins, then obviously the Jews and Romans werent to blame?

If he knew he would be resurrected, prior to dying, what exactly was his sacrafice?

When I read this story, I am struck by this thought…

Here was a man, supposedly with the power of God at his beck and call, and instead of calling down fire on the people murdering him, he chose to let himself be killed. 

So, people of true faith would not fight, they would die, confident in the belief of an afterlife?  People of true faith at the worst moments before death would still have compassion for those killing them?

This seems to be the way the orginal christians handled it.

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Posted: 21 January 2005 07:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]  
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[quote author=“Guest”
I felt a little scared.  I read it like he was calling to his troops from the dark side.  Not prepared to tangle with any of the ideas.  And I thought why give pearls to these people?  They are the ones who kill without compulsion a la abortion.  You find a prison guard, officious official, a torturer, and a facist; and the worst will be a homosexual.

We are so lucky at the moment to have some freedom, as the Devil is riding on the extreem left and extreem right.  The homosexuals on the Left the religious zealots on the Right It is this evidence of wickedness in man that is most haunting.  They are both soul killers, and impose their mantra from their own Bibles.

Dear guest.
You surely seem to have a number of sexual difficulties and quite an unfounded and irrational fear of homosexuality.  I would suggest that you read some of the Marquis de Sade’s brilliant works before using the tag suggested by his name as an indicator of torture.

Perhaps you are not aware that both Socrates and Plato felt that true love could exist only between two men, and that the male-female bond was one intended solely for the purposes of procreation (of course they were not very sympathetic to women at all).  How about two of the great renaissance artists Leonardo da Vinci and Michelangelo, both of them were well documented homosexuals - how dangerous were they? Even some of the brilliant thinkers of the last few centuries, Rene Descartes, David Hume, Isaac Newton and Immanuel Kant were likely homosexual - although no proof certainly exists.  And just think about some of the finest expressions of human emotions ever written in the English language, “The Sonnets” by one William Shakespeare are the words of love for a young man written by the older bard.  Don’t these mean anything to you? And perhaps the greatest American poet Walt Whitman himself was a homosexual who could not express his most intimate thoughts openly.  Have you ever heard of these persons or read their thoughts?

This is meant to show that homosexuality is somehow better but merely that it is not the ‘evil’ you suggest and that those who are born into it are not inclined to be fascist, leather-wearing, body-builders who torture people and carry guns.  I don’t know where you’ve picked up such misinformation - perhaps reading too much bible? Homosexuality is a natural human condition and in light of the 6.3 billion persons now inhabiting (and destroying) the earth, perhaps a preferable condition.

I might also quote another famous ‘queen’ to close, “We are the champions . . .of the world” by Freddie Mercury. (In this case ‘champions’ is meant to represent those who fight for the cause of the underdog in the world. The gays are the champions of dignity and equality for all human beings, because they have suffered the belittling and maligning of those too ignorant to know any better.  Every one mentioned above is such a champion . . . of the world.)

So have a heart - Guest

Bob

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Posted: 22 January 2005 04:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]  
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In the second last paragraph I wrote, “This is meant to show . . .”  Maybe a Freudian slip but I actually intended to say, “This is not meant to show . . .”  )sort of changes the meaning in an important way.)

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Posted: 23 January 2005 06:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]  
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If you lived in Palestine of 2000 years ago it would be the occupying Romans you may have hated, and seen Pharisees confusing what is simple to keep their power.  Today Imams teach peace and love with one side of the mouth and murder and revenge with the other.  If you are born among this, and can see through all that, then you have listened to something in yourself, and seen beyond the madness around you.

It took a Jesus to recognise what the Jewish prophets were getting at and see where a path of innocence will take you.  Better die a free man than a slave.

If we do not listen to ourselves, we cannot be spontaneous and we’ll never know a good or bad spirit that moves among us.  We’ll have to intellectualise everything to have it pass our test.

If you do listen, maybe meditation, you will realise of yourself you can do nothing, and your desires for worldly thing will diminish and love for your fellow man increase.

This applies to observing the sexually-identified and drug-addicted individuals.  They seek escape from their pain by intoxication. Those talented people who identify with adulation often end up sexually diseased or dependency.  They are not happy people.  Da Vinci could not finish things.  But the simple understanding that could have freed them is shunned. 

For Freddy Mercury his friends did not say “when are you going to have that sex change operation and settle down with a real man?” but they let him hop from one bed to another until one disease could not be cured at the STD clinic.  Some friends.

Sexual orientation does not make people talented.  It is some young talented people who are immature and impressionable that go off the rails and become sexually orientated.  (You cannot hypnotise someone who is unintelligent - you have to be suggestible - hence gays are bright).  Bisexual?  It means abuse me both ways - with more needy touchy feeliness than a kid with Downs Syndrome.

If you phone a sexual orientation helpline – they will never let you out.  Feel the pain, rather than run from it.  Each solution used to avoid the present leads to more complications to be unravelled later on in life or not at all.

That God abandoned you?  You ran away from your centre.

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Posted: 23 January 2005 01:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]  
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I believe that Neuroscientist Sam defined a ‘Belief System’ as essentially different from ‘Faith’ thus….
Intelligence requires that we all operate extensively & daily on belief systems. We believe that the sun will rise tomorrow.
A belief system is a constellation of ideas based on previous experiences or observations (yours or someone else’s); that we use as a yardstick to assess & understand similar FUTURE experience or observations. 
And if there be acceptable (subjective!) congruence, the new data will be incorporated into the system & MAY MODIFY IT.  A sort of living ‘moving average’ of ‘EVIDENCE-BASED’ validity. 
Furthermore,  lack of new data input will weaken the belief system; that’s why most of us stop believing in Santa Claus.

Therefore, there is nothing wrong with believing; believing is good.

What’s WRONG is FAITH.  Blind faith in defiance of observation, experience, new data input, science, common sense, or reason.

It is Faith that leads us to slaughter each other to defend the myth of our upstart antedeluvian god.
It is Faith (+ greed + arrogance) that pits Us vs Them, or Me against the NotMe.
The Male Monotheisms proselytized extensively on the ‘Us/Them’ polarity (as is written in any of those holy books).  That polarity is notably absent from some other religions - such as Buddhism - that are not faith-based.

Wruff_Knoats

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Posted: 25 January 2005 12:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]  
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Dear Guest,

Here is what you said:

“Look how we give condoms to the South Africans. Once they run out of them, a monkey-man has still got to do what he gotta do. So the AIDS disease is spread even more. “

Now, you can try to wriggle out of the racist meaning of that sentence, by deconstructing it all you like. But I think we all know what you meant. You are saying that giving condoms to black Africans is wrong, because it encourages them to have sex, and when the condoms run out, they will continue to have sex and spread AIDS. 

Are you a catholic, by any chance? Sound just like the church’s teaching.
But you are surely a racist, ignorant fool.

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Posted: 25 January 2005 04:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]  
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The lesson I got from Jesus was

Better to die with the power of god at your fingertips than destroy one ignorant fool to save your life.

Turn the other cheek

Take the beam out of your own eye

Forgive those that trespass against you

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Posted: 25 January 2005 06:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]  
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Nietzsche, don’t call me Shirley.

Monkey-man is my description of all men who can’t keep their pecker in their trousers.  Now a little discipline would not go amiss but no, you pimps say “let it all hang out, there is no loyalty to one partner” (or to one God for that matter). 

If we were loyal we would not spread AIDS.  Condoms cannot prevent the spread of disease, a lifestyle change can.

I can see why you think I was being racist as you’ve heard black men being called monkeys, but I certainly did not use the term for that.  I was not describing skin colour but incontinent sexual behaviour, in the same way I would not dream of labelling people as homosexuals but describe their addictive-compulsive behaviour.  Humans cannot be labelled, as they are transient beings, but they do evolve into freer or more compulsive personalities.

And when I say pimp, I mean you have a reward.  That is, a false sense of peace.  Because if there are people more insane than you, whatever you indulge in will look normal.  You gain a false sense of calmness.  You told the world you were an enabler, to set the world free, yet you really drew people into bondage and dependency. The fraud is exposed just by an innocent child sitting next to you.  Your face will be lined with your denials of conscience.  Like an ugly woman seeking uglier friends to hang around with you’ll spurn this friendship of real beauty, or corrupt them with your non-values.

Character is built upon ideals and sadly this aspect of discipline and conscience you know nothing about.

Do you smoke?

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Posted: 25 January 2005 06:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]  
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Guest, you are a sad and twisted individual, with more prejudice and bitterness in your heart than most.

But as Iisbliss recommends, I will let it go (not because jesus says so, but because it is not worth the effort to continue a discussion with someone I don’t respect). End of story.

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Posted: 25 January 2005 08:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]  
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Nietzsche,

As you contributed nothing to foward the discussion on this thread. You will not be missed.  You have done the easy job while others have laid their thoughts bare.

Because Man does not know himself it is good psychology to leave the door open.

You have closed it and made something contempary.  Even now it looks out of date.

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Posted: 25 January 2005 10:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]  
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[quote author=“Guest”]It is common for the intellectual who does not understand, to take words and put them together and make false assumptions.


Intellectuals seek understanding.  They understand the implications of the words they put to together.  They test assumptions against reality and seek truth.

It is much more common for the ignorant to put words they don’t understand together and make false assumptions than it is for the intellectual.  The truly ignorant will then claim a higher power for those false assumptions and try to beat up intellectuals with them.

In fact, this is a definitative difference between intellectual and ignorant.

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Posted: 06 February 2005 03:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]  
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Go away. Please. This is a place for intellectual discussion. Every forum that pops up that is based around logic there is always one Christian that pops up that posts something like this. Never fails.

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Posted: 06 February 2005 07:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]  
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Hello Guest ...

You contradict yourself.  On the one hand, you mention the innocence and love of Jesus, but your personal attitude towards your fellow man is anything but loving.  I read anger, fear, arrogance between the lines of your postings.  Can’t say even one of them gives me any kind of warm, fuzzy feeling. 

You make the common assumption that homosexuality is equivalent to sexual promiscuity.  I understand homosexuality to be biologically and hormonally based, and sexual promiscuity, whether hetero- or homosexual, to be the outcome of abuse severe enough for one to abandon their sense of privacy and self-worth in their search for acceptance and love.  I agree with your one small point that the sexually promiscuous are generally ‘not happy people,’ but any expression of past abuse/neglect generally does not manifest as happiness.  How, then, is your condemnation helpful to them in any way?  I would argue that it isn’t for homosexuals, whether the great philosophers and artists from our past or those who live today, to come to ‘the simple understanding [that Jesus’ is their Saviour] that [could free] them,’ but acceptance and freedom from condemnation of their fellow man, including you. 

A fundamental difference between ‘believers’ and agnostics/atheists/humanists is that a believer tends to leave most of the loving and reconciling to an unseen God.  Non-believers, whether closed to any notion of ‘god’ or open to a different understanding of god, generally feel a stronger sense of urgency and responsibility to do what we are able to alleviate the pain and suffering of our fellow man here and now.  You seem to feel no responsibility yourself to do any of the hard work to love your neighbour (yup, the homosexuals too) as yourself.  What a cop out, I say.  You get to behave as shamefully and disdainfully as you like, loving those that are ‘easy’ to love and condemning those whom you judge to be lesser than yourself.  As long as you profess a ‘belief’ in love and kindness, you’re ‘free’ from any responsibility to actually behave well.  You leave all the hard, heart-wrenching work for Jesus or God sometime in the future, upon someone’s death or a final Judgement Day.  You’re missing the whole point to life and, in your case, the whole point of Jesus’ message.

Your arrogance has the better of you at the moment.  You’re not as free as you think you are ...  Once you hop off your pedestal and shed a little of your arrogance, you just might find that the ‘Jesus’ you’re so intent on quoting rather than imitating can be found at ‘the center’ of each of the people you have been working so hard to alienate.

Good luck

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“Believe those who seek the truth, doubt those who find it.”  Andre Gide

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