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End game?
Posted: 12 September 2010 12:55 PM   [ Ignore ]  
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I don’t have much hope for islamic reform at this point, given what the books say.  Christians can ignore parts of scripture and come out relatively tolerant, but Islam is a religion of world domination, subjugation, and intolerance.  Many “heroes” have tried, and failed miserably.

I’d have to agree with Sam Harris on this topic: what we need is not more tolerant, peaceful forms of religiosity, but wholesale rejection of supernatural ideology in the mainstream.  Only then will we be able to stand as a nation, and a world, and tell muslims to knock it off, Allah is a fairytale and your continued adherence to barbarism is going to bury your culture.  Pull the troops, isolate the countries, and force an evolution in thought.

More and more muslims are being trampled under their own religious ideology, and they’re embracing the herd.  This problem won’t be fixed because muslims will all of a sudden realize their religion is imperfect and needs change.  That is even more of a fairytale belief than Allah.

Burn baby burn!  It is freedom of expression and I, for one, will not let that go just to appease a bunch of fundamentalist nutcases with a gun to their own people, especially when those people continue denying the root of the problem and blaming anyone and everyone except their own violent ideology.

Am I alone?

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Posted: 12 September 2010 05:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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Yeah, what worries me about all the discussion of the cancelled Koranflagration is that no one (that I read) wrote anything like “If Rev. Jones wants to protest what’s in he Quran, a better way to do it would be…”

It’s like the Quran’s sacred-object status renders its contents immune from criticism.

Am I REQUIRED to respect someone’s belief that God commanded him to conquer and convert me?

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Posted: 13 September 2010 07:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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I heard a proposition on YouTube which seems in line with that thinking, namely “Use the Koran as a Doorstep Day”.  I think perhaps a program of desensitizing muslims to criticism might be the best approach, though I’m not sure how well this will work.  He brings up some good points, though, that we are not handling the ‘angry mob’ mentality very well when we back down every time one manifests in response to any type of criticism. 

I will admit, on the alternative, that MANY muslims seem extraordinarily careful about respecting other religions, and their ‘sacred’ texts.  Its a start, but as the title of my post suggests, what is the end game?  How far can we really urge muslims to move away from literal interpretations of the Quran and Hadith(s) when we are still plagued by a massive christian movement in the US?  They aren’t burning witches, sure, but they’re still opposing science, still lobbying for discriminatory laws based on their holy books, and still attempting to marginalize any groups that don’t conform to their way of thinking. 

I see Turkey and think, “hey, maybe this is progress”.  Then someone is beheaded, or has acid thrown in their face, or some idiot in arkansas runs over his daughters with a jeep and I realize that there might not be an end game outside of forced de-indoctrination.

I’m asking, more or less, if there is some piece of this puzzle that I am unaware of, which might give me hope.

Anyone?

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Posted: 23 September 2010 01:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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don’t have much hope for Islamic reform at this point, given what the books say.  Christians can ignore parts of scripture and come out relatively tolerant, but Islam is a religion of world domination, subjugation, and intolerance.  Many “heroes” have tried, and failed miserably.

Now i heard Sam as well speaks about similar issue (and he wrote so as well , Mr. Hitchens also shared some of that opinion except he sees all religious faith on the same level…etc.

I honestly Disagree with both and the quoted sentence, I’ve heard Sam saying he “read” the Quran and hadith, and always wanted to ask which?
The reason for such question that 1- such matter specifically about the hadith is often debated on the Muslim societies
2- and most importantly a Translated Quran is not a Quran…and claiming to understand it just by reading a translation is sincerely non-beneficial in nature,  why?
a Quran translation is either the work of the Fundamental extremist who translate verses according to their point view , or non-Muslim scholars (rarely found) and its lacks somewhat understanding of Arabic words of the time period…
to elaborate more , Arabic as language is not really understood the same now and when the date the Quran supposedly came to be, so certain words have a meaning back then that’s a deferent one now and that’s one point the fundamentalists play into their hadith based ideology.
Now i gather from some time and a lot of observation of most of the talks regarding Islam that most of those who criticize it actually know little about it or the issues facing it and facing the Muslim societies and this is a basic problem
the new age fundamental jihadists base there propaganda ( and the Wahhabis as well) on the hadith and that’s for a reason , the hadith is actually not the word of god in Islam but jihadist and there likes found loop-holes in translation mainly while translating the Quran to deferent languages so they can make hadith an equal of the Quran ( a fact that most Muslims will disagree with one way or another ) and as most propaganda they produce through Wahhabi funding is based in such fact , using the terrible conditions most Muslims live under ( dictatorships and lack of freedom ...etc.) it found its way into some Muslims minds specially with the wahabi media showing westerners converting to Islam through the Wahhabi system.

the truth is that propaganda reach most of the world specially after 9-11 , and its thought to be the Islam core belief , namely the verses in Quran ( many) that instructs killing and the fabrication of Islamic history that includes there core belief , which in all cases wrong and at the same time not the actual core belief of Islam , mainly because (and ask real religious scholars) are not correct as translated to the west and are taking out of there context as most Muslims take Quran as a whole sentence in its entirety …( i might elaborate this if needed )
So what’s actually protested here is truly the non-Islam inside Islam
There are 2 reasons I’m writing this
1- Not in defense of Islam but to base criticism on actual facts and real knowledge
2- Not to mistake the current violence of Muslims with religious violence, because it’s not, it’s a herd reaction as described by Le Bon, but also an engineered one as described by Bernays

i don’t believe (even given the history) that there’s no hope, but i think the game played with other religions is not going to work with Islam because it’s entirely deferent ideology, the way criticism is directed towards them and with the terrifying conditions they live under they’ll defiantly take a defensive reaction towards any criticism < you don’t beat someone just got out of a major accident, to him it will be a matter of life and death and if you corner a dying lion…

There’s hope if such effort and criticism were beneficial and was directed to the actual root of the problem which is mainly not the Quran but the hadith driven Wahhabis, if you could take the Wahhabis out there’s hope for a reformed Islam

Finally my main point is , Sam or others point of view of Islam specifically is lacking of real knowledge of the religion itself and the conditions causing Muslims to behave in such manners , because searching the same history books they also can find that those who commented the crime on 9-11 killed Muslims too in countries like Egypt and Syria and Sudan ( and a lot more countries) and not for the lack of faith of suspicion of being infidels ( as they would call them )< they just killed them with clear contradiction to the Quran .
2- The argument against Islam fails to take into account the social psychology and its behavioral pattern in Muslims societies and the purpose that Muslims will start to take refuge into Wahhabism

[ Edited: 23 September 2010 01:23 PM by theFreethinker]
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Posted: 24 September 2010 09:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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theFreethinker - 23 September 2010 05:18 PM

don’t have much hope for Islamic reform at this point, given what the books say.  Christians can ignore parts of scripture and come out relatively tolerant, but Islam is a religion of world domination, subjugation, and intolerance.  Many “heroes” have tried, and failed miserably.

Now i heard Sam as well speaks about similar issue (and he wrote so as well , Mr. Hitchens also shared some of that opinion except he sees all religious faith on the same level…etc.

I honestly Disagree with both and the quoted sentence, I’ve heard Sam saying he “read” the Quran and hadith, and always wanted to ask which?
The reason for such question that 1- such matter specifically about the hadith is often debated on the Muslim societies
2- and most importantly a Translated Quran is not a Quran…and claiming to understand it just by reading a translation is sincerely non-beneficial in nature,  why?
a Quran translation is either the work of the Fundamental extremist who translate verses according to their point view , or non-Muslim scholars (rarely found) and its lacks somewhat understanding of Arabic words of the time period…
to elaborate more , Arabic as language is not really understood the same now and when the date the Quran supposedly came to be, so certain words have a meaning back then that’s a deferent one now and that’s one point the fundamentalists play into their hadith based ideology.
Now i gather from some time and a lot of observation of most of the talks regarding Islam that most of those who criticize it actually know little about it or the issues facing it and facing the Muslim societies and this is a basic problem
the new age fundamental jihadists base there propaganda ( and the Wahhabis as well) on the hadith and that’s for a reason , the hadith is actually not the word of god in Islam but jihadist and there likes found loop-holes in translation mainly while translating the Quran to deferent languages so they can make hadith an equal of the Quran ( a fact that most Muslims will disagree with one way or another ) and as most propaganda they produce through Wahhabi funding is based in such fact , using the terrible conditions most Muslims live under ( dictatorships and lack of freedom ...etc.) it found its way into some Muslims minds specially with the wahabi media showing westerners converting to Islam through the Wahhabi system.

the truth is that propaganda reach most of the world specially after 9-11 , and its thought to be the Islam core belief , namely the verses in Quran ( many) that instructs killing and the fabrication of Islamic history that includes there core belief , which in all cases wrong and at the same time not the actual core belief of Islam , mainly because (and ask real religious scholars) are not correct as translated to the west and are taking out of there context as most Muslims take Quran as a whole sentence in its entirety …( i might elaborate this if needed )
So what’s actually protested here is truly the non-Islam inside Islam
There are 2 reasons I’m writing this
1- Not in defense of Islam but to base criticism on actual facts and real knowledge
2- Not to mistake the current violence of Muslims with religious violence, because it’s not, it’s a herd reaction as described by Le Bon, but also an engineered one as described by Bernays

i don’t believe (even given the history) that there’s no hope, but i think the game played with other religions is not going to work with Islam because it’s entirely deferent ideology, the way criticism is directed towards them and with the terrifying conditions they live under they’ll defiantly take a defensive reaction towards any criticism < you don’t beat someone just got out of a major accident, to him it will be a matter of life and death and if you corner a dying lion…

There’s hope if such effort and criticism were beneficial and was directed to the actual root of the problem which is mainly not the Quran but the hadith driven Wahhabis, if you could take the Wahhabis out there’s hope for a reformed Islam

Finally my main point is , Sam or others point of view of Islam specifically is lacking of real knowledge of the religion itself and the conditions causing Muslims to behave in such manners , because searching the same history books they also can find that those who commented the crime on 9-11 killed Muslims too in countries like Egypt and Syria and Sudan ( and a lot more countries) and not for the lack of faith of suspicion of being infidels ( as they would call them )< they just killed them with clear contradiction to the Quran .
2- The argument against Islam fails to take into account the social psychology and its behavioral pattern in Muslims societies and the purpose that Muslims will start to take refuge into Wahhabism

Thanks for stopping by, though I’m rather disappointed with the same tired arguments I keep hearing over and over again.

Why has the quran not been translated into english by a group of dedicated muslim scholars, like the OT, and other works?  Probably due to lack of experience in translating, given that the entire arab world has only translated about 10k books into arabic in the last millennia, which is approximately what Spain translated into spanish . . . each year.

As for “a translated quran is not a quran”, this is a bad argument, for the very fact that the fundamentalists can read and understand it, and act in the manner they do, in accordance with their interpretation of the quran.  The point I put forward does not require a translated quran, for its words have been translated for us in the actions of the fundies.  Removal of Wahhabis constitutes genocide, considering that this is a sect of people, not an actual book (they feel only the hadith and quran are reliable texts, all others are rejected).

As I understand it, the Hadith is the words of the prophet, a supplement to the quran.  I have heard the “thousands of hadiths” line before, and I wonder just how terrible arabs are at understanding their own language.  If there are that many translations, then the words of the prophet may as well be a dictionary, written in no particular order, with no real message whatsoever.  Were that the case, it would not be part of the religion, but instead a repository of arabic words and their meanings.  It IS part of the religion, therefore the phrasing must coalesce into something resembling sense.  If the words of the prophet are similarly cogent, i.e. there is one accepted historical wording, then there cannot be that many hadiths.  You can only interpret a given sentence so many ways, while still conforming to the tone and message of sentences previous and following.  As this latter scenario is obviously the case, we need only look to christianity and recognize that the less intolerant, violent, and generally snobbish a christian is, he or she can be reasonably expected to reject much of what is written in the bible.  The fundamentalist christians, however, adhere to every “jot and tittle of the law” as commanded by Jesus in Matthew 5.  Therefore, a correlation can be made between two abrahamic faiths: the more fundamentalist they are, the closer they live by the message of their books.

Your arguments pointing to the ill behavior of other nations has no bearing on this discussion.  Islam is not innocent just because the rest of the world is guilty.  Islamists must own up to their own behavior, take responsibility for their own actions, just like the rest of us do.

“The argument against Islam fails to take into account the social psychology and its behavioral pattern in Muslims societies” - Some of the richest countries in the WORLD are muslim countries.  They have everything they need.  As Sam has pointed out, nothing explains the actions of fundamentalists and the depredations of muslim countries better than Islam.  There really is no huge difference between the history of the middle east and the history of Europe.  They have conquered each other, spilt blood within and without, done terrible things to their own people and to their neighbors.  However, Europe has moved beyond mud huts and pissing contests over metaphysical propaganda, while many arab countries have not.  This cannot be explained away by reference to a “bully”, there are countries in africa and east asia with far more convincing sob stories, but who have not exploded into suicidal violence against the west.

Oh, and by the way, criticism of Islam is NOT the same as beating muslims physically.  This is nonsense.  If you can’t tell the difference, find someone willing to do both to you, and let me know what you come up with.  Muslims are not a “dying lion”, they’re a lion gnawing its own feet off.  Can they reform?  I doubt it, unless the entire discourse surrounding Islam is radically changed, and the books propping it up are widely ignored.

You reject criticism as unhelpful, saying we should both respect muslims and treat their bad ideas gently.  I have met 5 year-olds with more self confidence than the muslims you’re speaking about.  Even if I’m wrong, and I have misquoted and/or mischaracterized Islam in my criticism, who cares?  Christians, Jews, and Hindus do NOT throw temper tantrums and call me a racist and a bigot if I happen to misuse one of their books in a critique.  As they say here in America, “cry me a river, build a bridge, and get the f$%@ over it”.

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Posted: 24 September 2010 01:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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hmmm
you either misunderstood what i said or you just want to stay on the attack wagon ...either ways , actually your respond is the one lacking both evidential truth and honest knowledgeable opinion .

Arabs translated a lot of books not only in the last “millennia” but they do so daily and books are being released as well in English so please have a true source to your information (verifiable data) or just don’t claim things that aren’t truthful.
as for why they didn’t translate by scholars…i answered that question and if you stopped being just aggressive and read carefully what i said you would’ve understood exactly what i said ...which wasn’t in defense of an ideology or wrong ideas, it wasn’t even in defense of any one , it was just an information that i saw lacking , its not a warn out argument its an argument that you just as Muslims refuse to take responsibility for .

as i said , and i will return to add more in answering to you post , there’s shared responsibilities whether we discuss them as Intellectual people or you can just ignore them as what you claim old argument ...oh where have you heard that argument before , please refer me to something , I’d like to know who said what.

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Posted: 24 September 2010 04:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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“evidential truth” - For the translation figures, see the 2003 study by the U.N. Development Program.  Also referenced in the 2001-2004 Arab Human Development Report (the latter written by arabs).  10,000 total in the last 1000 years.  In addition, muslims make up 20% of the worlds population, and contribute ~1% of the worlds scientific papers.  I can continue if necessary, and you are welcome to refute these claims with evidence of your own, I’ll be waiting.  I haven’t seen the more recent reports, but I doubt they have doubled their efforts in the last 5 years on either subject.

Where have I heard your arguments before?  How about every night on CNN, MSNBC, or more recently, here:

http://fightingcommiesforhealthinsurance.wordpress.com/2010/09/08/christopher-hitchens-is-a-creep/

I know you attempted to answer my question about the translation with some appeal to the ‘delicacies of arabic’.  Truth be told, its not as special as you seem to think.  Latin came clear just fine, the only reason the quran hasn’t been translated satisfactorily into english is that nobody can agree on what it says.  Every attempt by individuals has been heavily criticized, with no apparent central theme from the critics, and no concerted attempt to do better by arabic scholars.  Your objections to a translation are the same objections raised by christians and jews, yet the bible has been translated into almost every language. 

Muslims are welcome to object continuously to a concerted effort at translation by saying it’s not possible, but don’t expect the rest of us to lap up nonsense like that.  They can translate it properly, or accept the criticism as their own damn fault.

Alternatively, you can accept that there are translations that are “good enough”, from which secularists have found sufficient evidence to hold Islam responsible for suicidal violence by muslims.

Its lose-lose, but it’s your move.

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Posted: 24 September 2010 05:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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Now hoping we now resolve to reason and understanding of the issue rather than pointless aggressiveness

you said

As I understand it, the Hadith is the words of the prophet, a supplement to the quran

Now as i said on both my previous posts , the reason such arguments arises is the lack of genuine understanding of the Islamic Dogma and i don’t mean at all to be arrogant but if you’re a cosmologist and i argued with you about black holes you have the right to till me “no you’re misinformed”, and that’s what I’m saying.
the problem with the quoted statement is the following
even Sam understand this , the Quran is as believed by Muslims is the Direct word of god so what word of prophet that can be a supplement to it ,can’t god say it for himself?
that question is a debate always pressing on the Muslim Community amongst Scholars , between those who see reason and the radical hadith based ideology ...what the problem with hadith .
hadith is not a verified source because of the previous question why have 2 < one is the word of god and the other is for prophet , a prophet is a messenger ( in Islamic belief system ) and that’s exactly what he does delivers a message so why take his word as orders or take them at all ?
now before i go any further in this , it wasn’t my intention to discus this specifically because it will take threads to explain each part of the issue my argument was that you a non-Muslim ( what ever your preference is ) by using those arguments against Islam you’re giving the radicals a win over the Moderates whom already having hard time , you’re making what they say a self fulfilling prophecy, and for just proving you’re right and all others wrong ( and that’s all you’re doing ) loosing a good winnable battle against radicalism.

I wonder just how terrible arabs are at understanding their own language

do you understand any Arabic?
Do you know Latin?
that’s exactly you’re argument , Arabic when used in the age of the quran some words were used in a more general manner and the radicals are using the current narrow understanding that also varies from one Arab country to another.
if you understood Arabic i would’ve given you hundreds of examples , and here were scholars of Islam that stopped the radicals on there trails because they knew how to confront them in that matter but what I’m sure you don’t know that radicals long before you come to know then assassinated such scholars and turned those left to silence in fear of the same action. so the scholars are not lazy or unwilling , they are afraid to be killed by terrorist ...did you know that ?

the rest of the arguments in that paragraph is irrelevant to the issue , as i said you can’t claim for Christianity what you claim for islam they’re 2 different things ...entirely different.

“The argument against Islam fails to take into account the social psychology and its behavioral pattern in Muslims societies”

you commented on this and i still see no any consideration for that, what you’re saying is only a pointless comparison between 2 different worlds ...
let me till your beautiful Europe gave home for terrorists when they were chased by arab countries and they started there campaign against he Muslim countries in the beginning of this century from countries like England who took them as political refugees and now attack them as terrorists ... get your history right .
and you asked =

Can they reform?  I doubt it, unless the entire discourse surrounding Islam is radically changed, and the books propping it up are widely ignored.

are you serious?
I’m sorry but how come you know nothing what so ever about the content of a book and claim it needs to be ignored ?
what books?
which ones?
both ways i truly have no issue of you having such opinion , my issue is with opinions based on false data.
those who want to reform (which is similar to there original version of Islam ) already exist and i repeated this time and again, they are battled everyday by radicals who takes such claims as the ones you make as bunches to those who want to reform

and you really didn’t understand the example as i intended it , i never meant Islam by dying lion < i meant the majority of Muslims who believe in reform but being battled against it , now have you lived ( not visited) in a Muslim country < do you know the conditions they live under< i heard the example of Tibetan Buddhists , and its such a weird one, when was the last prosecution for a mass crowd of them ?
do you know the propaganda I’m speaking about ?
let me till you , they til the Muslim masses that 3 million muslims were killer in Iraq and Afghanistan since the war started ...3 million , and people take this as truth, in Muslim countries prosecution for thought is a daily thing , please stop using an insulting examples , not insulting to Islam ...insulting to all Intelligent beings, again get your data right and criticize the way you want but don’t just drop pointless meaningless claims based on false data and insist that they’re correct .

You reject criticism as unhelpful, saying we should both respect muslims and treat their bad ideas gently

I never said such sentence
i said

if such effort and criticism were beneficial and was directed to the actual root of the problem which is mainly not the Quran but the hadith driven Wahhabis,

which one of other solutions ,I’m not saying its the only one and i never dismissed criticism as you claim

the quran hasn’t been translated satisfactorily into english is that nobody can agree on what it says.

again i ask you do you know arabic?
better yet
what is the word “relevant” translates into arabic ?

don;t search Google , it translates badly because some word in arabic has no accurate translation into English and vise versa

the word “????? ” is in arabic ( i don’t know if it will show what does it mean in English.?
it has 3 basic meaning one of them has no English word to translate into like the word Zeitgeist but that arabic word has no meaning in English what so ever and it was reffed to in Paulo coelho in his novel the Alchemist ( the arabic word).in Google you’ll find only 1 translation

again , don’t claim what you don’t know , I’m not defending any one all I’m doing is stating facts that you have no knowledge of what so ever ...
the UN are you kidding! what does that statistic prove ? proves exactly what I’m saying ...most muslims live scared to even think and you in the comfort of you’re home and freedom of speech not even trying to accurately and fairly evaluate there terrible situation as people and humans above other things , all your concern is to prove that ..“hmmm they are religious so they are responsible for what they have and they can change it” ...you know what? you’re still dead wrong, try to go live as a Saudi citizen for 1 month in Saudi Arabia and then come and state those claims which helps no one what so ever but your status at this argument and thread.

Alternatively, you can accept that there are translations that are “good enough”, from which secularists have found sufficient evidence to hold Islam responsible for suicidal violence by muslims

 

there is not 1 verse or its variants of translations in quran or hadith that allows or permit suicide , in Islam suicide is forbidden
and i told you there is 1 understanding that all muslim know but the radicals are using a twisted hadith based strategy to twist the understanding but not the meaning , if you have an example I’ll easily answer it.

i have no “move” as i read your new post ...it’s not a game
its whether you have correct data to base your argument on or you have nothing and so far you are interpreting your own nonsense


I’m Secular freethinker but people need to be humans 1st

[ Edited: 24 September 2010 06:11 PM by theFreethinker]
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Posted: 24 September 2010 07:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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Forget I asked, this is a complete waste of time.  I’m not going to go chase all these cats you let out and put them back into their cages.

Every new point you have brought up is answered by my previous two posts.  Sort through yourself.

Ciao.

PS - Zeitgeist is german, not english, and requires (at least) two phrases to be properly translated into english.  I get it, arabic is complicated, but so are other languages.  TRY HARDER, everyone else is working at it.

PPS - “your respond is the one lacking both evidential truth…” -> “UN are you kidding! what does that statistic prove ?”  Proves you don’t care about data.

PPS - “so the scholars are not lazy or unwilling , they are afraid to be killed by terrorist ...did you know that ?” - Yes, actually, and I’m surprised you admitted this.  Had I written what I originally intended, namely, “scholars and intellectuals were routinely eviscerated by roving bands of religious lunatics, naturally selecting, as it were, for scholars and intellectuals who did not try very hard”, you would be screaming racism, childish historical knowledge, or some other nonsense in the service of your apologetics.  If you are a “Secular freethinker”, I’m a fundamentalist Jain.

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Posted: 24 September 2010 08:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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Forget I asked, this is a complete waste of time.  I’m not going to go chase all these cats you let out and put them back into their cages.

there is no cats ...what’s the purpose of any conversation,arguments or even debate?
everything have some reason , and if he reason is to make things better so everything is open for debate , but such (again) aggressiveness only is derived from the sole purpose of agreement for the sake of it.
I’m not the one with cats and dogs…and i have no cages ( although i have a cat named kitty )

Every new point you have brought up is answered by my previous two posts

Its a miracle…you must be speaking to “god”

speaking of prophecies

PS - Zeitgeist is german, not english, and requires

i said

one of them has no English word to translate into like the word Zeitgeist

the word colored in red “like” shows that i mean that zeitgeist is similar to the arabic word and is not easily translated to English ( thats the meaning of the sentence, so…i already said what you’re repeating !!!

and i don’t have neither had or must try harder, it is the concern of Muslims and for their own benefit.

Yes, actually, and I’m surprised you admitted this

please don’t be…surprised

as it were, for scholars and intellectuals who did not try very hard”, you would be screaming racism, childish historical knowledge, or some other nonsense in the service of your apologetics

apologitics!!!
nonsense!!!...me, now I’m surprised (and I’m rightful to be)
name one scholar that was assassinated?( hope Google Helps), lets make it harder, an Egyptian Scholar ?

If you are a “Secular freethinker”, I’m a fundamentalist

wow…if you’re a fundamentalist i must be Santa

how Intelligent when people turn to being personal and sarcastic ( and somewhat insulting)


if you actually had any intention of nice Intelligent chat or conversation we had a good chance…you insisted on belittling the conversation and opinion you think opposes yours.

if you decided to come back to continue this chat in a decent intelligent manner I’m here , and lets talk about what ever point in the thread individually and 1 by 1 , and as i repeated numerously I’m in no bodies defense I’m presenting my point of view based on knowledge and experience.
keeping in mind your assumption of the world uprising against Muslims is more fairytale-like than the belief it self… reformation is easy but only when “decent” people try

http://www.google.com.eg/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBUQIDAA&url=http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:4Sb600o-9hoJ:www.jamestown.org/single/?no_cache=1&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=449+Al-Qaeda’s+Egyptian+Prophet:+Sayyid+Qutb+and+the+War+On+Jahiliya&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=eg&client=firefox-a&ei=DnGeTJKFJI-54gaDlbDaDQ&usg=AFQjCNGQITMIHaM5mzIcV51VVpkfrkYpnw&sig2=iElFypjiHKPnzrbUjfgXEw

find

Al-Qaeda’s Egyptian Prophet: Sayyid Qutb and the War On Jahiliya
Publication: Terrorism Monitor Volume: 1 Issue: 3

or read all the issues it will be beneficial

“People seem to enjoy things more when they know a lot of other people have been left out of the pleasure. “( not my quote)

[ Edited: 25 September 2010 03:01 PM by theFreethinker]
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Posted: 25 September 2010 04:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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First, you say:

“and here were scholars of Islam that stopped the radicals on there trails because they knew how to confront them in that matter but what I’m sure you don’t know that radicals long before you come to know then assassinated such scholars and turned those left to silence in fear of the same action. so the scholars are not lazy or unwilling , they are afraid to be killed by terrorist ...did you know that ?”

I reply, surprised but in agreement, having been aware of this:

“- Yes, actually, and I’m surprised you admitted this.  Had I written what I originally intended, namely, “scholars and intellectuals were routinely eviscerated by roving bands of religious lunatics, naturally selecting, as it were, for scholars and intellectuals who did not try very hard”, you would be screaming racism, childish historical knowledge, or some other nonsense in the service of your apologetics.  If you are a “Secular freethinker”, I’m a fundamentalist Jain.”

Then you literally reject your own words:

“nonsense!!!...me, now I’m surprised (and I’m rightful to be)
name one scholar that was assassinated?( hope Google Helps), lets make it harder, an Egyptian Scholar ?”

^^ Seriously, this isn’t worth the pixels.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8096776.stm

I’m done with you, you can’t even agree with yourself.

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Posted: 25 September 2010 11:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
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i said
*and here were scholars of Islam

the word “were” shows it was in the past, see i told you you’re just trying to prove your opinion is correct and another is false.
i wonder where have we seen this before?
oh yes…radical religious faith
there were stopping
it’s like when you say , “i used to read”

and you say
*Then you literally reject your own words:


point out the contradiction please , enlighten us

about the assassinated scholar , you show the amount of false data you provide , but weirdly Google didn’t help , you haven’t even tried to look in the link i provided


the 1 (of many ) scholars that was assassinated by radicals , was Al thahaby, after being kidnaped from his home and killed few days after
here is a translated article because western media couldn’t care less about terrorism back then
http://translate.google.com.eg/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=ar&tl=en&u=http://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/????_????_??????

another one who had an assassination attempt but survived was al sharawy
both knew how to stop radicals and both were silenced one way or the other

what i write is not for you , I’m done with you the second you continued being aggressive for no obvious reason, i only had hoped that i was wrong and a beneficial conversation can arise at any point but apparently i wasn’t,
i was sarcastic of the sentence you agreed to because although you did agree you refuse to acknowledge it has any rule in this argument and continued the argument as is.


anyway ...it was interesting talking to you

[ Edited: 25 September 2010 11:10 AM by theFreethinker]
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Posted: 25 September 2010 02:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
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Fine, since no one else seems to be showing up, and we can’t possibly be encroaching upon anyone else, lets just hash this out till we beat the piss out of each other.

First, a little housecleaning:

the word “were” shows it was in the past

I know, notice my wording:

scholars and intellectuals were routinely eviscerated by roving bands

You are arguing a point we agreed on.  Do you understand why this could be frustrating?

false data you provide

What?  You never falsified the data, you just didn’t like it.  I can’t help that.

you haven’t even tried to look in the link i provided

You have never provided a link, aside from the one that comes AFTER this accusation.

I was sarcastic of the sentence you agreed to because although you did agree you refuse to acknowledge it has any rule in this argument and continued the argument as is.

Your going to have to translate this into something that makes sense.  Try being specific about things like “acknowledge it”, “this argument”, and “argument as is”. 

Nothing you have said comes anywhere close to offering a reason for hope.  Dead scholars, untranslatable holy books, innocent religion;  the whole thing sounds like a massive conspiracy.  If you’re here to tell me I don’t know arabic, your wasting your time.  If you’re here to tell me there are violent fundamentalists killing scholars, again, wasting your time.  If you’re here to tell me not to criticize Islam. . . see where this is going?  I’m not interested in apologetics, I don’t believe any of the abrahamic religions are innocent, or benign.

If you’re here to offer hope, I’m all ears.

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Posted: 25 September 2010 03:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]  
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good we could come to some sort of terms…

You are arguing a point we agreed on.  Do you understand why this could be frustrating?

I do and i hope you do too.
let me clarify it
we agree on this point, and the core of all my posts revolves around that issue.
that generalization against all Muslims at this point is unbeneficial(IMO), because what ever criticism they’re subjected to is in the core related to radical ideology.
the point we agree at shows that they don’t deeply follow such ideology, its rather a social reaction they blundered into because simply few years before that they fought that same radical ideology, specially the people on southern Egypt (as an example) always apprehended terrorists hiding in there region.
I’m not arguing anybodies innocence I’m simply saying that putting the lot in the same basket rots the lot.
(the basket we all agree is rotten)

What?  You never falsified the data, you just didn’t like it.  I can’t help that.

if we agree as stated in the previous point the data is rendered false…
the falsehood of one thing does not mean(necessarily) it’s proven false , it can mean that there’s no supporting evidence or reality shows otherwise…and in all cases both are true in this matter.
In short there were scholars who taught the principles of Islam using only the Quran and when the hadith was used was only as a fantasy story book, those still exist and they’re called(Al-Qur’anion) or in English “people of the Quran” to separate them selves from the radical Muslims who call them selves “people of the Hadith” ( that’s what the radicals call them selves)
and as i said before In the quran if you’re not knowledgeable in Arabic you’ll be tricked into believing the radical point view because in translating the quran its essential to use the meaning that was used in that time period not any other, and most of the radical Ideology is based on denying such fact and leave it open to there own interpretation.
now doesn’t that makes it clear that a separation between the 2 is needed.

You have never provided a link, aside from the one that comes AFTER this accusation.

yes I’m sorry i forgot to paste the link , i fixed it now and you’ll find it in post#9

If you’re here to tell me I don’t know arabic,....etc

I’m not here for you , neither to till you anything.
you Believe what you want to believe, but when you criticize anything
1- you need to have a good amount of genuine data from different sources
2-analyze such data and make conclusions
3-make your criticism based on those data based conclusions.
(plus you really don’t know arabic smile )

I don’t believe any of the abrahamic religions are innocent, or benign.

You’re convictions are yours, we “may” one day have such argument or debate
but when you say “you’re not interested in apologetics and yet debate about it ...it means you’re open to debate!

If you’re here to offer hope, I’m all ears.

I already did.
your conviction of Islam as an abrahamic faith is irrelevant to what I’m saying, and here Its again in short

convict anything, but at this point of time the actual enemy to all people (Including Muslims) are the radical hadith Fundamentalists, in the criticism realm putting all muslims under attack as a strategy is wrong IN MY OPINION (which is not obligatory) why?
because Muslims tend to take the side of anything attacked by the west specifically , so you’re basically giving the “Bad Guys” what they want and accelerating there plan.
why do Muslms take the radicals side? its something caused by years of occupied lands and Colonies so they tend to never take the occupier side.

lets hope I’m Understood CORRECTLY this time.

[ Edited: 25 September 2010 04:08 PM by theFreethinker]
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Posted: 25 September 2010 05:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]  
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if we agree as stated in the previous point the data is rendered false…

The data remains true, but now has an explanation.  There have still only been ~10k books translated into arabic in the last 1k years, and arabs still constitute 20% of the worlds population, while contributing ~1% of the worlds scientific papers.  That roving bands of religious fanatics are to blame is not a point in favor of the religion.  That this is not an isolated event is most certainly evidence against the religion.  Some ideas are just plain bad, pure and simple.  When the results are so egregious, as happened, and continues to happen, with communism, we tend to stop debating whether or not the adherents are “true” communists or not.  We call it a bad idea, and get rid of it, opposing it wherever it crops up.  This does not happen with religion, but I think it should.

(the basket we all agree is rotten)

Now we’re getting somewhere.

as i said before In the quran if you’re not knowledgeable in Arabic you’ll be tricked into believing the radical point view because in translating the quran its essential to use the meaning that was used in that time period not any other, and most of the radical Ideology is based on denying such fact and leave it open to there own interpretation.

START TRANSLATING IF YOUR SO KNOWLEDGEABLE.  Seriously, I don’t know how many times I have to say this, get on with it!!!!  You say the radicals are such a minority, yet complain that the entire faith is frozen in terror by extremists, and that scholars are unable to translate the quran due to fear.  THEN, you turn around and start making claims about what the books say, and just blabber on about my not knowing arabic, or just blame the whole problem on the west.  Well, to be honest, it doesn’t seem like it fucking matters, does it?  You can continue making excuses, and obfuscate the contents of the books, but until a “better” translation is produced by a group of scholars with a pair of balls, I can only read what is translated already, and gauge the actions of the adherents. 


I would like to provide a couple links for some light reading, countering your points here:

http://www.islamiccall.org/our_faith.htm

http://www.themodernreligion.com/terror/wtc-distortion.html

http://www.slate.com/id/2266154/

I think, however, that we’re rapidly floating off the point, here.  Far too much time is spent on attempting to tease out the “true” meaning of Islam, or the “real” christians. These two concepts are illusions, constructed by men and women who are certain that some benevolent deity exists, and has written a book for us. Through the course of our trials in attempting to discern what this deity has put down, we have discovered every possible method of justifying our every desire. The books essentially take very human drives, magnify them, and root their justification outside reality. This separation of our moral and ethical impulses from reality on is the REAL problem with Islam. Belief that the creator of the universe has given us homework while we wait for the end of the world has been a massive diversion from the problems we should have been facing, and ultimately have begun facing, in a progressively secular world.

In it’s present form, Islam stands unique in the worlds religions as the one most currently suited to justify extremism. The links you sent me can be matched, case for case, with links of other muslims spewing hate, intolerance, and violence. “now, every Tom, Dick and Abdullah gives fatwa.” (from links provided above). There is obviously a problem with “unauthorized” fatwas, but the deeper issue here is adherence to fatwas, regardless of origin or authenticity.

why do Muslms take the radicals side?

Good question, but your answer sucks.  Siding with murderously intolerant, suicidal maniacs bent on armageddon, because you don’t like colonial powers, is irrational, dogmatic, and nonsensical: all the hallmarks of a good religious tradition.

lets hope I’m Understood CORRECTLY this time.

If arabic is your first language, I would assume this to be a hopeless venture, based on your claims about the language, and the science surrounding cognitive translation for second language.

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Posted: 25 September 2010 07:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]  
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10k books translated into arabic in the last 1k years

now that’s the type of DATA that i call false (not entirely)
when you make such claim you at least name the source of such number…
now i will not till you , that Arabs translate million book a year but the actual number is currently 330 book a year. not much yes.( again we can easily discuss the reasons without the use of our arrogance)
but i don’t understand why do you either fail or refuse to take the social and historical differences between most arab countries under Dictatorships and any European country into account.
the rest of that paragraph i agree with what you said except for small part I’ll explain later on

Now we’re getting somewhere.

we can…if we want to

START TRANSLATING IF YOUR SO KNOWLEDGEABLE.  Seriously, I don’t know how many times I have to say this, get on with it!!!!  You say the radicals are such a minority,


who are you asking to translate , have you read anything of what i wrote ?
how many minority dictatorships destroyed nations and committed genocides?
If anyone writes He is captured(by police in most arab countries) or killed, if captured he gets a fake trial and be sentenced as “kafer” or in English Infidel, and that’s something to you might seem worth it but to most people in these countries it means they are vanished from there homelands and separated from their wife’s and probably never seeing there children again ....now why would they do that? for you
and you provide me with links like it’s a holy text, those are silly radical sites and the analysis of the same claims, they’re there for propaganda purposes


THEY CONTROLS MOST OF THE MEDIA USING THE OIL MONEY, AND ANY OPPOSITION IS NOT TO GET THROUGH AND ERASED AS IT APPEARS.
 

again another example for you
(The most controversial work is that of Ali abd al-Raziq, an Islamic Scholar and Shari’a judge who caused a sensation with his work “Islam and the Foundations of Governance” (Al-Islam Wa Usul Al-Hukm) in 1925. For the first time in Muslim history, he argued there was nothing in the texts that made it obligatory that Muslims had to have the Caliphate form of religious government and that they can choose a system that suits them. This publication caused a fierce debate especially as he recommended that religion can be separated from government and politics. He was later removed from his position.)


there were people who tried and there’s still people who try but your media doesn’t till you about them and they fear for there lives.

spent on attempting to tease out the “true” meaning of Islam

Who’s talking about the true meaning of Islam , I’m talking about treating people as human beings

Good question, but your answer sucks.  Siding with murderously intolerant, suicidal maniacs bent on armageddon, because you don’t like colonial powers, is irrational, dogmatic, and nonsensical: all the hallmarks of a good religious tradition.

I’ll go pass the silliness of that reply and ask you
how long have you lived under occupation ? (for once try to answer a question strait)
no dear, your assumption sucks.

your selective manner of phrases you emphasize at is a mystery to me
do you want to create the illusion you stated in your first post ” there is no hope “?
is that what you want to “believe” ?
OK. go ahead mate, go raise a huge army(or pull it) and go to Muslim countries and kill them all, every last one of them.
better yet, let them be ignorant as they are , Don’t waste your precious time trying to Educate them one way or another , just leave them to Ignorance and it will kill them.

Is it moral to judge 1.2 Billion Humanbeings according to your knowledge alone
is it moral to suggested exterminating them or Forcing an evolution of thought upon them?
these are humans, they are people with lives and children and hopes and dreams and above all most of them have…morals

i agree with every word in your first post , but i don’t agree with your ideology
yes they need to change now, but they also need help…an outside help
Don’t ask me or them to translate so arrogantly , you want to change something be part of that change or ...

[ Edited: 25 September 2010 09:41 PM by theFreethinker]
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