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Posted: 27 September 2010 12:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]  
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Zewil and Bayoumi alone ( just 2 muslim scientist ) account for more that that

Are you daft?  You’re not actually suggesting that two scientists can produce 1% of the worlds scientific papers . . . are you?

so 1- you can verify this data and make sure it s true 2- when it’s verified it mean its impossible there’s a relation between the 2.

Just read the article, chase his source material if you must, I’m not budging off this point until you accept it.

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Posted: 27 September 2010 02:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]  
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Just read the article, chase his source material if you must, I’m not budging off this point until you accept it.

Ok first to clear this out of the way…I’m not going to accept it ( the way you interpreted it) why? because the reasons are more than just religion and we might if we succeeded to carry this conversation through get to discuss each reason in details.
for now though I’ll use that article by professor Jim Al-Khalili as a blue print , in which I’ll comment and clarify whats within it or what wasn’t mentioned because after all its scientific study that take into account politics.

I’m just asking you to read it openly and look at it with understanding the actual reality and not our philosophical contemplation of it .

\at 1stt he Mentions that Muslims states are growing in number and they have some of the richest states and the poorest and in that regard they still “somewhat” disconnected to science. as his own words

hese include some of the world’s wealthiest nations, such as Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, as well as some of the poorest, like Somalia and Sudan. The economies of some of these countries – such as the Gulf States, Iran, Turkey, Egypt, Morocco, Malaysia and Pakistan – have been growing steadily for a number of years, and yet, in comparison with the West, the Islamic world still appears somewhat disengaged from modern science.

Now lets us e the names for the richest countries…Saudi Arabia, Kuwait.
yes they’re very wealthy nations but also the majority of the radical concentration is there as well , so you’ll find weird statistic ( if you try to read both development reports 2004-2010)
you’ll see that these countries have more internet access that most European countries, they have a mobile phone for there entire population , most women go to schools…( please read the report you posted and the 2010 report)
so with growing economy and good education and technological advancement why are they behind?
YES because the radical Ideas , i agree with you 100% , those idea’s is forced upon people but does that mean that the muslims of these countries as people are effected (and defected) beyond any hope?
NO, why? , 1- if you look at the statistics you’ll find that when people are given the chance they took it, they learned, and improved according to what they have.
2-research how many relgious and political prisoner on there countries, and you’ll find that theres even amongst those radical infested societies , there’s movement amongst there young to free those imprisoned , to free there minds…and more importantly change there reality

what caused such dilemma ?
let me till some history , when “alsoud” the first king of suadia wanted to unite the country agains the Ottoman powers at that time he found the ally on some radical extremest names “Mohamed bin abd alwahab”( from where the name wahhabi comes from ) and they agreed that when united they share the power, soud have the political and economical power and abdel wahhab gets the education and religious power.( i’m tilling it very briefly)
so the consequence of such agreement today that the Wahhabo radical (that’s the cause of all this ) have money and wealth beyond imagination to control the masses plus they radical man , power, and such dilemma spread on the gulf area namely on Kuwait and Qatar and some parts of yemen, and add them Pakistan and Iran( and we may talk about Iran separately)

now the problem here is political more than religious,if you fixed the politics you fix mostly everything, and if you want to address this exact point we could do that and talk specifically about that region.

The leaders of many of these countries understand very well that their economic growth, military power and national security all rely heavily on technological advances. The rhetoric is therefore often heard that they require a concerted effort in scientific research and development to catch up with the rest of the world’s knowledge-based societies. Indeed, government funding for science and education has grown sharply in recent years in many of these countries and several have been overhauling and modernizing their national scientific infrastructures. So what do I mean when I say that most are still disengaged from science?


now lets address other countries like Turkey, Egypt, Morocco, Malaysia, Tunisia , lebanon ( although Lebanon is not muslim but just arab state)...
these are developing countries and from those you have to remove Turkey why, ?
Turkey is not an Arab state neither its a Muslim state, Turkey may have Muslim Majority but like the US have a Secular constitution and secular laws.
( check it if you don’t believe me)

now the rest ...again every thing applies to the rich applies to them except the radicals…
so as an example Egypt have few radicals and peole get alot of freedoms but whas the proplem ?
its surely not religious because in egypt you’ll find a secular political party and individual , you’ll find Atheism…and freedom of speech to a certain extent, ask in most hospital in europe or US , Canada..etc and you’ll find a genius egyptian doctor, ask at any university and you’ll find one ...what the issue then?
Corruption and political dictatorship.
the government s of these states see science and complete freedom practice and openness to the world as a threat to there power and existence so they don’t mind allowing some radicalism to control the masses, radicalism that most people of these states oppose and refuse but they have nothing to do against it, in Algeria the army rules and puts a large number of radicals in prisons and they use them , they allow them to go out from time to time to show people that if such government didn’t exist the radicals will destroy them and have control of the country, the same strategy used by the bush administration after 9-11 showing the pole that with out the measure they took a terrorist will be bombing there cities every day.
a fear strategy to oppress the masses… but does that mean there’s no hope? again as i showed you people rise and engage science , it doesn’t mean that these states is great but it means the these people desire change.


Now let me get to the numbers that i Disagree with most of it…and I’ll explain why 1st
the study made by the UNESCO is based in national bases , meaning that number of scientific papers presented from within these counties, not taking into account that most of the scientist in these countries spend more time in forging countries and submit there paper through the institutions they research at , why?
look at the following number that you didn’t notice

0.34% of their overall gross domestic product on scientific research between 1996 and 2003 – just one-seventh of the global average of 2.36%

so the research situation in these countries is bad but why< is it religiously blocked?
NO, its politically blocked , because dictatorships spend most of the money on armies and weapons and (then steal the rest ) , and again make your own research about political corruption on Muslim countries ( specially arab states) and you’ll see that i
I’m not making things up as you said before, ITS know fact, look the military budget for any of these countries and see how much doesn’t make from the entire yearly state budget.

so again ITS NOT religious ( despite religion is wrong or not ) , when we research we have to look at actual evidence and not what we want them to be.


Now the most important fact that made him wrong at this point and 2 paragraphs only as follows

Muslim countries also have fewer than 10 scientists, engineers and technicians per 1000 of the population,

and the entire following paragraph till the end of that paragraph

But it is the quality of basic scientific research in the Muslim world that is of more concern….etc

the reason for such thing is know , so whether he doesn’t actually know that fact or he didn’t want to go into politics.
the fact is at least 70% of muslim scientists go to do there researches on foreign countries like Germany,England, U.S.A, France…etc, the big issue here , that when ever they come up with something that proves there talent they are offered citizenship to these countries , some of them accepts and drops his own nationality and others keep both and few refuse , because mainly when you refuse the citizenship of the country that funds your research the institution you’re working at fires you example?
Ahmed Zewil- US citizenship
Farouq albaz - US
Magdy Yaqub - British
all the above and more ( to not waste time on names ) are Egyptian who studied in Egypt and had there masters from Egypt and only left to do there PHDs and they have both the nationalities.
an example for the ones who refuse
Abubakr Bayoumi, mathematician of 2010-  he was offered the German citizenship but he had to drop his egyptian nationality , he refused and ultimately came back to egypt…luckily he continues his research from his own country.

i hope this point is clear, and please feel free to inquire on your own and see if you can find an arab or muslim scientist in your country that doesn’t have your countries citizenship and he only got it so the research ...you know what i mean.

That why the study and professor Al-Khalili got it wrong and he i think tried to counter that when saying

But there have been some outstanding Muslim scientists, not least the Pakistani theoretical physicist Abdus Salam (1926–1996),

and now notice what he said next in the same article

Although Salam was a pious Muslim, he was excommunicated by Pakistan in the 1970s because of his non-orthodox religious convictions and adherence to a relatively obscure Islamic sect called the Ahmadis

so he was a Muslim from a country that not only have radicalism but also have dictatorship and oppression , but he won a Nobel prize.
so is that religious?

Now allow me to copy the next paragraph on its entirely because in it the Professor argues exactly my point with almost the same words ( ill put it in the next post due o limitations)but let me quote few

The gradual decline that nevertheless took place did so for a variety of reasons, mainly due to the political fragmentation of the Islamic empire and weaker rulers no longer being interested in patronage of scholarship and learning.

and one can see the weakness and intellectual laziness of the argument that the decline should be blamed on an anti-science backlash from a more conservative Islam.

the past quoted sentences are not mine but by professor Al-khalili which ill post that entire paragraph on the next post.

and he continue into his next paragraph saying

Far more telling than the argument that it is religious conservatism that impedes scientific progress in the Muslim world are the antiquated administrative and bureaucratic systems many OIC countries inherited long ago from their colonial masters that have still not been replaced. This is compounded by a lack of political will to reform, to tackle corruption and to overhaul failing educational systems, institutions and attitudes. Thankfully, things are changing fast.

I really find no point to continue what’s clearly same view i share with Professor AL-khalili he said in a latter paragraph

Let us look briefly at the Middle East, where one can find a number of exciting new projects that have received considerable publicity within the region.

then he mentions amongst others 3 very important scientific Models that’s being done ( all of them is now fully operational) 2 of them are in the midle of the radicals 1 in saudi Arabia and the other is in Qatar

doesn’t that shows the well to change , the desire to improve ?

My friend There’s Hope If you Desire like them to see one.

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Posted: 27 September 2010 02:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]  
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The following paragraph and the quoted material in the past post by me is an extract from an article by professor Jim Al-Khalili

the site requires registration (free) if you want to read the entire article.

One problem is that too many Muslims see modern science as a secular, even atheist, Western construct, and have forgotten the many wonderful contributions made by Muslim scholars during the height of a golden age that began in the first half of the 9th century and continued for several centuries. Brilliant advances were made in everything from mathematics, astronomy and medicine, to physics, chemistry, engineering and philosophy. It was an age epitomized by a spirit of rational enquiry at a time when most of Europe was stuck in the Dark Ages.

But this freethinking, curiosity-driven quest for knowledge slowly went into decline. I should make it clear that this downturn took place several centuries later than many in the West think, for original advances in medicine, mathematics and astronomy continued to be made well into the 15th century. The gradual decline that nevertheless took place did so for a variety of reasons, mainly due to the political fragmentation of the Islamic empire and weaker rulers no longer being interested in patronage of scholarship and learning. All of this coincided with the Renaissance in Europe moving in the opposite direction, which triggered the scientific revolution of the 16th and 17th centuries. Add to this the later effects of colonialism that led to a kind of malaise and collective amnesia within the Muslim world about its own rich cultural heritage, and one can see the weakness and intellectual laziness of the argument that the decline should be blamed on an anti-science backlash from a more conservative Islam.

Nevertheless, it is sad but true that today many religions around the world see modern scientific disciplines such as cosmology or evolution as undermining their belief systems. Compare their view with that of the great Persian polymath al-Biruni (973–1048): “The stubborn critic would say: ‘What is the benefit of these sciences?’ He does not know the virtue that distinguishes mankind from all the animals: it is knowledge, in general, which is pursued solely by man, and which is pursued for the sake of knowledge itself, because its acquisition is truly delightful, and is unlike the pleasures desirable from other pursuits. For the good cannot be brought forth, and evil cannot be avoided, except by knowledge. What benefit then is more vivid? What use is more abundant?” Thankfully, enough Muslims now reject the notion that science and Islam are incompatible. In fact, given the current climate of tension and polarization between the Islamic world and the West, it is not surprising that many Muslims feel indignant when accused of not being culturally or intellectually equipped to raise their game when it comes to scientific achievements.

original article
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/print/42134

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Posted: 27 September 2010 07:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]  
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You still don’t get it.

This:

According to data from the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) and the World Bank, a group of 20 representative OIC countries spent 0.34% of their overall gross domestic product on scientific research between 1996 and 2003 – just one-seventh of the global average of 2.36%. Muslim countries also have fewer than 10 scientists, engineers and technicians per 1000 of the population, compared with the world average of 40, and 140 for the developed world. Between them they contribute only about 1% of the world’s published scientific papers. Indeed, the Royal Society’s Atlas of Islamic-World Science and Innovation reveals that scientists in the Arab world (comprising 17 of the OIC countries) produced a total of 13 444 scientific publications in 2005 – some 2000 fewer than the 15 455 achieved by Harvard University alone.
But it is the quality of basic scientific research in the Muslim world that is of more concern. One way of measuring the international prominence of a nation’s published scientific literature is via its relative citation index (RCI): this is the number of cited papers by a nation’s scientists as a fraction of all cited papers, divided by its own share of total papers published, with all citations of its own literature excluded to prevent bias. Thus, if a country produces 10% of the world’s scientific literature but receives only 5% of all citations in the rest of the world, its index will be 0.5. In a league table compiled in 2006 by the US National Science Board of the world’s top 45 nations ranked by their RCI in physics, only two OIC countries even register – Turkey with 0.344 and Iran with 0.484 – and only the latter shows a marked improvement between 1995 and 2003.

is data.

This:

One problem is that too many Muslims see modern science as a secular, even atheist, Western construct, and have forgotten the many wonderful contributions made by Muslim scholars during the height of a golden age that began in the first half of the 9th century and continued for several centuries. Brilliant advances were made in everything from mathematics, astronomy and medicine, to physics, chemistry, engineering and philosophy. It was an age epitomized by a spirit of rational enquiry at a time when most of Europe was stuck in the Dark Ages.
But this freethinking, curiosity-driven quest for knowledge slowly went into decline. I should make it clear that this downturn took place several centuries later than many in the West think, for original advances in medicine, mathematics and astronomy continued to be made well into the 15th century. The gradual decline that nevertheless took place did so for a variety of reasons, mainly due to the political fragmentation of the Islamic empire and weaker rulers no longer being interested in patronage of scholarship and learning. All of this coincided with the Renaissance in Europe moving in the opposite direction, which triggered the scientific revolution of the 16th and 17th centuries. Add to this the later effects of colonialism that led to a kind of malaise and collective amnesia within the Muslim world about its own rich cultural heritage, and one can see the weakness and intellectual laziness of the argument that the decline should be blamed on an anti-science backlash from a more conservative Islam.
Nevertheless, it is sad but true that today many religions around the world see modern scientific disciplines such as cosmology or evolution as undermining their belief systems. Compare their view with that of the great Persian polymath al-Biruni (973–1048): “The stubborn critic would say: ‘What is the benefit of these sciences?’ He does not know the virtue that distinguishes mankind from all the animals: it is knowledge, in general, which is pursued solely by man, and which is pursued for the sake of knowledge itself, because its acquisition is truly delightful, and is unlike the pleasures desirable from other pursuits. For the good cannot be brought forth, and evil cannot be avoided, except by knowledge. What benefit then is more vivid? What use is more abundant?” Thankfully, enough Muslims now reject the notion that science and Islam are incompatible. In fact, given the current climate of tension and polarization between the Islamic world and the West, it is not surprising that many Muslims feel indignant when accused of not being culturally or intellectually equipped to raise their game when it comes to scientific achievements.

is opinion.

I draw different conclusions than he does, but I use the same data. 

You claim the governments and institutions in the muslim world, running their countries by Islamic law, are radicals.  I assert that any group mainstream enough to hold the reins in numerous countries is anything but radical.  If the US was being run by Pat Robertson, I would be saying the same thing about christianity.  This is the difference, really, between Islam and Christianity: Christianity is being actively tamed in the west, Islam is not being tamed as it should in the east.

The individual who wrote the article makes the same appeal to colonialism as the root cause of Islamic society being wayward in it’s pursuit of scientific knowledge, and it’s sidelined aims at furthering scientific research.  That many countries are finally putting money into facilities is certainly a step in the right direction, but the real problem is elucidated in this quote:

But it is not simply a matter of throwing money at the problem. Even more important is having the political will to reform and to ensure real freedom of thinking. For example, Nader Fergany, lead author of the United Nations’ 2002 Arab Human Development Report, has stressed that what is needed above all else is a reform of scientific institutions, a respect for the freedoms of opinion and expression, ensuring high-quality education for all, and an accelerated transition to knowledge-based societies and the information age (Nature 444 33).

The issue is whether Islam is beneficial today for the spread of scientific knowledge.  Since the return to orthodoxy in the 13th century following the Mongols sacking of Baghdad, the answer has most certainly been an emphatic NO.  What you see in many muslim countries, and coming from many muslim scholars, is a careful resurgence of free thought, oft swatted down by orthodoxy. 

This study done by Pew Research Poll in 2006 suggests that rejection of evolution correlates directly with widespread religious literalism.  Notice Turkey at the very bottom, below even the US.  I would also remind you that no other muslim country is even listed.  It is generally safe to say that Turkey is the most liberal of muslim countries, yet only 25% of the population accepted evolution, in 2006.  Evolution is a fact, and as the debate in the US attests to, the only real reason to reject it is on religious grounds.  This fact obviously refutes the “adam hypothesis” presented in the abrahamic tradition, and it is clear from this study who wins the thought games when it comes to science vs. religion for muslim countries.  That the US is also present at the bottom can only point to the overwhelming fundamentalist christian population there, as the vast majority of the countries at the top of the list are FAR more secular than either the US or Turkey.

When 87% of scientists accept the fact of evolution(or 99%, according to this study), regardless of their acquiescence on the theories explaining the process, it is delusion and dogmatism that keeps any significant portion of the population at large from accepting their conclusions.  Many medical procedures are supported by far less evidence, and doubted by far more experts, yet the public widely trusts what any doctor says, even on issues as controversial as the Healthcare Bill.  Find a passage in Deuteronomy linking doctors with devil worshippers, and that poll would read more like the evolution poll.

This is what is lacking, and is the core problem that I outlined in my first post.  When criticism of the faith, of it’s dogmas and logical consequences, is stifled by even moderate muslims, the religion is a problem.  The bottom line here is that adherence to religious texts as factual goes against a truly open-ended discussion about the world, and constitutes a clear impediment to intellectual honesty.  This is a serious problem as it relates to science, because the real reason that science works is what is known as peer-review.  Criticism is the only thing keeping science moving forward.

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Posted: 27 September 2010 09:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]  
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You still don’t get it.

No you’re the one who doesn’t get ...or to be honest, it appears that you only want to criminalize Muslim selectively
i lost all interest in this conversation , but i find my self inclined to answer all the false claims you provide whether now or in the future , not for you but for any bypassing humanbeing not mistake your argument for an actual fact.

Now what you call as data from Professor khlili words that you selectively chose

According to data from the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) and the World Bank, ...etc.

He himself said the following when he describe your argument particularly ( he replied to your argument in the article you linked us too and used as source) ...what he said was

and one can see the weakness and intellectual laziness of the argument that the decline should be blamed on an anti-science backlash from a more conservative Islam.

notice the words in red and this time i made them even bigger he called your argument weak intellectual laziness
let me explain why its weak and lazy, because secular thinking wasn’t there when newton was born or with Einstein or with Galileo or…etc , most scientist were born into religious superstitious societies and it didn’t stop them , the fact the there religion preference changed ( for some ) is irrelevant.
they came out with religion around and weren’t effected by it. because simple it only influences the weak minded people on my honest opinion.

SO in how many ways do I have to say it , anyone agrees to your argument that muslims by being Muslims and just for holding a religion, whether its false fantasy or not, just for such thing are bad people, and there’s no hope but to let them to either rot or be forced ( by your own word) by negligence into thought evolution ...any one agree to this exact argument in my opinion either a racists or a man/woman with no moral values what so ever

I’m just showing you a mirror to look into and answer this one Question strait
is the above statement represent your opinion ?...( let me quote it again )

that muslims by being Muslims and just for holding a religion, whether its false fantasy or not, just for such thing are bad people, and there’s no hope but to let them to either rot or be forced by negligence into thought evolutionn

the question again
is the above statement( in the quotation) represents your opinion ?

I draw different conclusions than he does, but I use the same data.

you’re not allowed to use he same data…why?
because you don’t know how the data was collected , you don’t know what it represent , you don’t know the facts behind them and you have know experience what so ever in social
psychology
most importantly you’re using an old data, have you seen the new data and crossed references ?
have you done that and discovered that from 2004 to 2010 there was no improvement ?
NO you didn’t ,
so YOU CAN’T use the data because 1- ITS OLD 2- you don’t KNOW what changed.

so if i gave you now all the data in the standard model of the universe , you can till me why gravity is giving us so much problem when applied to certain issues like the black holes?
No you can’t , and if you do, it means nothing , you want to till us your scientific opinion about it, write a paper, present it , you might come up with a theory,and then will be widely studied and examined, and after a lot of time when its proven you can openly say yes that’s exactly whats happening…
non of the above scientific methodologies is applied to your argument , you just leave for few hours ( i doubt you’re reading what i write), and you’re not even trying to consider any of my points…you never brought the issue of political corruption,, never talked about dictatorship, avoided talking about history…
all this and more visible to anyone that would read this thread, and after all that you come back and till me that i don’t get it…
sorry, i can easily accept that you insult me ...but prejudice against a specific group of people ( any group whether Muslims or Jewish, Christians, Buddhists, Atheist…etc) THAT I WILL NOT ACCEPT.
I’ve shown you, and told you about many many issues away from religion, that affects these people and you had not a little regard to them , not a little compassion, you even ignore the points that i clearly told you we agree at.

I REFUSE your argument entirely unless you say it openly and clearly what is you stand on the above sentence in the quotation.

More over what i stated is not an opinion( the one you called opinion) , ITS FACTS, and the fact you either fail to verified by yourself or you’re lazy to do it is only your own problem , and it doesn’t make facts disappear…neither by calling FACTS opinions

and for you and other to know what my stand is
1-i agree with you that there religion like any other religion is definitely causing problemx and more, like the evolution example you made .
2- i agree with you that changes need to be made, and they are being made.
3-i don’t agree with you that the urgent major for Muslims specifically is there religion in general , because simply you don’t sure cancer with aspirin or Panadol, what you cure with those are the symptoms , and because we didn’t even addressed these symptoms we need to 1st cautiously give pain-killer and in the same time with the same level of cautious administer a small doses of cure, helping the obviously responsive case.
but the spinning around of the matter to make it look like a hopeless aim specifically to that specific group of people that i don’t only refuse but i REJECT.

There’s a moral line need to be kept in check , it can’t be allowed to crossed even it was crossed by the other side, because we lose that and without a doubt all hope is lost…not only for muslims but for all of us moral-less people

as aggressive this reply might be please don’t demand any apology for any suggestion i made, because simply you haven’t even sated your position other than “there’s no hope” , and that’s not a position, so a position must be declared.
also i asked a question , answering it or not is your choice but ignoring will obviously mean your agreement to the statement ,

here’s the only point I’ll discuss in case your answer is no .
what type of proof for hope you will consider valid.
what do you think should be done given the situation of the entire area.

anything i said wasn’t meant to be offensive but meant to demand a clear answer to a very moral issue.

[ Edited: 27 September 2010 10:12 PM by theFreethinker]
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Posted: 28 September 2010 07:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]  
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Now what you call as data from Professor khlili words that you selectively chose

Yup, I selectively chose the DATA portion of his article.

He himself said the following when he describe your argument particularly

His opinion, which I disagree with.  I am not alone in this disagreement, either.  Sam Harris himself disagrees with this argument.

that muslims by being Muslims and just for holding a religion, whether its false fantasy or not, just for such thing are bad people

I never said they were bad people, I said they were people with bad ideas.  Is it truly so hard to separate the religion from the people?

because you don’t know how the data was collected , you don’t know what it represent , you don’t know the facts behind them and you have know experience what so ever in social
psychology

You know this how?

so YOU CAN’T use the data because 1- ITS OLD 2- you don’t KNOW what changed.

Tell me what has changed.

so if i gave you now all the data in the standard model of the universe , you can till me why gravity is giving us so much problem when applied to certain issues like the black holes?

If I cared enough to look into black holes and gravity, yes, I could probably give you a rough outline.  I don’t have to contribute to the furthering of scientific knowledge to understand what we know NOW.

( i doubt you’re reading what i write)

busted.

you never brought the issue of political corruption,, never talked about dictatorship

Your arguments pointing to the ill behavior of other nations has no bearing on this discussion.  Islam is not innocent just because the rest of the world is guilty.  Islamists must own up to their own behavior, take responsibility for their own actions, just like the rest of us do.

“The argument against Islam fails to take into account the social psychology and its behavioral pattern in Muslims societies” - Some of the richest countries in the WORLD are muslim countries.  They have everything they need.  As Sam has pointed out, nothing explains the actions of fundamentalists and the depredations of muslim countries better than Islam.  There really is no huge difference between the history of the middle east and the history of Europe.  They have conquered each other, spilt blood within and without, done terrible things to their own people and to their neighbors.  However, Europe has moved beyond mud huts and pissing contests over metaphysical propaganda, while many arab countries have not.  This cannot be explained away by reference to a “bully”, there are countries in africa and east asia with far more convincing sob stories, but who have not exploded into suicidal violence against the west.

avoided talking about history…

The issue is whether Islam is beneficial today for the spread of scientific knowledge.  Since the return to orthodoxy in the 13th century following the Mongols sacking of Baghdad, the answer has most certainly been an emphatic NO.  What you see in many muslim countries, and coming from many muslim scholars, is a careful resurgence of free thought, oft swatted down by orthodoxy.

all this and more visible to anyone that would read this thread

Your right about that.

I’ve shown you, and told you about many many issues away from religion, that affects these people and you had not a little regard to them , not a little compassion, you even ignore the points that i clearly told you we agree at.

I have conceded those points, there are other factors involved.  I remain convinced that religion is the most powerful factor, and the one least likely to abate anytime soon.  Muslims are mightily attached to Islam, and this presents a problem, for reasons I have expressed ad nauseum throughout our exchange.  You can disagree, and have, but it is dishonest to pretend the arguments do not exist.

More over what i stated is not an opinion

Well, aren’t you special, just spewing facts left and right.  God must be jealous.  In the future, if you could SOURCE your facts, the remainder of the human race, myself included, who are not gifted with such omniscience, could verify your divine statements.  Thanks.

1-i agree with you that there religion like any other religion is definitely causing problemx and more, like the evolution example you made .

Then we merely disagree as to how influential the religion is.  I have, as you graciously noted, provided evidence in favor of that position, with sources.  I have not seen anything but opinion and anecdotes in favor of your position (i.e. there are scientists doing science, there are non-religious arabs, etc)

There’s a moral line need to be kept in check , it can’t be allowed to crossed even it was crossed by the other side, because we lose that and without a doubt all hope is lost…not only for muslims but for all of us moral-less people

I must again stress that I have not advocated any violence, I am merely opposing a bad idea, and doing so because, as the evidence seems to suggest, the bad idea is worse than any other factor.

what type of proof for hope you will consider valid.

Valid question, though I think I have already answered it:  Evidence suggesting that a vast majority of muslims are beginning to take the quran less seriously, and reality more seriously.  Evidence to suggest that the vast majority of muslims are not just opposing violence, but opposing religious literalism, opposing affronts to free speech, even about Islam.  I am sick of hearing the “they’re not true muslims” or “they’re not interpreting the quran like I interpret it” arguments.  These are the very arguments that will BURY their civilization, and drag the rest of us down with them.

i don’t agree with you that the urgent major for Muslims specifically is there religion in general , because simply you don’t sure cancer with aspirin or Panadol, what you cure with those are the symptoms , and because we didn’t even addressed these symptoms we need to 1st cautiously give pain-killer and in the same time with the same level of cautious administer a small doses of cure, helping the obviously responsive case.
but the spinning around of the matter to make it look like a hopeless aim specifically to that specific group of people that i don’t only refuse but i REJECT.

You don’t “cautiously give pain-killer”, you immediately begin invasive, debilitating procedures, commensurate with the aggressiveness of the disease you are fighting.  Doctors (not bloggers) treat cancer with chemotherapy, essentially firebombing any cells which contain the disease, killing vast numbers of surrounding cells in the process.  I have NOT advocated this approach with muslims, and the implications of this analogy AGAIN constitute an accusation of incitement to genocide.  I won’t bother requesting an apology, because you don’t recognize your ability to be wrong anyway. 

anything i said wasn’t meant to be offensive but meant to demand a clear answer to a very moral issue.

You keep trying to make this into a moral issue, painting me as evil and you as good.  Unfortunately, this has less to do with morals and more to do with bad ideas.

“Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things.” - Winston Churchill

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Posted: 28 September 2010 11:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]  
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I’m not going to quote any of what you said, because its not even an argument, it’s not an argument that sam haris disagrees…so what? has he given you any proof that his data is better than a scientist with arabic Muslim origins? No he didn’t

Now FIRST
let define Hypocrisy
Hypocrisy is the act of pretending to have beliefs, opinions, virtues, feelings, qualities, or standards that one does not actually have. Hypocrisy involves the deception of others and is thus a kind of lie.

And that exactly what you do, I’m not making you look evil, you are making yourself look evil it has nothing to do with me.

SECOND
you demand proof because You CLAIM i didn’t provide any
Fine
1- the un global corruption report
http://www.google.com.eg/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCIQFjAB&url=http://unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/apcity/unpan008450.pdf&ei=qiKiTP24BYrB4gb-3bmtAw&usg=AFQjCNE_-cmpjYY_VcRrEwqczhR-H8XLOA&sig2;=-JWVQIuy3UF1oDtYQy71xA
2-Elements of Corruption in the Middle East
http://www.google.com.eg/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=10&ved=0CE0QFjAJ&url=http://www.9iacc.org/papers/day1/ws5/dnld/d1ws5_ashuaibi.pdf&ei=qiKiTP24BYrB4gb-3bmtAw&usg=AFQjCNHSQMNaTKlz6JIfK9HLLf0X2nC7cA&sig2=YGKMf3FkX9vPqi9BWVXEtA
3-Middle East Regimes and Terrorism
http://www.middle-east-info.org/arabiran/exiles.htm
4-Human Rights in Arab and Muslim Countries
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2001/8/Human Rights in Arab and Muslim Countries
5-Human Rights in Arab Countries
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf16.html
6-Human Rights Issues in the Middle East - A Liberal Perspective
http://zionism.netfirms.com/Human_Rights.html
7-Corruption and freedom in Muslim world
http://uppercaise.wordpress.com/2010/08/08/state-of-the-muslim-world/
and finally
8-Muslim Scholar Talks About Challenges Facing Women in the Arab and Muslim Worlds
http://www.voanews.com/english/news/news-analysis/a-13-2007-04-30-voa39.html

Now , I’m not supposed to give you info , you’re supposed to give info based on your claims , so you bring 1 sourced data, which you didn’t get, you used ONE article by an arab scientist , and used just one paragraph of what he said and used it to your own benefit disregarding the rest of the article… That’s is called HYPOCRISY

NOW you have DATA, not sufficient to make a judgment but it proves your false claims

THIRD
Lets just make the Argument false for the hundredth time
EXAMPLE
A group of people ( lets say 10) all wearing Shorts and sandals, they were taken inside House “A” and were asked to clean it , they did so in 3 hour ....
The same group of People were again taken into house “B” , they are still wearing also Shorts and sandals, they again were asked to clean it, house “B” is a replica of house “A” , they did clean it, but it took them 11 hours !
now only an idiot will suggest that they took longer time because they were wearing Shorts and Sandal…

Back to reality…
Muslims 1000 years ago , under Islam , producing amazing science, that’s a historical fact ( check your own source), they at the time actually contributed Most of the science….
now the same group of people in the same lands with the same religion , nothing changed but the political and economical system , and they contribute little ( only an assumption ).
NOW only a lazy man with a weak intellectual logic will say ...hmmm it must be the religion
they took the Quran more seriously 1000 years ago and produced science and you claim that now when they care less it’s because of the Quran!!! do you even think of what you write before you write it ?

I never said they were bad people, I said they were people with bad ideas.  Is it truly so hard to separate the religion from the people?

THAT doesn’t answer the question , the obvious question which you avoided again…
let me make it clearer to you and to anyone might be reading.
Are you prejudice against all Muslims more than any other people with faith only because of there religion? that’s what’s obvious in all your replies.

You keep trying to make this into a moral issue

It’s A moral issue , it’s an ethical issue , i proved time and again…and again , that there religion may play part but not the most important one now a days.

now we have
1- political proof
2- Historical proof
3-logical proof
4- evidential proof ( by so many development programs that’s fully working as we speak)check 2009 UN report.

“Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body.

i don’t know if Churchill knew that that it was scientifically discovered that if you blocked oxygen from human cells and then introduced it again , the cells will kill themselves…( it’s scientific fact not a metaphor)
i don’t know if he knew that Pain creates anger as well , and it creates more conflicts that it solves.
i don’t know if he was around when the Electroconvulsive therapy required INFORMED CONSENT

INFORMED CONSENT

Here’s what i don’t like about your entire argument from the very beginning

You want people to change because it benefits you, not them.

[ Edited: 28 September 2010 11:53 AM by theFreethinker]
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Posted: 28 September 2010 01:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]  
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Spellcheck your posts; organize thoughts into sentences, separated by properly used punctuation; read through your post before submitting to eliminate silly little errors that make it nearly impossible to follow your thoughts.

Now , I’m not supposed to give you info , you’re supposed to give info based on your claims , so you bring 1 sourced data, which you didn’t get, you used ONE article by an arab scientist , and used just one paragraph of what he said and used it to your own benefit disregarding the rest of the article… That’s is called HYPOCRISY

Thats called data mining.  The actual data was from a report he referenced, but from which he had pulled the relevant information.  I probably should have gone directly to the study, but much of the remainder of the article was pleasant reading, and I didn’t feel we would disagree on the DATA presented.  I should have known you don’t know data from your nether regions, and would spend 5 posts denying anything but the opinion you agreed with.

The fact of the matter is that I provided numerous sources for numerous points I have made.  Your bad memory is not my problem.  The sources you have finally provided, en-masse from what appears to be a single google search, do not all constitute data.  The first one listed is data, but refers to corruption in the general region(MENA), for which I could provide corruption information from the rest of the world that would, if not match, at least provide comparable testimony to the corruption inherent in human society.  In deference to your stellar scholarship, I shall provide just this from which you can languish in the corruption present in just Europe.  Further information can be gleaned from a google search about South Africa, America, East Asia, Russia, etc.  Muslims are not the only ones to live under corrupt governments, be colonized by more powerful countries, or have their core beliefs criticized.  Yet you blame all societal ills on western powers, european colonialism, ANYTHING BUT ISLAM and it’s oppression of the adherents, both physically and mentally, and denounce any criticism of Islam as bigotry, racism, and immoral hate-speech.

Or, my personal favorite, plagiarizing the article:

NOW only a lazy idiot with a weak intellectual logic will say ...hmmm it must be the religion

The original interpretation of Islam was one of scientific inquiry, and free expression, open marketplace of ideas, etc(circa 700AD).  Then, it became a stifling orthodoxy in which none of these values required to foster scientific advancement were possible(circa 1300AD).  Aside from current political woes, all of which OTHER COUNTRIES have risen above, religion makes the clearest and most convincing argument for the backwardness of thought and stunted intellectual growth in Islamic countries.  IF IT WERE NOT the religion, you would have at least ONE muslim run country at the forefront of science, business, etc, given the head-start that Islam obviously had.

The question, I submit once again, is not whether “true Islam” is beneficial(or if it even exists), it is whether Islam as a guiding ideology is beneficial for progress, specifically for muslim countries.  I will again, for the 5th time, assert that this is not the case.  You have linked other factors, blamed other countries, and drawn attention to moderate muslims living in peace in other countries.  These points are red herrings in this debate, and as such are disregarded as soon as they are made.

Lets just make the Argument false for the hundredth time

Oversimplification of my argument, essentially just a straw man.  I’m not really sure what “cleaning” means in the metaphor, and “shorts and shirt” only have one recognized meaning, whereas religion can be interpreted many ways.  Metaphor fail.

i don’t know if Churchill knew that that it was scientifically discovered that if you blocked oxygen from human cells and then introduced it again , the cells will kill themselves…

non-sequitor:  It is a comment that, because of its apparent lack of meaning relative to what it follows, seems absurd to the point of being humorous or confusing.  I.e. wtf are you talking about?  Pain is useful to the human body because “It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things.  If you’re going to argue with an analogy (or anatomy, for that matter), at least put the entire thing in the citation.  That was a very short quote, not an unreasonable request, and it explained the whole message.  You neglected to include it, then pretended it didn’t exist and concluded that the message was silly.  If someone tells you they are going to fly to the moon on a banana full of helium, you would naturally criticize their methodology, and most likely their state of mind.  That was the message of the quote.  I can’t believe I have to explain something so simple just because you can’t be bothered to honestly represent what I have posted.  Can you at least admit that you have done this, just once, just as an olive branch?

Are you prejudice against all Muslims more than any other people with faith only because of there religion?

Making it red doesn’t make it more convincing, nor any more true. 

I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.

Not muslims.  Get it?  I criticize Christianity far more than I do Islam, but this is a post about ISLAM. 

It’s A moral issue , it’s an ethical issue , i proved time and again

ONLY when you mischaracterize my argument, like you did just above this.  Had I said that all muslims should die in a fire because they’re terrible people who follow an ideology that is natural to their character, then you would be justified (please take this out of context).  I have not advocated that, would not advocate that, and I am only speaking about the logical consequences of most people who adopt bad ideas about the world.  Islam is one of those bad ideas, for which I am paying special attention to, given that this is a post, and a forum topic, about Islam.  It is not because I hate islam, or are trying to demonize muslims or arabs, it is because I think Islam is one of many bad ideas that deserves criticism. 

Corruption in government, oppressive colonialism, despair, economic misfortune, military invasion, all of these things are influential on behavior.  I agree with you on these points.  I disagree with your assertion that Islam does not play the most powerful role, given the disparity of action between muslims and other peoples living under these conditions, today and in the past.  I also disagree with your assertion that Islam is not the most powerful hindrance on progress, be it scientific, societal, or moral.  We are currently discussing the hindrance of science, and while I doubt we will ever get past this, I am not afraid to debate it’s role in hindering morality either.

You want people to change because it benefits you, not them.

I want Islam, Christianity, and any other metaphysical propaganda that threatens the progress of society, to be criticized, marginalized, and rendered impotent in political discourse.  Of course this benefits me, but it also benefits mankind.  I don’t want a religious president, I want an American president.  I don’t want an Islamic nation, I want an intellectually vibrant nation.  I am completely OK with people believing in God, Allah, YWVH, w/e, I just don’t want them deriving important decisions about the future of mankind from books written in the dust and filth and barbarism of the previous millennia.  We have come a LOOOONG way since then, and there is absolutely no reason why we should not be approaching todays problems with today’s knowledge, wisdom, and intelligence.  Instead, everywhere I turn are examples of religious lunacy run amok, claiming access to divine knowledge and eager to impose ancient mythological wives-tales onto a modern world rife with devastating 21st century technology. 

At this point, I think it’s safe to say you haven’t read The End of Faith, by Sam Harris.  I would urge you to do so now.

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Posted: 28 September 2010 02:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]  
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Muslims are not the only ones to live under corrupt governments

when was the last time you were arrested for speaking out loud against you government?
were you imprisoned for it for 10 year and more?
how many political prisoners in your country or in Europe in general?
how many presidents or prime ministers you had in the last 15 years?

Stop twisting facts with immoral arguments

laziness with a weak intellectual logic

I STAND MY GROUND.
If you fail to see the comparison or you have your own lazy interpretation of history ...its your problem not theirs nor anyone else.
and describing it as a straw man, is the lazy man confusion strategy.

you have a comparison that need no interpretation of yours.
1- 1000years ago and before Muslims produced science .
2- now under the same religion don’t
3-the only change is the political system and governance.
There for
lazy interpretation idiot with a weak intellectual logic

as the rest of your reply is meaningless and irrelevant , I’ll processed without paying any attention to most of it

Making it red doesn’t make it more convincing, nor any more true.

Ok, Lets show the People the Question you’re answering Vaguely

The question was

Are you prejudice against all Muslims more than any other people with faith only because of there religion?

and your answer is

I am prejudiced against bad ideas.

I ask any decent human, does this answers the original question?
no, it states a different fact

again the question you fail to answer

Are you prejudice against all Muslims more than any other people with faith only because of there religion?

and i’m not interested in you opinion about bad ideas or how you define bad ideas…


Let me show others how immoral this is becoming

your original thread asks one question
Is there Hope ?
and said

Pull the troops, isolate the countries

are you aware that at least 50% of the problem is caused by the troops…please if you are rely that influential pull the troop and isolate the countries , there’s nothing more the radicals would want than an isolated environment where they can spread there venom

does that a question about religion, is it required to discuss the entire muslim society?
no

lets go to my first post .
did i defend that religion? or just explained few of its known to few people?
is it seen at any of it that I’m talking about how religion is good? NO
all i said was the muslim society is suffering of more issues that if fixed will fix the entire issue…
is that something bad to say?
is it a defense of Islam?
NO

now to all your following post let me quote a few of what you said

I see Turkey and think, “hey, maybe this is progress”.  Then someone is beheaded, or has acid thrown in their face

see how false your argument is…you mentioned turkey then mentioned beheading and acid throwing.
to unsuspecting reader this happened in turkey, because you didn’t mention otherwise, when actually this happened in Afghanistan and Pakistan only , and not because of religion but because of tribal barbaric inheritance wheres my source…bring me 1 verse of quran that states a beheading or mutilation of any king , just 1 verse in its correct context

I have met 5 year-olds with more self confidence than the muslims you’re speaking about.

Nice

“so the scholars are not lazy or unwilling , they are afraid to be killed by terrorist ...did you know that ?” - Yes, actually, and I’m surprised you admitted this.

and yet you say…

Why is this my problem?

so Muslims are under corrupted regimes, scholars are afraid for there life’s and you don’t care.
you said it , you incriminated yourself ...more than once
you by your own showed the immoral stand of your own argument…not me

(please take this out of context)

i haven’t taken anything you wrote out of context, the matter of the fact, you did.

Islam is one of those bad ideas, for which I am paying special attention too

Why
why the special attention?
If you have no intention to help why do you even care?

that’s my understanding of good human.
something bad caught my attention, i might criticize it ,but I’ll always take into consideration what caused it , and most importantly help the people involved to fix it.

your understanding of some type of creature
he see’s a bad thing a problem, he criticize it, he calls people to do so, he gathers those who share his same convection to criminalize those people.
did he fix anything?
no
does he have there interest in mind ?
no
does he care at all?
no.

you had plenty of time to explain your moral ground clearly and in simple words…
what you did to avoid showing that, confused anyone would read this with a lot of arguments about several issue , non of them states your moral stand.

Corruption in government, oppressive colonialism, despair, economic misfortune, military invasion, all of these things are influential on behavior.  I agree with you on these points.

good now we have 2 things agreed about.

I disagree with your assertion that Islam does not play the most powerful role,

This we will never agree about

please allow me to rephrase you sentence slightly

I disagree with your assertion that Christianity does not play the most powerful role in Ethiopia

again i will never agree with you on this, not because of the religion, and i hope you understand It this time.
Its because they suffer from far worse , your lack of experience to there day to day life IS whats creating the illusion to you that there religion ( what ever that is) has the bigger influence.

and i Disagree with half of the cases in the world , you can’t compare Europe and the US and Canada…etc, to countries like these, why?
Go live in Saudi Arabia for one week, just one , not in a hotel find an apartment and rent it
, go out in the streets and see what affects them more religion or politics
better yet , and you’ll not risk being killed, go to Egypt, do the same , at least there you’ll be protected…and then come back and till me that religion is the powerful influence you say its on them.

Arabs are not like western people, they are culturally different , and that why for most of them they always feel disconnected from them, they don’t see you as a peer , a fellow human,
they see you as an invader or killer or avid person that all he cares about is there land.

that’s how most muslims see the west , and please try to rely research this , what even convictions or believes you have about these people are entirely wrong.

i don’t need or have to, convince you, and i wont, if you truly want to know the truth you ow it to yourself, and if after you research extensively still kept your stand…so there’s nothing i can do, nothing anyone could do.


as for this thread, f you like to keep repeating these argument (false argument) , i have no problem what so ever to keep proving them false…but then, whats the point?
we could have different better conversations.

You want people to change because it benefits you, not them.

stands still

and i read the book…
of all the 4 horsemen,the one i disagree with the most, and…not have the same level of respect for like the others ( and i have great respect for the other 3 )is Sam Harris.
and that’s for a reason, Good one in my opinion.( have little respect for him if you didn’t get that )

looking forward to his next ” Moral Landscape “

[ Edited: 28 September 2010 03:05 PM by theFreethinker]
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Posted: 28 September 2010 04:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]  
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I feel that i owe you an explanation of exactly what distinction I’m trying to make here
There’s a difference Between Religion, and the people that hold the religion( most of them).

as simple as that.

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Posted: 28 September 2010 06:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]  
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I feel that i owe you an explanation of exactly what distinction I’m trying to make here
There’s a difference Between Religion, and the people that hold the religion( most of them).

as simple as that.

So you make a distinction between the religion, and it’s adherents.  Basically, one can be a bad idea, and one can be simply human.

Are you prejudice against all Muslims more than any other people with faith only because of there religion?

I am prejudiced against bad ideas.

Get it yet?

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Posted: 28 September 2010 07:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]  
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If your answer to

Are you prejudice against all Muslims more than any other people with faith only because of there religion?

is

one can be a bad idea (religion), and one can be simply human (people)


So we had no difference of opinion from the very beginning and lets leave it at that

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Posted: 28 September 2010 07:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]  
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Muslims are not the only ones to live under corrupt governments

when was the last time you were arrested for speaking out loud against you government?
were you imprisoned for it for 10 year and more?
how many political prisoners in your country or in Europe in general?
how many presidents or prime ministers you had in the last 15 years?

What does this have to do with my point?  I did not mention Europe or the US.  You don’t honestly think muslim countries are the only ones living under corrupt governments . . . do you?

you have a comparison that need no interpretation of yours.
1- 1000years ago and before Muslims produced science .
2- now under the same religion don’t
3-the only change is the political system and governance.
There for
lazy interpretation idiot with a weak intellectual logic

1- 1400+ years ago, and in fact, almost 1400 years before that was the first emerging template for the scientific method.  Give muslims a little more credit!
2- same name, different interpretation.  I thought you said the radicals interpreted the faith wrong?  Wouldn’t that suggest more than one interpretation?
3-see #2
Therefore,
another case in point of failed reasoning based on faulty assumptions, halting your thought process before you even get off the ground.

and describing it as a straw man, is the lazy man confusion strategy.

Your lack of comprehension about my response, or your inability to construct a proper metaphor, are both your fault.  It was a straw man because it was a caricature of my argument, not an honest representation of it, and you then proceeded to knock down the easy argument you constructed, while ignoring my actual argument.  If my arguments are “laziness with a weak intellectual logic”, why do you continue making all of the logical fallacies?

Pull the troops, isolate the countries

are you aware that at least 50% of the problem is caused by the troops

Yes, that is why I said “Pull” the troops, not “put” more troops in.

I see Turkey and think, “hey, maybe this is progress”.  Then someone is beheaded, or has acid thrown in their face

see how false your argument is…you mentioned turkey then mentioned beheading and acid throwing.
to unsuspecting reader this happened in turkey, because you didn’t mention otherwise, when actually this happened in Afghanistan and Pakistan only , and not because of religion but because of tribal barbaric inheritance wheres my source…bring me 1 verse of quran that states a beheading or mutilation of any king , just 1 verse in its correct context

First, it’s not an argument, its an anecdote.  As it happens, it is NOT a false anecdote, therefore your ‘argument’ is irrelevant.  Second, I don’t have to quote the quran, I can cherry pick a Hadith, or any one of the other books considered informative to the faith.  I would file “decentralized theological authority” under the ‘bad’ column for Islam, and as such I am not required to remain within the text you want me to.

so Muslims are under corrupted regimes, scholars are afraid for there life’s and you don’t care.
you said it , you incriminated yourself ...more than once

As long as they keep blaming the west for problems within their own societies, no, I don’t care.  America didn’t start out as a free society, it began as a british colony.  We send billions in aid to these countries, pay them billions more for oil.  They were once the epicenter of science, literally seeding the Renaissance for all of Europe, and they have dived into orthodoxy, striving for a life properly lived through the words of the quran.  This is mass ignorance and willful stupidity on a colossal scale, and muslims continue making the same choice that landed them into this pit: metaphysical always trumps physical.  I knew this stuff was nonsense when I was 12, and they’re insisting on basing their entire existence on it, damn the consequences. 

I am criticizing the religion, I am not a dictator, nor am I a scholar or religious fanatic killing scholars.  This is not my fight until it shows up on my doorstep.  I didn’t give two shits about Islam before the pious 19 change some flight plans and made history, but the more I learn, the less I seem to care.  There is no justification for suicidal violence against non-combatants, nor any reasonable approach to opposing factual science.  The excuses are just that: excuses.  Theres a saying, “Excuses are like ass holes, everyone has one, and they all stink.”

This next one is really one of my favorites:

(please take this out of context)

i haven’t taken anything you wrote out of context, the matter of the fact, you did.

Islam is one of those bad ideas, for which I am paying special attention too

Why
why the special attention?
If you have no intention to help why do you even care?

Why the special attention?  Well, had you quoted the context of my statement, you would have your answer.  I know, I know, lots of typing; here, let me help:

Islam is one of those bad ideas, for which I am paying special attention to, given that this is a post, and a forum topic, about Islam.  It is not because I hate islam, or are trying to demonize muslims or arabs, it is because I think Islam is one of many bad ideas that deserves criticism.

There, question answered.  What makes this one of my favorites is the quote above it, though.  You said “I haven’t taken anything you wrote out of context”, and then did so immediately.  Just . . . priceless.

You have done that thing again, where you’re dishonestly misquoting me in a lame attempt to make a point.  I have again caught you, and I got money says you do it again sometime in the next two posts.

I disagree with your assertion that Christianity does not play the most powerful role in Ethiopia

again i will never agree with you on this, not because of the religion, and i hope you understand It this time.

Ethiopians are becoming suicide bombers, rioting by the thousands over criticism of christianity, and were once the leaders in science and free inquiry, but now languish in the most abysmal ignorance?  Ouch.

Oh, just checked wikipedia, 34% of them are muslims, that explains it!

Lame metaphor is lame.  Again.

and i read the book…
of all the 4 horsemen,the one i disagree with the most, and…not have the same level of respect for like the others ( and i have great respect for the other 3 )is Sam Harris.
and that’s for a reason, Good one in my opinion.( have little respect for him if you didn’t get that )

The reason being?

[ Edited: 28 September 2010 07:54 PM by Reerr]
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Posted: 28 September 2010 09:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]  
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I thought we were finished

What does this have to do with my point?  I did not mention Europe or the US.  You don’t honestly think muslim countries are the only ones living under corrupt governments . . . do you?

you said

n deference to your stellar scholarship, I shall provide just this from which you can languish in the corruption present in just Europe.

  Yet you blame all societal ills on western powers, european colonialism, ANYTHING BUT ISLAM and it’s oppression of the adherents, both physically and mentally, and denounce any criticism of Islam as bigotry, racism, and immoral hate-speec

I thought we’re done with this ...
i never blamed anyone , i stated facts with evidence , go back to any so called"accusations” i made and you’ll find a link source

then again i never said Muslim countries are alone in there miserable experience, but someone like you will feel threatened because of the terrorism threat not because of islam , its because the muslim world sees it self in conflict with the west ... i said that a billion times already.

the reason for the questions are clear , if you don’t know how it’s like , spare us and them your judgment, again after you said

I am prejudiced against bad ideas.

again appears you’re attacking the people not the religion…!

please stop going back to things we already finished and lets get on with our life’s.

2- same name, different interpretation.  I thought you said the radicals interpreted the faith wrong?  Wouldn’t that suggest more than one interpretation?

now prove to me there’s different interpretation that’s widely approved by muslims?
i said the radicals ideas are used sometimes by the regimes to control the mass, i said the masses and scholar are afraid to act because of will know prosecution , persecution that arises from the regime fear that someone could it challenge it and its corruption, and i provided more than enough evidence to all above through so many ways ( whether you accept that or not) those who read will go back and read and see for themselves , i even proved it using your own sources.
again why are we discussing this again the main point was made ...whats the point?

another case in point of failed reasoning based on faulty assumptions, halting your thought process before you even get off the ground.

hmmm so you just like arguing. is that it?
Ok here’s all that you provided so far as source…
what nonsense are you saying, there’s not a single point i made that’s lacking a shred of reason, and I’m not going to repeat my self anymore , your the one that provided flase data , and when proved wrong through your own sources you started to say…oh i used the source but drawn different conclusion?
what nonsense is this, a source means an official recognized authority that agree entirely with you , giving the same data , drawing the same conclusion.
more over you provided a 6 years old number, not a statistic , not analysis by experts to that statistic , only a percentage and number , this is not source this is mambo jumbo,
although all this twisting and turning , i provided you with the latest data from that same statistic source , the UN development report of the year 2009-2010, and to this moment you didn’t even mentioned it or its data…
then you provided a link to an article by an arab physicist ,an article based on a documentary unluckily for you i watched, and you kept referring to it and i kept tilling you it proves my point , so you insisted, so from that same article i showed ou that all what you refer to is false, then what did you say?...i use the data but draw a different conclusion…again mambo jumbo nonsense.
you take 3 lines from more than 3 pages article and call that source…a source is whats defined above.

for some reason ( I’m aware of) you decided to turn what was an agreement and end of this silly pointless conversation into again a meaningless display of your ignorance.

Your lack of comprehension about my response, or your inability to construct a proper metaphor, are both your fault.  It was a straw man because it was a caricature of my argument, not an honest representation of it,

there’s truly no lack at my side, i got your “written in every silly book” metaphor, but your reply was strait and i wanted to be non-insulting,lazy argument and lack any kind of intellectual logic.

and if you don’t like my writing or language or manner or punctuation understanding ( or the lack of it) , just leave or stop this continues silliness.
are you trying to prove that every thing you said was write , because i said…

So we had no difference of opinion from the very beginning and lets leave it at that

so you thought to make it a home run…
oh , i believe that you believe every single crap you put on your posts , and that’s the disaster.
i agreed to meet half way , because it keep the ethical line uncrossed, but as you insist in crossing it let me till to please post more , it only shows more people what your real intentions are.
and soon we’ll get to cursing…although you started without me few posts earlier, but that’s ok, there’s still time to do it.


see now how ridiculously silly you make your self look

the following are your words

Islam is one of those bad ideas, for which I am paying special attention too

i quoted that , because that is the context but…lets wait and see.
you say because its your favorite part ( you obviously haven’t tried chocolate)

Why the special attention?  Well, had you quoted the context of my statement, you would have your answer.  I know, I know, lots of typing; here, let me help:

yes right…sorry for my hmmm i don’t really know , lets see the original that you posted

Islam is one of those bad ideas, for which I am paying special attention to, given that this is a post, and a forum topic, about Islam.  It is not because I hate islam, or are trying to demonize muslims or arabs, it is because I think Islam is one of many bad ideas that deserves criticism.

hmmm does that answer the following question

Why
why the special attention?
If you have no intention to help why do you even care?

no,
you have special attention to muslims because there a sub-forum on a discussion board for Islam?

and look what you said

It is not because I hate islam, or are trying to demonize muslims or arabs

i hoe this not out of context in your mind…
so you don’t seek to demonize muslims and you don’t hate Islam…good , but in reply to the following

so Muslims are under corrupted regimes, scholars are afraid for there life’s and you don’t care.
you said it , you incriminated yourself ...more than once

you stated

As long as they keep blaming the west for problems within their own societies, no, I don’t care

so you don’t hate them , but you don’t care about them…but why
here’s your reason

We send billions in aid to these countries, pay them billions more for oil.

fuck your aids, please if you know someone on the government till them to cut it off , cut it the fuck off.

for fuck sake go read some politics.
you giving billions as a bribe to corrupted regimes , a country like Pakistan allow all type of corruption , women are mutilated every day, children raped, and most probably they
‘re harboring bin-laden, why the fuck are you giving there government aids ?
your billions never make to the people , that’s why in every post i made that you don’t know how they live , but again with all the arrogance you come and till me we give aids…yes you maybe gave A.I.D.S, but not aids, this is the strew to me,
and you don’t really pay for oil (arab oil) these days as you’re told , suadi arabia is in dept to your country because of the war…go check.and if you pay , you use the same bribed regimes so you get 2 for the price of one ( or much more).
don’t fucking till me that the west has no rule on it , ask honest journalists and they will agree with me, ask honest politicians and they’ll agree with me, ask Jews against Zionism and they also will agree with me , ask any man with brains and little knowledge and he will agree with me ...don’t bring it up again unless you actually work for the US government.
and about the fucking aid
http://www.aawsat.com/english/news.asp?section=1&id=20636
http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=50189
http://www.codoh.com/zionweb/zionfired.html
http://altnews.asia/content/2010/07/08/usa-uk-and-sunni-arabs-promote-zionist-regime-mideast-dr-abdul-ruff

aids…fuck the aids.

LOOK HOW YOU DON"T HATE MUSLIMS…LOOK HOW YOU"RE NOT IMMORAL

Oh, just checked wikipedia, 34% of them are muslims, that explains it!

so Ethiopia with Christianity have riots and suicide bombers, and then you discover muslims , and that explains it…yes you have nothing against Muslims
at least try to cover your tracks right
you sure you don’t mean Somalia?( don’t answer it )

again i’m not making you anything what i quoted is in context and here’s the entire paragraph

Ethiopians are becoming suicide bombers, rioting by the thousands over criticism of Christianity, and were once the leaders in science and free inquiry, but now languish in the most abysmal ignorance?  Ouch.

Oh, just checked wikipedia, 34% of them are muslims, that explains it!

I’m not making you look like anything, you’re doing a good job yourself.

I’m tilling it to you strait ahead, I Believe and have very little doubt that what your implying is IMMORAL
every thing you write and do points only that way.

I tried with you to draw this into a decent friendly ground but…as Epicurus said

Is “He” able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is “HE” both able and willing?...etc


It appears you’re not willing…but anyways he was talking about “god”

 

The reason being?

If he asks I’ll till him
i said little respect and that means i have some respect for him

for the last time please lets end this conversation , it’s becoming Ethically Immoral

we agreed

theFreethinker - 28 September 2010 11:12 PM

If your answer to

Are you prejudice against all Muslims more than any other people with faith only because of there religion?

is

one can be a bad idea (religion), and one can be simply human (people)


So we had no difference of opinion from the very beginning and lets leave it at that

Lets leave it at that, lets consider this the end of this conversation…morally and decently.

[ Edited: 28 September 2010 10:55 PM by theFreethinker]
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Posted: 29 September 2010 05:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]  
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LOOK HOW YOU DON"T HATE MUSLIMS…LOOK HOW YOU"RE NOT IMMORAL

Thats sarcasm, calm down.

fuck your aids, please if you know someone on the government till them to cut it off , cut it the fuck off.

Would if I could.

[ Edited: 29 September 2010 05:12 AM by Reerr]
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