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If Jesus could really defy death…
Posted: 04 April 2012 04:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]  
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toombaru - 04 April 2012 02:59 PM

Nature makes the case for naturalism.
It can be observed, studied, evaluated over time.
Observations can be shared and their relevance can be determined or discounted.

Where did it come from ?

Nothing similar can be said of creationism.

so it nature the oposit of creationism ? or is it in the same category ?

 

All religion can say is about the nature of things is “That’s the way God wants it.” , “God’s ways are mysterious” or something equally inane.

nothing relevant said, so far…..

 

Mine are based on the observation of actual things.
The things you espouse are based an faith.

again : where did these actual things come from ?

A hummingbird can be held and studied.

so how did the Hummingbird came to be ? have you ever studied its fantastic capabilities ?

http://www.rae.org/revev5.html

The smallest bird in nature, and one of the most amazing is the hummingbird.7 Weighing only 1/14 of an ounce, he has much in common with a helicopter, flying backward and sideways and hover in midair. Its rate of metabolism is so high that it must feed almost constantly. But, since there are no rods in the hummingbird’s retina for night vision, its vital processes shut down to a state of hibernation at night. The nest of the hummingbird is not much bigger than a postage stamp, made out of thistledown and cobwebs. But, built into this pint­sized bird is one of the most complex flight mechanisms known. Consider the following:

× In the feathers, the quill is considered stronger for its weight than any structure designed by man.

× Flexibility of the quill allows the primary feathers at the wing tip to bend upward with each downbeat of the wing. This produces the equivalent of pitch in a helicopter.

× The quill constantly changes shape to meet the requirements of air pressure and wing position.

× The leading vane of the feather is narrower than the trailing vane. This feature causes the wing to operate like a propeller to give both lift and propulsion.

× The wing is an efficient double­jointed foresail, the inner half sloping at a slight angle to give lift like the wing of an airplane, while the outer half acts like a propeller.

× There is a jet assisted takeoff mechanism. A tuft of feathers at the junction of the wing adds extra airfoil surface during landing and takeoff.

× Enlarged muscles to operate the wings; almost 3/4 the weight of the bird.

× Higher metabolism, temperature, blood pressure, and a hyperactive heart contribute to the bird’s success.

× A remarkable system of respiration where the hollow bones provide an air sac system, providing buoyancy, a reservoir for respiration and an air conditioner.

× Air flows into the lungs in only one direction, providing a continuous supply of oxygen.

× Other features: streamlining, retractable landing gear, camouflage, migration navigation, and hibernation.

It is unreasonable to suggest that the hummingbird “developed” all of these features as a product of evolution gradually over millions of years. Time and chance cannot produce such design and order. Only God can!

I have a problem with a belief system that tells us that women are second class citizens

Where does the new testament say so ?

I have a problem when I am told that God is composed of a father, a son and a holy ghost and no one….....no one….... is able to explain that.

why is that a problem to you ?

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Posted: 04 April 2012 04:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]  
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toombaru - 04 April 2012 03:16 PM

I am tired of being politically correct to idiots.

sorry, but i do not spend time with people, that are not able to be polite, but think they need to insult others.

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Posted: 04 April 2012 05:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]  
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Lindoia - 04 April 2012 04:03 PM
toombaru - 04 April 2012 02:59 PM

Nature makes the case for naturalism.
It can be observed, studied, evaluated over time.
Observations can be shared and their relevance can be determined or discounted.

Where did it come from ?

Nothing similar can be said of creationism.

so it nature the oposit of creationism ? or is it in the same category ?

 

All religion can say is about the nature of things is “That’s the way God wants it.” , “God’s ways are mysterious” or something equally inane.

nothing relevant said, so far…..

 

Mine are based on the observation of actual things.
The things you espouse are based an faith.

again : where did these actual things come from ?

A hummingbird can be held and studied.

so how did the Hummingbird came to be ? have you ever studied its fantastic capabilities ?

http://www.rae.org/revev5.html

The smallest bird in nature, and one of the most amazing is the hummingbird.7 Weighing only 1/14 of an ounce, he has much in common with a helicopter, flying backward and sideways and hover in midair. Its rate of metabolism is so high that it must feed almost constantly. But, since there are no rods in the hummingbird’s retina for night vision, its vital processes shut down to a state of hibernation at night. The nest of the hummingbird is not much bigger than a postage stamp, made out of thistledown and cobwebs. But, built into this pint­sized bird is one of the most complex flight mechanisms known. Consider the following:

× In the feathers, the quill is considered stronger for its weight than any structure designed by man.

× Flexibility of the quill allows the primary feathers at the wing tip to bend upward with each downbeat of the wing. This produces the equivalent of pitch in a helicopter.

× The quill constantly changes shape to meet the requirements of air pressure and wing position.

× The leading vane of the feather is narrower than the trailing vane. This feature causes the wing to operate like a propeller to give both lift and propulsion.

× The wing is an efficient double­jointed foresail, the inner half sloping at a slight angle to give lift like the wing of an airplane, while the outer half acts like a propeller.

× There is a jet assisted takeoff mechanism. A tuft of feathers at the junction of the wing adds extra airfoil surface during landing and takeoff.

× Enlarged muscles to operate the wings; almost 3/4 the weight of the bird.

× Higher metabolism, temperature, blood pressure, and a hyperactive heart contribute to the bird’s success.

× A remarkable system of respiration where the hollow bones provide an air sac system, providing buoyancy, a reservoir for respiration and an air conditioner.

× Air flows into the lungs in only one direction, providing a continuous supply of oxygen.

× Other features: streamlining, retractable landing gear, camouflage, migration navigation, and hibernation.

It is unreasonable to suggest that the hummingbird “developed” all of these features as a product of evolution gradually over millions of years. Time and chance cannot produce such design and order. Only God can!

I have a problem with a belief system that tells us that women are second class citizens

Where does the new testament say so ?

I have a problem when I am told that God is composed of a father, a son and a holy ghost and no one….....no one….... is able to explain that.

why is that a problem to you ?

 

 

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Posted: 04 April 2012 05:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]  
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Lindoia - 04 April 2012 04:12 PM
toombaru - 04 April 2012 03:16 PM

I am tired of being politically correct to idiots.

sorry, but i do not spend time with people, that are not able to be polite, but think they need to insult others.

 

I find your naivety and unwillingness to see the illusory foundation of your blind faith in a creator that exists only in your own imagination.
You will never convince Tom Cruise or John Travolta that everything they believe is science fiction by being polite.
You will never convince a Nazi that Jews are human beings by being polite.
You will never convert a white racist or a homophobe by being polite.
Jonestown, Waco and Heaven’s Gate were the outcome of blind faith….....the very faith that parasatises your very own mind.
Politeness only feeds it.

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Posted: 04 April 2012 05:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]  
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Lindoia - 04 April 2012 04:03 PM
toombaru - 04 April 2012 02:59 PM

Nature makes the case for naturalism.
It can be observed, studied, evaluated over time.
Observations can be shared and their relevance can be determined or discounted.

Where did it come from ?

 

I don’t know.
No one does.
Merely saying, Because I can’t explain where it came from, I must have come from a creator, explains nothing.
If everything has to come from something, where did the creator come from?
(You have probably been told that (He) has been around forever.)

Nothing similar can be said of creationism.

so it nature the opposite of creationism ? or is it in the same category ?


No.
Creationism is a speculation.
Nature has a substantial reality.

 

All religion can say is about the nature of things is “That’s the way God wants it.” , “God’s ways are mysterious” or something equally inane.

nothing relevant said, so far…..


By saying that God created the universe ultimately answers nothing.
It merely pacifies the conceptual mind.

 

 

Mine are based on the observation of actual things.
The things you espouse are based an faith.

again : where did these actual things come from ?

 


again…...I don’t know.
Billy Graham and Al Sharpton don’t know.
Gandhi didn’t know.
The Pope doesn’t know.
.........actually…...it can’t be known.

A hummingbird can be held and studied.

so how did the Hummingbird came to be ? have you ever studied its fantastic capabilities ?

http://www.rae.org/revev5.html

The smallest bird in nature, and one of the most amazing is the hummingbird.7 Weighing only 1/14 of an ounce, he has much in common with a helicopter, flying backward and sideways and hover in midair. Its rate of metabolism is so high that it must feed almost constantly. But, since there are no rods in the hummingbird’s retina for night vision, its vital processes shut down to a state of hibernation at night. The nest of the hummingbird is not much bigger than a postage stamp, made out of thistledown and cobwebs. But, built into this pint­sized bird is one of the most complex flight mechanisms known. Consider the following:

× In the feathers, the quill is considered stronger for its weight than any structure designed by man.

× Flexibility of the quill allows the primary feathers at the wing tip to bend upward with each downbeat of the wing. This produces the equivalent of pitch in a helicopter.

× The quill constantly changes shape to meet the requirements of air pressure and wing position.

× The leading vane of the feather is narrower than the trailing vane. This feature causes the wing to operate like a propeller to give both lift and propulsion.

× The wing is an efficient double­jointed foresail, the inner half sloping at a slight angle to give lift like the wing of an airplane, while the outer half acts like a propeller.

× There is a jet assisted takeoff mechanism. A tuft of feathers at the junction of the wing adds extra airfoil surface during landing and takeoff.

× Enlarged muscles to operate the wings; almost 3/4 the weight of the bird.

× Higher metabolism, temperature, blood pressure, and a hyperactive heart contribute to the bird’s success.

× A remarkable system of respiration where the hollow bones provide an air sac system, providing buoyancy, a reservoir for respiration and an air conditioner.

× Air flows into the lungs in only one direction, providing a continuous supply of oxygen.

× Other features: streamlining, retractable landing gear, camouflage, migration navigation, and hibernation.

It is unreasonable to suggest that the hummingbird “developed” all of these features as a product of evolution gradually over millions of years. Time and chance cannot produce such design and order. Only God can!

 

 


Just because the conceptual mind can’t grasp how a complex organism evolved doesn’t automatically mean that it had to come through a creator.
That argument has been refuted too many times to number.
Where is this creator’s mind.
Is it housed in huge brain?
What is the mechanism that allows it to do all things it supposedly does.
Why did it create polio and small pox?

 

I have a problem with a belief system that tells us that women are second class citizens

Where does the new testament say so ?

 

How many of the disciples were women?

“Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.”
Colossians 3:18

With Christian women entering into the political arena more frequently, it is necessary to take a look at exactly what Christianity teaches about women. We are reminded, of course, of Republican presidential candidate Michele Bachmann’s remark about “submitting to her husband,” which means just that: Submission, not “respect” or any other sophistic excuse. Indeed, the same Greek word for “submissive” found in Colossians 3:18 - ???????? or “hypotasso” - appears also at Titus 2:9, in Paul’s exhortation for slaves to be submissive to their masters.

This Greek word hypotasso means (Strong’s G5293):

1) to arrange under, to subordinate
2) to subject, put in subjection
3) to subject one’s self, obey
4) to submit to one’s control
5) to yield to one’s admonition or advice
6) to obey, be subject

The fact remains that the male-dominant patriarchal religions, such as Judaism, Christianity and Islam, require women to be in an inferior position.

Quotes from the New Testament about women

“It is well for a man not to touch a woman. But because of the temptation to immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.” 1 Corinthians 7:1-2

“But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of every woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God…. any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled dishonors her head ...For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair ...For a man ought not to cover his head; since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. (For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.)” 1 Corinthians 11:2-10

“Wives, be submissive to your husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands.” Ephesians 5:21-24

“...the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.” 1 Corinthians 14:34-35

“Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.” 1 Timothy 11:15

“Wives, be subject to your husband, as is fitting in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives, and do not be harsh with them. Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord. Fathers, do not provoke your children, lest they become discouraged. Slaves, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but in singleness of heart, fearing the Lord.” Colossians 3:18-22

“....and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be sensible, chaste, domestic, kind, and submissive to their husbands, that the word of God may not be discredited…. Bid slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect…” Titus 2:4-9

“No one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who had been redeemed from the earth. It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are chaste…” Revelation 14:3-4

Summary of New Testament Quotes about women

It is good for a man not to touch a woman, so that he is not tempted to “immorality” and does not “defile” himself. Men are the “heads” of their wives and the “glory of God,” whereas the woman is merely the “glory of man.” Man was not created from woman, but woman from man. Women must be submissive in everything and subject to their husbands, who, again, are their “heads.” Women should not speak in church but must remain subordinate and learn in submissiveness. No woman can teach or have authority over men. Girls and women must be “trained” to love and to be sensible, chaste, domestic and submissive to their husbands.

Further Reading

New Testament Quotes about Women, Poverty, Peace and Slavery
The hidden history of religion
I have a problem when I am told that God is composed of a father, a son and a holy ghost and no one….....no one….... is able to explain that.

why is that a problem to you ?

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Posted: 04 April 2012 05:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]  
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why is that a problem to you ?

 


I am weary of living in delusion.
I am weary of others parading their faith in public.
I am weary of those who are convinced they understand the nature of reality.

 

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Posted: 04 April 2012 05:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]  
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toombaru - 04 April 2012 05:38 PM

I am weary of those who are convinced they understand the nature of reality.

Do you ?

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Posted: 04 April 2012 06:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]  
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Lindoia - 04 April 2012 05:45 PM
toombaru - 04 April 2012 05:38 PM

I am weary of those who are convinced they understand the nature of reality.

Do you ?

 

I do not.
No human being does…....or can.
I do understand that the conceptual mind creates the idea of “reality” and then tries to understand it by rearranging its collection of personal and consensus labels.
It is stacking shadows to reach the moon.
I do understand that the sense of self, the personal identity, emerges and disappears within, and is no different than, that conceptual overlay.
I do understand that the I amness and all of its gods and demons exist only as a conceptual dream of imaginary separation.
I do understand that I am that understanding.

........and the last time I saw a hovering bit of ruby-throated emerald fluff…........the mystery of it all…....catapulted me into bliss…....

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted: 04 April 2012 07:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]  
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toombaru - 04 April 2012 06:34 PM
Lindoia - 04 April 2012 05:45 PM
toombaru - 04 April 2012 05:38 PM

I am weary of those who are convinced they understand the nature of reality.

Do you ?

 

I do not.
No human being does…....or can.
I do understand that the conceptual mind creates the idea of “reality” and then tries to understand it by rearranging its collection of personal and consensus labels.
It is stacking shadows to reach the moon.
I do understand that the sense of self, the personal identity, emerges and disappears within, and is no different than, that conceptual overlay.
I do understand that the I amness and all of its gods and demons exist only as a conceptual dream of imaginary separation.
I do understand that I am that understanding.

........and the last time I saw a hovering bit of ruby-throated emerald fluff…........the mystery of it all…....catapulted me into bliss…....

 

you do admit, that you do not understand nature of reality

but then you say :


I do understand that the conceptual mind creates the idea of “reality” and then tries to understand it by rearranging its collection of personal and consensus labels.
It is stacking shadows to reach the moon.
I do understand that the sense of self, the personal identity, emerges and disappears within, and is no different than, that conceptual overlay.
I do understand that the I amness and all of its gods and demons exist only as a conceptual dream of imaginary separation.
I do understand that I am that understanding.


you contradict yourself…..

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Posted: 04 April 2012 07:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]  
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Lindoia - 04 April 2012 07:24 PM
toombaru - 04 April 2012 06:34 PM
Lindoia - 04 April 2012 05:45 PM
toombaru - 04 April 2012 05:38 PM

I am weary of those who are convinced they understand the nature of reality.

Do you ?

 

I do not.
No human being does…....or can.
I do understand that the conceptual mind creates the idea of “reality” and then tries to understand it by rearranging its collection of personal and consensus labels.
It is stacking shadows to reach the moon.
I do understand that the sense of self, the personal identity, emerges and disappears within, and is no different than, that conceptual overlay.
I do understand that the I amness and all of its gods and demons exist only as a conceptual dream of imaginary separation.
I do understand that I am that understanding.

........and the last time I saw a hovering bit of ruby-throated emerald fluff…........the mystery of it all…....catapulted me into bliss…....

 

you do admit, that you do not understand nature of reality

but then you say :


I do understand that the conceptual mind creates the idea of “reality” and then tries to understand it by rearranging its collection of personal and consensus labels.
It is stacking shadows to reach the moon.
I do understand that the sense of self, the personal identity, emerges and disappears within, and is no different than, that conceptual overlay.
I do understand that the I amness and all of its gods and demons exist only as a conceptual dream of imaginary separation.
I do understand that I am that understanding.


you contradict yourself…..

 


I merely said that there is no such thing as “understanding”.
Scientists do no understand magnetism, electricity, gravity, of light.
You assume that the same mind can understand what it calls reality.
It cannot understand something that exists only as one of its own ideas.

 

 

[ Edited: 05 April 2012 08:03 AM by toombaru]
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Posted: 05 April 2012 03:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]  
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toombaru - 04 April 2012 07:35 PM

I merely said that there is no such thing as “understanding”.

But at least you think to understand, that there is no such thing as understanding….

Indeed, we cannot KNOW the ultimate reality, but through religion, philosophy, and science, we can figure out, which explanation is the best one for our existence. If you discard a intelligent creator as the origin of everything, you have exactly two mechanisms left.

1. chance
2. physical necessity.

We can well figure out, if these two alternatives are compelling.

Its your turn now.

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Posted: 05 April 2012 08:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]  
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Lindoia - 05 April 2012 03:53 AM
toombaru - 04 April 2012 07:35 PM

I merely said that there is no such thing as “understanding”.

But at least you think to understand, that there is no such thing as understanding….

Indeed, we cannot KNOW the ultimate reality, but through religion, philosophy, and science, we can figure out, which explanation is the best one for our existence. If you discard a intelligent creator as the origin of everything, you have exactly two mechanisms left.

1. chance
2. physical necessity.

We can well figure out, if these two alternatives are compelling.

Its your turn now.

 

A blind person knows that they do not see.
The conceptual mind is confined to its own assumptions.
The self is trying to figure out its own origin when it never had one.
The sense of I am arrives downstream from conceptual thought.
It is a phantom that has no ultimate reality.
All of its gods are imaginary.
Its entire existence is a dream.

 

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