Sam Harris

Paisley - 05 July 2012 11:48 PM

toombaru - 05 April 2012 04:22 PM

An omnipotent God could not have freewill.

What is your definition of “free will?”
 
Merriam-Webster defines “free will” as ” voluntary choice or decision” and “ freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention.”

There is a problem in trying to define something that does not exist.
For God to have free will there would have to be such a thing as choice.
An omnipotent God would know all choices He would make in the future.
If God knows beforehand which choice He would make, there would be no reason to make it.

toombaru - 06 July 2012 02:50 AM

Paisley - 05 July 2012 11:48 PM

There is a problem in trying to define something that does not exist.

I did not have any problem defining the term. But if you’re not willing to define it, then there is no point in continuing this discussion.

toombaru - 06 July 2012 02:50 AM

For God to have free will there would have to be such a thing as choice.

And?

An omnipotent God would know all choices He would make in the future.
If God knows beforehand which choice He would make, there would be no reason to make it.

Two points:

1) You’re employing the wrong term here.. It’s “omniscient” (all-knowing),  not “omnipotent” (all-powerful).
2) From the divine perspective, there is no “before” or “after;” there’s only “now.” Albeit, God does know what is past and future relative to our perspective.

Paisley - 06 July 2012 11:49 AM

toombaru - 06 July 2012 02:50 AM

Paisley - 05 July 2012 11:48 PM

There is a problem in trying to define something that does not exist.

I did not have any problem defining the term. But if you’re not willing to define it, then there is no point in continuing this discussion.

You presented the consensus definition of “free will” which is merely the accepted description.
That is comparable to presenting the popular opinion concerning the color of Cinderella’s hair.
I, like most people think that her hair was blond.
And you may agree with me.
The point is that there was no actual Cinderella and to debate the color of her hair is insane.

 

toombaru - 06 July 2012 02:50 AM

For God to have free will there would have to be such a thing as choice.

And?

Do you believe that an omniscient god would have the ability to choose between alternative courses of action?

An omnipotent God would know all choices He would make in the future.
If God knows beforehand which choice He would make, there would be no reason to make it.

Two points:

1) You’re employing the wrong term here.. It’s “omniscient” (all-knowing),  not “omnipotent” (all-powerful).
2) From the divine perspective, there is no “before” or “after;” there’s only “now.” Albeit, God does know what is past and future relative to our perspective.

 

So…......you believe that God is omnipotent but not omniscient?
Can something be omnipotent without being omniscient?

 

 

toombaru - 06 July 2012 01:10 PM

You presented the consensus definition of “free will” which is merely the accepted description.

Yes, I did, and I did not ask you whether or not you believe in free will; I simply asked you to define the term. If you’re not willing to define the term, then you should not have started this thread. 

toombaru - 06 July 2012 01:10 PM

Do you believe that an omniscient god would have the ability to choose between alternative courses of action?

Yes, why not?
 
(By the way, the term “God” is capitalized.)

toombaru - 06 July 2012 01:10 PM

So…......you believe that God is omnipotent but not omniscient?
Can something be omnipotent without being omniscient?

The point is that the term “omniscient” was more appropriate than the term “omnipotent”  (in the context of the question you asked in the OP).

Paisley - 06 July 2012 03:25 PM

toombaru - 06 July 2012 01:10 PM

You presented the consensus definition of “free will” which is merely the accepted description.

Yes, I did, and I did not ask you whether or not you believe in free will; I simply asked you to define the term. If you’re not willing to define the term, then you should not have started this thread. 

toombaru - 06 July 2012 01:10 PM

Do you believe that an omniscient god would have the ability to choose between alternative courses of action?

Yes, why not?
 
(By the way, the term “God” is capitalized.)

toombaru - 06 July 2012 01:10 PM

So…......you believe that God is omnipotent but not omniscient?
Can something be omnipotent without being omniscient?

The point is that the term “omniscient” was more appropriate than the term “omnipotent”  (in the context of the question you asked in the OP).

Granted.
So…......you believe that God is omnipotent but not omniscient?
Can something be omnipotent without being omniscient?