Sam Harris

One of the areas that I feel Sam could do a better job at is explaining the root cause of some of the irrational behaviors that we see in the topics discussed.  I believe that the quickest way to dis-empower many of these irrational beliefs is to unravel them to their origins and find the rational(if only biologically rational) reasons surrounding their beginnings. 

One of the things that Sam brings up a lot is the Catholic stance on birth control, something completely irrational that flies in the face of what we objectively know as a method to increase well-being and almost everything good in scciety and the societal reasons against birth control that the church brings forward are all completely bogus.  This we can all agree on , but you will never have a religious person accept the evidence with any weight because, as Sam points out, what kind of evidence can you give a person that actively rejects evidence day to day, that will sway their minds on an issue?

What I think does help to open peoples minds is to explain the rational for why something exists and show that there were specific social, biological or political reasons that made real sense at the time.  This was exquisitely done during the first 15 minutes of the first Zeitgeist movie by showing the pagan and star/sun-base explanation for nearly every religious belief on the planet

Anyways, back to condom usage and the Catholic faith, there’s an interesting little part of the latest episode of Sci-show(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXSu68PmbKQ) at 3:45 that correlates the vehemency of the opposition to birth control by the catholic faith and the societal pressures to increase population as quickly as possible in the aftermath of the Black Death that wiped out 1/3 of Europe’s population.  The waste of seed was declared a sin some 1000 years prior but not with the same fervor as we are used to which kicked in in the 1400’s by pope Innocence.  It makes perfect sense to do what you can to encourage a population to have as many babies as possible in the wake of such dramatic drops in local populations and for such naive people the threat of eternal damnation was probably the most compelling way to accomplish this.  More research should be done in the matter to correlate the intensity of the anti-contraception rhetoric in the church with the drop in population after the Black Death but it would rationally explain this little piece of dogma and showing the roots of these things like this can really kickstart peoples rational thought processes and help them let go of them as ‘scripture’ and accept them as necessary systems for change in the crazy times they were needed in.  Not for all things mind you, but a lot of them at least

unc0nnected - 15 July 2012 08:21 PM

One of the areas that I feel Sam could do a better job at is explaining the root cause of some of the irrational behaviors that we see in the topics discussed.  I believe that the quickest way to dis-empower many of these irrational beliefs is to unravel them to their origins and find the rational(if only biologically rational) reasons surrounding their beginnings. 

One of the things that Sam brings up a lot is the Catholic stance on birth control, something completely irrational that flies in the face of what we objectively know as a method to increase well-being and almost everything good in scciety and the societal reasons against birth control that the church brings forward are all completely bogus.  This we can all agree on , but you will never have a religious person accept the evidence with any weight because, as Sam points out, what kind of evidence can you give a person that actively rejects evidence day to day, that will sway their minds on an issue?

What I think does help to open peoples minds is to explain the rational for why something exists and show that there were specific social, biological or political reasons that made real sense at the time.  This was exquisitely done during the first 15 minutes of the first Zeitgeist movie by showing the pagan and star/sun-base explanation for nearly every religious belief on the planet

Anyways, back to condom usage and the Catholic faith, there’s an interesting little part of the latest episode of Sci-show(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXSu68PmbKQ) at 3:45 that correlates the vehemency of the opposition to birth control by the catholic faith and the societal pressures to increase population as quickly as possible in the aftermath of the Black Death that wiped out 1/3 of Europe’s population.  The waste of seed was declared a sin some 1000 years prior but not with the same fervor as we are used to which kicked in in the 1400’s by pope Innocence.  It makes perfect sense to do what you can to encourage a population to have as many babies as possible in the wake of such dramatic drops in local populations and for such naive people the threat of eternal damnation was probably the most compelling way to accomplish this.  More research should be done in the matter to correlate the intensity of the anti-contraception rhetoric in the church with the drop in population after the Black Death but it would rationally explain this little piece of dogma and showing the roots of these things like this can really kickstart peoples rational thought processes and help them let go of them as ‘scripture’ and accept them as necessary systems for change in the crazy times they were needed in.  Not for all things mind you, but a lot of them at least

Perhaps a good place to start would be the belief in papal infallibility.

Well I think that’s a good place to start in recognizing why such irrationality carries such weight in the community but it doesn’t explain the origin of such genocidally negligent decrees such as this one.  In my past the greatest piece of persuasion has always been to see the rational origins of irrational nonsense.  But it irrational on it’s face it was rational say for the pope to do anything in his power to encourage population growth in the face of the decimation from the plague.  Just as it was rational for our great great ancestors to desperately seek answers to unanswerable questions at the time like what the stars were, why they moved, etc etc.  Psychologically rational at least and I’ve found once that rational is unraveled and things aren’t just looked at as or called stupid people have an easier time letting go of the dogma.

unc0nnected - 16 July 2012 07:11 PM

Well I think that’s a good place to start in recognizing why such irrationality carries such weight in the community but it doesn’t explain the origin of such genocidally negligent decrees such as this one.  In my past the greatest piece of persuasion has always been to see the rational origins of irrational nonsense.  But it irrational on it’s face it was rational say for the pope to do anything in his power to encourage population growth in the face of the decimation from the plague.  Just as it was rational for our great great ancestors to desperately seek answers to unanswerable questions at the time like what the stars were, why they moved, etc etc.  Psychologically rational at least and I’ve found once that rational is unraveled and things aren’t just looked at as or called stupid people have an easier time letting go of the dogma.

Human children are defenseless until they have accumulated enough knowledge to survive on their own.
It is biologically advantageous to trust completely what authority figures tell them.
They learn what to eat and what can eat them.
Those who have evolved to believe what is told to them have a better chance to survive and reproduce.
Other than living in delusion, there is generally no great penalty for believing the religious dogma of the tribe.

Yes, but I don’t think you are going to sway any evolution deniers to give up their faith because their mindless surrender to authority is based on a biological impulse. 

We can understand all of this logically and see it for what it is, all having roots in biology and evolution, but that’s a vantage point that we do not share with irrational people.  What I’m saying is that you need to build a different bridge if you want to open their minds up to the possibility of questioning some of their commonly held beliefs.

So much of the debating that goes on between right and left is all about one side being right and the other side being wrong, end of story and more in a way of tearing the other people down in such a way that they have no way of climbing back up again..  We should be throwing them ladders, not ripping the ground out from underneath them and throwing them in a pit of fear and uncertainty.

*Edit: which is of course exactly what I’m doing with you right now which shows just how easy it is to fall into that trap.  You of course are right in everything you say but what do you think can be said to these people of which we speak that can offer them a path from their place of faith based irrationality to a more rational place that results from questioning their life and seeking truth?

unc0nnected - 17 July 2012 01:12 AM

Yes, but I don’t think you are going to sway any evolution deniers to give up their faith because their mindless surrender to authority is based on a biological impulse. 

We can understand all of this logically and see it for what it is, all having roots in biology and evolution, but that’s a vantage point that we do not share with irrational people.  What I’m saying is that you need to build a different bridge if you want to open their minds up to the possibility of questioning some of their commonly held beliefs.

So much of the debating that goes on between right and left is all about one side being right and the other side being wrong, end of story and more in a way of tearing the other people down in such a way that they have no way of climbing back up again..  We should be throwing them ladders, not ripping the ground out from underneath them and throwing them in a pit of fear and uncertainty.

*Edit: which is of course exactly what I’m doing with you right now which shows just how easy it is to fall into that trap.  You of course are right in everything you say but what do you think can be said to these people of which we speak that can offer them a path from their place of faith based irrationality to a more rational place that results from questioning their life and seeking truth?

After a stint at a Christian preschool, my grandson tried to tell me about the relationship between Jesus and God.
“Jesus is the little god and God is the….............”
I waited for the complete explanation.
Time passed.
He looked up at me and I smiled.
“Natie…......Papa doesn’t believe any of that stuff.”
He laughed, Ilaughed and we went for a walk in the rain.

unc0nnected - 17 July 2012 01:12 AM

Yes, but I don’t think you are going to sway any evolution deniers to give up their faith because their mindless surrender to authority is based on a biological impulse. 

We can understand all of this logically and see it for what it is, all having roots in biology and evolution, but that’s a vantage point that we do not share with irrational people.  What I’m saying is that you need to build a different bridge if you want to open their minds up to the possibility of questioning some of their commonly held beliefs.

So much of the debating that goes on between right and left is all about one side being right and the other side being wrong, end of story and more in a way of tearing the other people down in such a way that they have no way of climbing back up again..  We should be throwing them ladders, not ripping the ground out from underneath them and throwing them in a pit of fear and uncertainty.

*Edit: which is of course exactly what I’m doing with you right now which shows just how easy it is to fall into that trap.  You of course are right in everything you say but what do you think can be said to these people of which we speak that can offer them a path from their place of faith based irrationality to a more rational place that results from questioning their life and seeking truth?

I don’t think they can be reached by logic.
The persona IS the assumption that the truth is already known.
Something other than reason is needed to break the spell.
Perhaps the death of a loved one or similar catharsis will temporarily break the rhythm or religious thinking but it usually creeps back in after the storm.
It seems to be the default sitting in most humans.
We, I’m afraid, are the odd balls.

??At a loss for words?

Joe Mello - 22 July 2012 01:35 AM

??At a loss for words?

“At a loss for words” is a statement that contradicts itself.

Daniel Dennett’s ‘Breaking the Spell’ explores the root causes you mention very well.

Why is religious practice so ‘expensive’ (resources, time, energy), and when did folk religion become the religion we recognize today? These are some of the questions posed.

He talks about the man-made yet authorless construction of religion - analogous to either a symbiotic, parasitic or beneficial viral arrangement with human mind.

Good book.