1 of 2
1
The self, a question about reality.
Posted: 01 September 2012 04:35 AM   [ Ignore ]  
Newbie
Rank
Total Posts:  7
Joined  2012-09-01

When a person meditates and merges subject and object effectively eliminating the “self” he automaticly becomes the world as no mental boundaries limit his being. Sam has exprienced this kind of thing and yet maintains his materialist views on who we are.


Why is this? I mean masters of meditation and contemplation through the ages have reached enlightenment and have said that our true nature is that of existence itself and that all that is perceived arises in consciousness. That we attach ourselves to concepts and live by them, as the concept “I” which is basicly a thought pointing to the body and the mind as being that.


So what I don’t understand is how he can have experienced the disolution of self and yet believe in the individual death? The only reason people believe in death is because of identification with the body and its causal personality. Having dispelled that identification one must surely have gone beyond birth and death. I wonder how Sam will change upon realizing the true self as most practitioners do after years of practice.


If Sam is indeed right although I have no understand of his view of life given his experience and his conclusions does that mean that all the other meditators through out the world are simply gullible? That they have realized enlightenment and are in a state of self delusion?


Practitioners are always amazingly critical and question everything, this is the path to enlightenment. Yet somewhere along the journey Sam splits of and holds on the physicallity and death while others seem to abide in the blissful state of fearless living as one who neither is born nor dies.


I hope Im making sense here but Its hard for me to formulate my question in a simple way.


Does Sam believe in enlightenemnt? Truely recognizing yourself as existence itself? What is the difference between Adyashanti and him? Both are very critical and know the mind but one is materialistic and one is absolutly not.

[ Edited: 01 September 2012 04:57 AM by patko]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 September 2012 10:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  802
Joined  2010-11-12
patko - 01 September 2012 04:35 AM

When a person meditates and merges subject and object effectively eliminating the “self” he automaticly becomes the world as no mental boundaries limit his being. Sam has exprienced this kind of thing and yet maintains his materialist views on who we are.


Why is this? I mean masters of meditation and contemplation through the ages have reached enlightenment and have said that our true nature is that of existence itself and that all that is perceived arises in consciousness. That we attach ourselves to concepts and live by them, as the concept “I” which is basicly a thought pointing to the body and the mind as being that.


So what I don’t understand is how he can have experienced the disolution of self and yet believe in the individual death? The only reason people believe in death is because of identification with the body and its causal personality. Having dispelled that identification one must surely have gone beyond birth and death. I wonder how Sam will change upon realizing the true self as most practitioners do after years of practice.


If Sam is indeed right although I have no understand of his view of life given his experience and his conclusions does that mean that all the other meditators through out the world are simply gullible? That they have realized enlightenment and are in a state of self delusion?


Practitioners are always amazingly critical and question everything, this is the path to enlightenment. Yet somewhere along the journey Sam splits of and holds on the physicallity and death while others seem to abide in the blissful state of fearless living as one who neither is born nor dies.


I hope Im making sense here but Its hard for me to formulate my question in a simple way.


Does Sam believe in enlightenemnt? Truely recognizing yourself as existence itself? What is the difference between Adyashanti and him? Both are very critical and know the mind but one is materialistic and one is absolutly not.

 

There is no such thing as enlightenment and no such thing as self to have it.
The self searches within a conceptual overlay for its own ultimate reality and meaning and it has none.
A person cannot experience its own essential emptiness.
And yes, the so called masters were deluded.
To the last one, they are fakes and frauds.
Oh some of them may have experienced the loss of self but their mistake is sticking around and by trying to express the apperception by using the very tools that create the illusion of self, they are pulled back into the conceptual dream of separation.
An enlightened person is like an enlightened shadow.
Neither a person nor a shadow actually ever existed.
Enlightenment is annihilation and those who search for it are merely chasing a shadow in a shadowland.
Anyone who claims to know more than you about enlightenment is lying.
I know that leaves nothing on which to cling.
There is only this most amazing sentient human awareness….......gazing out into a vast mystery.
And that…..my dear…...is who I am and who you are.

 

 

[ Edited: 01 September 2012 10:59 AM by toombaru]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 September 2012 01:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
Newbie
Rank
Total Posts:  7
Joined  2012-09-01

I know what realization is and it seems you are arguing with my choice of language. I’m not one to go into semantics and so this would only spurr a discussion between two people using different symbols to represent the same thing.


My question If I may put it in a different way is this:


I believe that there is an state of understanding which transcends the material, anyone practicing truth knows this in-fact it is the ultimate goal. So what is Sam’s opinion on this being a materialist? How can a materialist meditate and dissolve himself into truth and yet maintain that he is but a material body? Everyone knows that the realized truth in the end is that you are the unborn nature of existence. That which neither is born nor will ever die. It is because of this realization that practitioners and realizers loose any fear of death because it simply doesn’t exist anymore. These concepts are incredibly spiritual and don’t combine well with materialistic minds, (who granted probably don’t have the slightest clue of this truth) and react automatically in an impulsive way to the very utterance of transcending the material.


Sometimes I have the feeling Sam is infiltrating the materialist movement and planting seeds, disguised as one of them but deep within himself has the heart of a truly spiritual being. Seeing Richard Dawkins (and 4000 others) with closed eyes listening to the guided meditation that Sam preformed really gave me a sense of revolution. Its one of those moments that have incredible historic value. Like Tiananmen Square protester standing in-front of the CPR tanks.


He is truly bringing about a shift in consciousness. I have always said that atheism is but a reactionary movement to religion and nothing more. Sam is the guy that is slowly changing this otherwise reactionary movement that identifies with the crushing of religions into a more general direction in which he leaves room for happiness’s and a spiritual side of our experiences.


I have seen many commentators on youtube that are absolutely disgusted by him. Its actually funny how these kinds of people simply revolt as an impulse to something they have tried to keep away form their entire lives. Their egos are so invested in what they believe that they cannot even let themselves experience a spiritual state even tough meditation and its philosophies are as scientific as science can be. It is a simple analysing of cause and effect but instead of working in the material we are working in the experiential and mental.


Its the reason Sam is going to devote a book to it, he is a brave man for doing what he is doing. Who else has the mental sharpness and linguistic elegance to walk the narrow path of explaining to an atheist that he must practice spirituality without any religious connotations. Its the undertaking of the century and I hope he can change the direction of the community. He might not get the extreme atheists on board but perhaps the majority of the community will begin to step to the side and open up to his view of the future.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 01 September 2012 02:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  802
Joined  2010-11-12
patko - 01 September 2012 01:46 PM

I know what realization is and it seems you are arguing with my choice of language. I’m not one to go into semantics and so this would only spurr a discussion between two people using different symbols to represent the same thing.


My question If I may put it in a different way is this:


I believe that there is an state of understanding which transcends the material, anyone practicing truth knows this in-fact it is the ultimate goal. So what is Sam’s opinion on this being a materialist? How can a materialist meditate and dissolve himself into truth and yet maintain that he is but a material body? Everyone knows that the realized truth in the end is that you are the unborn nature of existence. That which neither is born nor will ever die. It is because of this realization that practitioners and realizers loose any fear of death because it simply doesn’t exist anymore. These concepts are incredibly spiritual and don’t combine well with materialistic minds, (who granted probably don’t have the slightest clue of this truth) and react automatically in an impulsive way to the very utterance of transcending the material.


Sometimes I have the feeling Sam is infiltrating the materialist movement and planting seeds, disguised as one of them but deep within himself has the heart of a truly spiritual being. Seeing Richard Dawkins (and 4000 others) with closed eyes listening to the guided meditation that Sam preformed really gave me a sense of revolution. Its one of those moments that have incredible historic value. Like Tiananmen Square protester standing in-front of the CPR tanks.


He is truly bringing about a shift in consciousness. I have always said that atheism is but a reactionary movement to religion and nothing more. Sam is the guy that is slowly changing this otherwise reactionary movement that identifies with the crushing of religions into a more general direction in which he leaves room for happiness’s and a spiritual side of our experiences.


I have seen many commentators on youtube that are absolutely disgusted by him. Its actually funny how these kinds of people simply revolt as an impulse to something they have tried to keep away form their entire lives. Their egos are so invested in what they believe that they cannot even let themselves experience a spiritual state even tough meditation and its philosophies are as scientific as science can be. It is a simple analysing of cause and effect but instead of working in the material we are working in the experiential and mental.


Its the reason Sam is going to devote a book to it, he is a brave man for doing what he is doing. Who else has the mental sharpness and linguistic elegance to walk the narrow path of explaining to an atheist that he must practice spirituality without any religious connotations. Its the undertaking of the century and I hope he can change the direction of the community. He might not get the extreme atheists on board but perhaps the majority of the community will begin to step to the side and open up to his view of the future.

 

Well that’s just it.
You can’t get there from here.
Simply because there is no there and no here.
The sense of self exists only within the conceptual mind’s conceptual overlay.
It tries to improve, or in some cases, escape, from a prison that has no actual existential reality.
It shines an imaginary brick.
There is no form of understanding that transcends the material.
There is nothing super-natural.
The brain and its conceptual concoctions relate to the incoming perceptual input.
For the mind, there is nothing beyond the material world except its own imaginings.
Deep with the human psyche smolders a Utopian ideal.
It thinks it can almost smell the campfires of Sgangra-La.
It is programmed to imagine a more perfect condition in which it will live in peace, bliss and perfect harmony.
This is the plenum out of which all religions swirl into existence.
The sad thing about that is the creation of a pseudo-reality that obfuscates the ever-present raw-perfection of simply being awareness itself.
You are a searcher.
You are programmed to search.
You believe that others may have answers and will seek out authorities to answer your questions.
It is easy to gravitate toward and fall into the orb of charismatics who appear to have found the ultimate truth.
The ultimate truth is that that there in no ultimate truth.
You are a searcher.
Perhaps you will continue to search until the physical organism dies.
Perhaps you will get a peek up your own skirts.
Perhaps not.
What Sam thinks is merely what Sam thinks.
In these matters no brain knows more than any other.
There are no authorities on something that does not exist.

 

 

Profile
 
 
Posted: 02 September 2012 12:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
Newbie
Rank
Total Posts:  7
Joined  2012-09-01

Most of what you said I have heard a hundred times and so I know what you are saying. But as a conditioned being you have to practice to unconditioned yourself even tough “you need not do anything” blablabla. If I wouldn’t meditate my mind would run around like a mad man and I would be utterly confused in imaginings of thought and longings for happy experiences. So the mind requires me to do certain things. These things you talk about are easily understood conceptually but in practice they do not provide a person with any substance. I bet you are one of those who thinks practice is not necessary because all is already here etc etc..


But you are right that perhaps I should not seek the authority of Sam in this case because he is smart. I just don’t want to make any missteps on the path. I don’t want to assume things that arn’t true or skew my own reality because thats how I want it. I want that which is always unconditioned and always true.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 02 September 2012 08:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  802
Joined  2010-11-12
patko - 02 September 2012 12:35 AM

Most of what you said I have heard a hundred times and so I know what you are saying. But as a conditioned being you have to practice to unconditioned yourself even tough “you need not do anything” blablabla. If I wouldn’t meditate my mind would run around like a mad man and I would be utterly confused in imaginings of thought and longings for happy experiences. So the mind requires me to do certain things. These things you talk about are easily understood conceptually but in practice they do not provide a person with any substance. I bet you are one of those who thinks practice is not necessary because all is already here etc etc..


But you are right that perhaps I should not seek the authority of Sam in this case because he is smart. I just don’t want to make any missteps on the path. I don’t want to assume things that arn’t true or skew my own reality because thats how I want it. I want that which is always unconditioned and always true.


You have heard these things a hundred times because that is as close as words can come to pointing to the way things are.
Only a conditioned mind would come up with the idea that it has the ability to uncondition itself.
Try unlearning something and watch what happens.
The conceptual mind is nothing but layers and layers conditioning.
And the sense of being an autonomous self emerges in that arena.
The conceptual mind is fundamentally unhappy.
It evolved to look for happiness but not to find it.
It isn’t that you need not do anything.
There is nothing you CAN do.
You are not the doer.
You are the done.
These things I talk about are not easily understood.
Actually, they can"t be understood.
Concepts cannot be used to grasp their own nature.
They are misconceptions.
Nothing can see itself.
Concepts are the mind’s assumption that things have an actual separate reality.
They do not.
The mind can’t control the mind.
Do you think that there is a controller and a controlee in there?
One that knows what to do and one that needs doing to?
These things do not seem to have any substance simply because the persona has no substance.
It is a psychological phantom that is programmed to think it is the captain of its own little ship.
When in truth, there is no wheel, no rudder, and no vessel.
Practice if you are compelled to do so, but know that you are spinning wheels that exist only on the frontal cortex that you call yours.
Sam is smart.
There are a lot of smart people in the world.
But there are no authorities in these matters and no mind can figure this stuff out.
If it were possible, don’t you think it would have happened by now?
The mind that wants to know what’s going on is the same devise that had trouble with algebra in high school.
Consciousness will never have access to itself.
It is not a thing…....it is what’s thinging.
You can’t make missteps.
That would require freedom of choice, and you don’t have it.
No one does.
“Unconditioned” and “true” are conditions that the conceptual mind comes up with in its futile attempt to objectify its perceptual input.
When ask what he learned after sitting for thirty years in a cave, a yogi said:
“Not a thing.”
You don’t have to seek out your own cave.
You have been in one since you learned to talk.
You can hang a few pictures on the wall, but you can never escape.
Thank goodness it exists only as an idea.


...............Thinging in the rain….....just thinging in the rain…............

(My computer keeps putting red dots under the word “thinging”.
Evidently it is programmed to “think” it is not a real thing.)

 

 

[ Edited: 02 September 2012 09:13 AM by toombaru]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 02 September 2012 01:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
Newbie
Rank
Total Posts:  7
Joined  2012-09-01

I don’t want to go into this anymore, you are talking about stuff I know about, the only place where we seperate is in the fact that I think I can see clearly by devoting myself in practice and you think I should do nothing at all. There is a whole religion based on people who don’t seem to think they have to practice because some master said that enlightenment is here and now and one cannot do anything to attain it.


But thats just wrongful understanding of what the master talked about. The dangerous thing is not to make enlightenemnt something that adds to who you think you are. And you talk to me as if Im doing that and you are trying to show me that im not a self but a non self. I know these things and I seek ultimate truth not self delusion. You are basicly preaching to the choir but in your mind you are speaking to someone who is just getting in touch with these concepts.


Anyway Im going to stick with medtitation and you may stick with what ever you are doing, lets not be lost in words when we both know that the realm of words is nowhere near the truth and its basicly intellectual circle jerk.


If you were realized you would not be forcing your view upon me, so we can safely say that by the intensity with which you try to convince me that you are not realized. And we both know what they say about teaching others when one is not in truth himself, it is poisonous and dangerous for who ever follows them.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 02 September 2012 02:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  802
Joined  2010-11-12
patko - 02 September 2012 01:03 PM

I don’t want to go into this anymore, you are talking about stuff I know about, the only place where we seperate is in the fact that I think I can see clearly by devoting myself in practice and you think I should do nothing at all. There is a whole religion based on people who don’t seem to think they have to practice because some master said that enlightenment is here and now and one cannot do anything to attain it.


But thats just wrongful understanding of what the master talked about. The dangerous thing is not to make enlightenemnt something that adds to who you think you are. And you talk to me as if Im doing that and you are trying to show me that im not a self but a non self. I know these things and I seek ultimate truth not self delusion. You are basicly preaching to the choir but in your mind you are speaking to someone who is just getting in touch with these concepts.


Anyway Im going to stick with medtitation and you may stick with what ever you are doing, lets not be lost in words when we both know that the realm of words is nowhere near the truth and its basicly intellectual circle jerk.


If you were realized you would not be forcing your view upon me, so we can safely say that by the intensity with which you try to convince me that you are not realized. And we both know what they say about teaching others when one is not in truth himself, it is poisonous and dangerous for who ever follows them.

 

I can certainly see why you don’t want to talk about this anymore.
Forty years ago, I was like you.
I was despirate to find answers to the deeper questions over which the mind agonizes.
I wanted to know the meaning of my life.
I wanted to know who I was and how I fit into the big picture.
I read a thousand books and sat with dozens of the best known teachers.
You are on a mission.
I can only tell you that all of your efforts are a clever diversion that the sense of self uses to hide its own essential emptiness.
On these matters there are no authorities.
The only teachers worth their salt know that they don’t know anything; but that is not what followers want to hear.
And that wisdom will not sell books.
No one wants to hear that they never existed.
Not doing is not the way to understand this.
The attempt to do nothing is merely another form of doing.
I am not telling you that you are already enlightened.
I am saying that there is no such thing as enlightenment and no one to have it.
You are chasing one of your own ideas.
I’ll bet that you can’t even tell me what enlightenment is.
You are not a non-self.
There is no such thing as a non non-existent thing.
Stick to your meditation.
Sit until your legs go numb.
Try to quiet the roof-brain chatter.
Once or twice you may even reach a profound peace that is unspeakable.
But that old self will creep right back in and claim the accomplishment.
It will actually believe that it is getting somewhere.
It will usually keep cutting the imaginary distance in half until the organism dies.
I meditated for fourteen years and the only thing gained was the loss of innumerable moments that could have been used to experience the most amazing sentient-awareness that has ever evolved on earth.
You are right…....I am not realized.
I am not here to shine your self image.
In a very strange way…........the words I say can destroy your entire world.
If we are both here in fifteen years….....get back to me.
I’d like to meet an enlightened human.
Well….....that’s if your quiet mind can still speak.
grin

 

 

 

 

 

Profile
 
 
Posted: 03 September 2012 06:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
Newbie
Rank
Total Posts:  7
Joined  2012-09-01

Your text is full of assumptions on how I think and attach myself to things. Im telling you Im not the way you perceive me to be. I do not attach to good feelings in meditation, nor do I want to be “enlightened” as some kind of addition to who I am. I don’t want to be a teacher with glassy eyes that rarely blinks. Im not looking to be a personality. What Im merely doing is staying in the present that is all. It could not even be said that it is a doing, as I cannot do the present. I can only abide in it. So please erase this persona you have of me in your head.

No matter what I say, you keep conflicting with me. Its like you started commenting on this thread for the mere purpose of conflicting with me. Everything I say is a quest for you to “prove me wrong”.

If you don’t believe in truth thats fine for you. If you don’t think practice in silence is valuable, okay no problem bro. If you think you can change me by your words, please don’t. I don’t need your speeches and words.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 03 September 2012 09:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  802
Joined  2010-11-12
patko - 03 September 2012 06:13 AM

Your text is full of assumptions on how I think and attach myself to things. Im telling you Im not the way you perceive me to be. I do not attach to good feelings in meditation, nor do I want to be “enlightened” as some kind of addition to who I am. I don’t want to be a teacher with glassy eyes that rarely blinks. Im not looking to be a personality. What Im merely doing is staying in the present that is all. It could not even be said that it is a doing, as I cannot do the present. I can only abide in it. So please erase this persona you have of me in your head.

No matter what I say, you keep conflicting with me. Its like you started commenting on this thread for the mere purpose of conflicting with me. Everything I say is a quest for you to “prove me wrong”.

If you don’t believe in truth thats fine for you. If you don’t think practice in silence is valuable, okay no problem bro. If you think you can change me by your words, please don’t. I don’t need your speeches and words.

Ok then.
I wish you luck in your search for imaginary perfection.
(Oh wait a minute…....I don’t believe in luck…....or perfection).
I hope your mind can attain the quietness it seeks.
I hope you find a person that knows the road to Shangra-La.
I hope someday you will combine your thoughts into the perfect recipe for the peace of mind the enlightened ones talk about.
I hope your mind can find and abide in what it calls the present.
I hope it finds the truth.
I really do.

 

 

Profile
 
 
Posted: 04 September 2012 10:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
Newbie
Rank
Total Posts:  7
Joined  2012-09-01

Listen dude, my mind is reactionary which means that it reacts to impulses automatically. It has many bad tendencies both in the conscious and unconscious. A man that does not meditate and is not conscious is a slave to his monkey mind as it were. I try to see those tendencys and delusions and simply see what is before me. I want to go in the dentists waiting room and not feel the future pain that I imagine I will have. Such a thought is utterly useless. I want to wake up, and instead of my mind immediatly being anxious over what I have to do in this day, I can lie in my bed just chilling for a few moments. My mind won’t go to the past for past sufferings. It wont go to the future for future happiness. It simply stays where it is, and in the moment usually there is no suffering. Constant mental suffering is the mind jumping around from emotion to emotions being triggered by thoughts or by situations. A big ball of emotional chaos. People who want to kill themselves are constantly jumping around in their head to all the bad things in their life. And in their mind it accumulates, and so the load with each experience is heavier and heavier to bear untill the person cannot bear it anymore and kills himself.


If that person could be in the moment for only one time, all his sufferings would vanish for that moment, and he would see that he only suffers purely because of his mind. And that suffering is not a reality, it does not exist objectively. If this person would meditate he would be able to start unloading his heavy emotional burden. He would with each passing day become lighter untill all his emotional bagage has been desolves in his happiness of the moment.


What comes out of that practice is great conscious living in the moment, where you are happy for no apparant reason. You just sit in silence and the happiness flows in your body. I have experienced this many times. Why do people feel good when they live consciously? Because they see the tendencies of the mind and no longer fall for its traps no longer are a slave to its whims.


When man has a choice thats when he can free himself from those tendencies. Being free from those tendencies is unconditioned being. When not even the tendency to identify with anything is there then one is everything. This part of spirituality is called practice. You cannot uncodition yourself by concepts as you seem to think. You cannot make someone see the truth by telling them that they must stop searching. You cannot heal an anorectic person by telling her she must just start eating. You cannot tell a person on the spiritual path that he is already free in every moment with every step. He should simply come to see that he is free.


Your statements are absolutly devoid of anything that can help anyone. By the very frequency with which you disseminate your thoughts on this forum can I come to the conclusion that it is all you are doing. I must conclude that these posts have more to do with yourself than with anybody here. Why would you post every thought you have here? What compels you to do this?


I believe I can come to see the world through the eyes of god, I simply must close my own.


How does god see? When a person has an opinion, god does not judge him or prove him wrong. When someone is angry, god does not judge him at all. When someone does a disgusting act of violence, god sees that he is but the product of the past and no blame is to be put on him. When god sees a person crying, he does not feel that persons pain, because it exists only for that person. But he will by his very being show her a glimpse of the truth. He will act as a mirror with which see will see the reality of her emotions, that they are infact delusions.

God is the biggest perspective that exists. It is the awareness that is able to fit all variables of this world and its laws and accept them as perfect. When you see an angry person, god sees all the pain and delusion in his mind. When you are judging a person for eating too much, god sees the all the conditioning of this person.

How can anyone hate someone, if you fully understand everything about them and how they have come to be like this? This is why masters say that from wisdom comes love. From understanding a person totally one can feel unbouding love for that being. And because of this understanding, absolutly everything in the world becomes perfect as is. There is no good and no bad. Everything is just perfect.


People who have had such experiences will know exactly what i mean, others will be revolted by this display of seemingly religiousness. Truth is not religious or spiritual, truth is truth, don’t get attached to words. Words like god that trigger automatic reactions of irritation in every atheists heart.

[ Edited: 04 September 2012 11:01 AM by patko]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 04 September 2012 11:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  802
Joined  2010-11-12
patko - 04 September 2012 10:26 AM

Listen dude, my mind is reactionary which means that it reacts to impulses automatically. It has many bad tendencies both in the conscious and unconscious. A man that does not meditate and is not conscious is a slave to his monkey mind as it were. I try to see those tendencys and delusions and simply see what is before me. I want to go in the dentists waiting room and not feel the future pain that I imagine I will have. Such a thought is utterly useless. I want to wake up, and instead of my mind immediatly being anxious over what I have to do in this day, I can lie in my bed just chilling for a few moments. My mind won’t go to the past for past sufferings. It wont go to the future for future happiness. It simply stays where it is, and in the moment usually there is no suffering. Constant mental suffering is the mind jumping around from emotion to emotions being triggered by thoughts or by situations. A big ball of emotional chaos. People who want to kill themselves are constantly jumping around in their head to all the bad things in their life. And in their mind it accumulates, and so the load with each experience is heavier and heavier to bear untill the person cannot bear it anymore and kills himself.


If that person could be in the moment for only one time, all his sufferings would vanish for that moment, and he would see that he only suffers purely because of his mind. And that suffering is not a reality, it does not exist objectively. If this person would meditate he would be able to start unloading his heavy emotional burden. He would with each passing day become lighter untill all his emotional bagage has been desolves in his happiness of the moment.


What comes out of that practice is great conscious living in the moment, where you are happy for no apparant reason. You just sit in silence and the happiness flows in your body. I have experienced this many times. Why do people feel good when they live consciously? Because they see the tendencies of the mind and no longer fall for its traps no longer are a slave to its whims.


When man has a choice thats when he can free himself from those tendencies. Being free from those tendencies is unconditioned being. When not even the tendency to identify with anything is there then one is everything. This part of spirituality is called practice. You cannot uncodition yourself by concepts as you seem to think. You cannot make someone see the truth by telling them that they must stop searching. You cannot heal an anorectic person by telling her she must just start eating. You cannot tell a person on the spiritual path that he is already free in every moment with every step. He should simply come to see that he is free.


Your statements are absolutly devoid of anything that can help anyone. By the very frequency with which you disseminate your thoughts on this forum can I come to the conclusion that it is all you are doing. I must conclude that these posts have more to do with yourself than with anybody here. Why would you post every thought you have here? What compels you to do this?


I believe I can come to see the world through the eyes of “god”, I simply must close my own.

 

 

I have no idea why I post here.
If I had to guess, I would say that it is merely the neurons in the frontal cortex playing with their self.
It is natural for the brain to avoid suffering and there is nothing wrong with that.
It’s one of the reasons that humans have prospered on earth.
But when the mind tries to avoid suffering caused by its own fevered delusions, it is only spinning wheels.
I am suggesting that running away from anything that exists only as an idea, takes a lot of energy that could be used simply being awareness itself.
Seekers devote an inordinate amount of time gathering and stacking shadows.
The spend their allotted time trying to perfect something that doesn’t even exist.
Believe it or not, I actually love life.
I donate a lot of money to charity, love many people, have volunteered for years at the local hospice.
Most of my time is spent in an unquestioning openness.
I see the world much as my fifteen month old granddaughter does.
My days are mostly filled with joyful anticipation of the unexpected.
I watch people wrestle imaginary demons and wonder what their life would be like if their thinking was stripped of the burden of the accumulated fear-based dogma of their ancestors.
I watch as they polish and protect an imaginary jewel.

What the mind calls choice is not involved in this imaginary dilemma.

In a strange way, I am not really talking to you as a person.

I am merely using what appears to be another persona as a sounding board.
I am bouncing ideas off the walls of my own imaginary prison.
And I thank you for this time together.

 

[ Edited: 04 September 2012 11:06 AM by toombaru]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 20 September 2012 12:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
Newbie
Rank
Total Posts:  4
Joined  2012-09-19

Hi toombaru,
      I respect your experience and may I say that I can sort of understand what you are getting at here. I once saw an Indian movie “Siddhartha” based on Herman Hesse’s novel of the same name. It summarized all this very lucidly. How the mind falls in its own trap when it creates this target ‘enlightenment’ ,actually creating dissatisfaction with the present state because there is ,apparently,somewhere better to be reached.I feel these are just tricks of the mind or should I say its nature to do this.I mean what is this enlightenment anyway? controlling your thoughts,emotions? I think the dissatisfaction with the present state leads us to think that there is some state of absolute bliss, even though we don’t know that means. So maybe this seeking is the problem itself. The mind creates this goal to be reached, and becomes obsessed with this goal, so it creates a state of dissatisfaction for itself. It judges that the present state is not acceptable and so it meditates in order to reach the imaginary state of bliss or peacefulness.But, in reality these are just games played by the mind.The duality of dissatisfaction-satisfaction or enlightenment—non-enlightenment is a creation of the mind, so it cannot be overcome by the mind.  As you say you have meditated for 14 years, I am sure if that’s true , u know what u r talking about.Even in a meditator’s life the mind is busy, assessing its progress, judging others and how they are the slaves of their impulses etc.
    Even when we are meditating there is the feeling that I am the meditator. Don’t you think setting up of such goals by the mind is like the dog chasing its own tail? Enlightenment and non-enlightenment are just concepts created by the mind, aren’t they? Isn’t the quest for achieving ‘enlightenment’ a ploy by the ego/mind to boost itself and in a way self-delusion in same way as other pursuits of the mind. Aren’t we already THAT?
  I would love to hear your views about this.

[ Edited: 20 September 2012 01:31 AM by acrobat]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 20 September 2012 09:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]  
Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  802
Joined  2010-11-12
acrobat - 20 September 2012 12:56 AM

Hi toombaru,
      I respect your experience and may I say that I can sort of understand what you are getting at here. I once saw an Indian movie “Siddhartha” based on Herman Hesse’s novel of the same name. It summarized all this very lucidly. How the mind falls in its own trap when it creates this target ‘enlightenment’ ,actually creating dissatisfaction with the present state because there is ,apparently,somewhere better to be reached.I feel these are just tricks of the mind or should I say its nature to do this.I mean what is this enlightenment anyway? controlling your thoughts,emotions? I think the dissatisfaction with the present state leads us to think that there is some state of absolute bliss, even though we don’t know that means. So maybe this seeking is the problem itself. The mind creates this goal to be reached, and becomes obsessed with this goal, so it creates a state of dissatisfaction for itself. It judges that the present state is not acceptable and so it meditates in order to reach the imaginary state of bliss or peacefulness.But, in reality these are just games played by the mind.The duality of dissatisfaction-satisfaction or enlightenment—non-enlightenment is a creation of the mind, so it cannot be overcome by the mind.  As you say you have meditated for 14 years, I am sure if that’s true , u know what u r talking about.Even in a meditator’s life the mind is busy, assessing its progress, judging others and how they are the slaves of their impulses etc.
    Even when we are meditating there is the feeling that I am the meditator. Don’t you think setting up of such goals by the mind is like the dog chasing its own tail? Enlightenment and non-enlightenment are just concepts created by the mind, aren’t they? Isn’t the quest for achieving ‘enlightenment’ a ploy by the ego/mind to boost itself and in a way self-delusion in same way as other pursuits of the mind. Aren’t we already THAT?
  I would love to hear your views about this.


There are no authorities in these matters.
No one knows more than anyone else about things made up.
Run from anyone who tells you they know the truth and can help you find something they possess.
Sentient life progresses because it has an innate insecurity.
It seeks to soothe its ever emerging angst.
The conceptual mind is a program evolved to “search for something better”.
It was born hungry and will die hungry.
Man’s imaginary psychological perspective is not exempt from this agenda.
That is the fundament out of which all metaphysical thoughts arise.
All religions attempt to define and extend the life of the self and its host.
The sense of self evolved to help the organism survive and reproduce.
It is the primary reason that humans dominate the earth.
But it is a phantom that enters a private shadowland when it attempts to improve itself.
It is practising medicine in the morgue.
It can’t improve itself simply because the self does not exist.
It tries to find shadows with a flashlight.
It is applying makeup to the mirror.
It is shooting arrows at smoke.
It cannot elevate itself or escape its imaginary circumstances.
It arranges and rearranges its acquired concepts hoping to find the magic combination that will expel its very logical fears.
Enlightenment is its annihilation.
There is another perspective that simply embraces the limitations, the unknowing, the fear, and the emotional turmoil.
There is great joy in simply being a living, pulsating center of scintillating awareness.
It is flying headless through a vast mystery in which the sight of a hummingbird or a grandchild’s smile is enough to pull one into the most sublime bliss.

 

 

Profile
 
 
Posted: 20 September 2012 08:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]  
Newbie
Rank
Total Posts:  4
Joined  2012-09-19
toombaru - 20 September 2012 09:53 AM
acrobat - 20 September 2012 12:56 AM

Hi toombaru,
      I respect your experience and may I say that I can sort of understand what you are getting at here. I once saw an Indian movie “Siddhartha” based on Herman Hesse’s novel of the same name. It summarized all this very lucidly. How the mind falls in its own trap when it creates this target ‘enlightenment’ ,actually creating dissatisfaction with the present state because there is ,apparently,somewhere better to be reached.I feel these are just tricks of the mind or should I say its nature to do this.I mean what is this enlightenment anyway? controlling your thoughts,emotions? I think the dissatisfaction with the present state leads us to think that there is some state of absolute bliss, even though we don’t know that means. So maybe this seeking is the problem itself. The mind creates this goal to be reached, and becomes obsessed with this goal, so it creates a state of dissatisfaction for itself. It judges that the present state is not acceptable and so it meditates in order to reach the imaginary state of bliss or peacefulness.But, in reality these are just games played by the mind.The duality of dissatisfaction-satisfaction or enlightenment—non-enlightenment is a creation of the mind, so it cannot be overcome by the mind.  As you say you have meditated for 14 years, I am sure if that’s true , u know what u r talking about.Even in a meditator’s life the mind is busy, assessing its progress, judging others and how they are the slaves of their impulses etc.
    Even when we are meditating there is the feeling that I am the meditator. Don’t you think setting up of such goals by the mind is like the dog chasing its own tail? Enlightenment and non-enlightenment are just concepts created by the mind, aren’t they? Isn’t the quest for achieving ‘enlightenment’ a ploy by the ego/mind to boost itself and in a way self-delusion in same way as other pursuits of the mind. Aren’t we already THAT?
  I would love to hear your views about this.


There are no authorities in these matters.
No one knows more than anyone else about things made up.
Run from anyone who tells you they know the truth and can help you find something they possess.
Sentient life progresses because it has an innate insecurity.
It seeks to soothe its ever emerging angst.
The conceptual mind is a program evolved to “search for something better”.
It was born hungry and will die hungry.
Man’s imaginary psychological perspective is not exempt from this agenda.
That is the fundament out of which all metaphysical thoughts arise.
All religions attempt to define and extend the life of the self and its host.
The sense of self evolved to help the organism survive and reproduce.
It is the primary reason that humans dominate the earth.
But it is a phantom that enters a private shadowland when it attempts to improve itself.
It is practising medicine in the morgue.
It can’t improve itself simply because the self does not exist.
It tries to find shadows with a flashlight.
It is applying makeup to the mirror.
It is shooting arrows at smoke.
It cannot elevate itself or escape its imaginary circumstances.
It arranges and rearranges its acquired concepts hoping to find the magic combination that will expel its very logical fears.
Enlightenment is its annihilation.
There is another perspective that simply embraces the limitations, the unknowing, the fear, and the emotional turmoil.
There is great joy in simply being a living, pulsating center of scintillating awareness.
It is flying headless through a vast mystery in which the sight of a hummingbird or a grandchild’s smile is enough to pull one into the most sublime bliss.

 


I get a sense of what you are trying to say but I would still like you to clarify a few things you’ve said:-

“The sense of self evolved to help the organism survive and reproduce.” 
—But organisms were and are able to survive and reproduce without a sense of self,like bacteria and insects etc. So isn’t this statement contra-factual?

“There is another perspective that simply embraces the limitations, the unknowing, the fear, and the emotional turmoil.”
—Does this mean we should be ‘passive’,for the lack of a better word, to all that we face in life? Just accept everything that happens to us without reacting?

“It is flying headless through a vast mystery in which the sight of a hummingbird or a grandchild’s smile is enough to pull one into the most sublime bliss.”
—Aren’t we ‘flying headless through a vast mystery’ as it is, that describes how we live our lives, doesn’t it?
I am sorry, but I find myself unable to get to the heart of the argument you are trying to make here.

Thanks in advance.

 

 

Profile
 
 
Posted: 20 September 2012 10:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]  
Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  802
Joined  2010-11-12
acrobat - 20 September 2012 08:43 PM
toombaru - 20 September 2012 09:53 AM
acrobat - 20 September 2012 12:56 AM

Hi toombaru,
      I respect your experience and may I say that I can sort of understand what you are getting at here. I once saw an Indian movie “Siddhartha” based on Herman Hesse’s novel of the same name. It summarized all this very lucidly. How the mind falls in its own trap when it creates this target ‘enlightenment’ ,actually creating dissatisfaction with the present state because there is ,apparently,somewhere better to be reached.I feel these are just tricks of the mind or should I say its nature to do this.I mean what is this enlightenment anyway? controlling your thoughts,emotions? I think the dissatisfaction with the present state leads us to think that there is some state of absolute bliss, even though we don’t know that means. So maybe this seeking is the problem itself. The mind creates this goal to be reached, and becomes obsessed with this goal, so it creates a state of dissatisfaction for itself. It judges that the present state is not acceptable and so it meditates in order to reach the imaginary state of bliss or peacefulness.But, in reality these are just games played by the mind.The duality of dissatisfaction-satisfaction or enlightenment—non-enlightenment is a creation of the mind, so it cannot be overcome by the mind.  As you say you have meditated for 14 years, I am sure if that’s true , u know what u r talking about.Even in a meditator’s life the mind is busy, assessing its progress, judging others and how they are the slaves of their impulses etc.
    Even when we are meditating there is the feeling that I am the meditator. Don’t you think setting up of such goals by the mind is like the dog chasing its own tail? Enlightenment and non-enlightenment are just concepts created by the mind, aren’t they? Isn’t the quest for achieving ‘enlightenment’ a ploy by the ego/mind to boost itself and in a way self-delusion in same way as other pursuits of the mind. Aren’t we already THAT?
  I would love to hear your views about this.


There are no authorities in these matters.
No one knows more than anyone else about things made up.
Run from anyone who tells you they know the truth and can help you find something they possess.
Sentient life progresses because it has an innate insecurity.
It seeks to soothe its ever emerging angst.
The conceptual mind is a program evolved to “search for something better”.
It was born hungry and will die hungry.
Man’s imaginary psychological perspective is not exempt from this agenda.
That is the fundament out of which all metaphysical thoughts arise.
All religions attempt to define and extend the life of the self and its host.
The sense of self evolved to help the organism survive and reproduce.
It is the primary reason that humans dominate the earth.
But it is a phantom that enters a private shadowland when it attempts to improve itself.
It is practising medicine in the morgue.
It can’t improve itself simply because the self does not exist.
It tries to find shadows with a flashlight.
It is applying makeup to the mirror.
It is shooting arrows at smoke.
It cannot elevate itself or escape its imaginary circumstances.
It arranges and rearranges its acquired concepts hoping to find the magic combination that will expel its very logical fears.
Enlightenment is its annihilation.
There is another perspective that simply embraces the limitations, the unknowing, the fear, and the emotional turmoil.
There is great joy in simply being a living, pulsating center of scintillating awareness.
It is flying headless through a vast mystery in which the sight of a hummingbird or a grandchild’s smile is enough to pull one into the most sublime bliss.

 


I get a sense of what you are trying to say but I would still like you to clarify a few things you’ve said:-

“The sense of self evolved to help the organism survive and reproduce.” 
—But organisms were and are able to survive and reproduce without a sense of self,like bacteria and insects etc. So isn’t this statement contra-factual?

“There is another perspective that simply embraces the limitations, the unknowing, the fear, and the emotional turmoil.”
—Does this mean we should be ‘passive’,for the lack of a better word, to all that we face in life? Just accept everything that happens to us without reacting?

“It is flying headless through a vast mystery in which the sight of a hummingbird or a grandchild’s smile is enough to pull one into the most sublime bliss.”
—Aren’t we ‘flying headless through a vast mystery’ as it is, that describes how we live our lives, doesn’t it?
I am sorry, but I find myself unable to get to the heart of the argument you are trying to make here.

Thanks in advance.

 

 


I am familiar with your quandary.
A thousand books…...dozens of teachers and techniques…....getting closer and closer to the ultimate understanding….....
....cutting the distance in half over and over.

Living organisms adapt to an always changing environment.
A better wing…....a longer claw….....and objectified world.
The mind of man creates a consensus conceptual overlay which helps the group and the individual
survive and reproduce.
Objects in the perceived world are conceptually separated and given a name.
“Rivers” and ‘mountains” appear to become things in themselves and the names are mistaken for an actual reality.
There is great benefit to the organism and its tribe to share a named world.
But when the names of things that have no material counterpart (love, morality, free will)  only confusion results.
The mind asks questions about things that actually do not exist.
It combines things material with things immaterial and into a pseudo reality.
At the center of this mind game emerges a psychological entity…...the I am.
It looks out into its conceptual collage and searches for its own meaning.
It almost never dawns that it doesn’t have one.

Thinking is structured to solve problems encountered by the organism.
It can build a shelter or plant a seed.
But it is not equipped to deal with questions that concern its own nature.

 

Profile
 
 
   
1 of 2
1
 
‹‹ Kant      Sam’s new thoughts on free will ››
RSS 2.0     Atom Feed