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Posted: 17 March 2005 07:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]  
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You are backpedeling, coward.  Have some strength and answer truthfully.  You are not answering because you cant even admit to yourself what you believe.
And its not just for me.  Everyone here wants to know your answers.  They are good questions that will reveal alot about your beliefs.
True or false! All 40 questions.

And by the way, if you answer all the questions, then I’ll have only one more true and false question for you.  Aren’t you curious to know what that might be?

Come on Champ, I know you got it in you to answer my questions.  Why are you afraid?  Jesus would answer; he wouldn’t have a problem.  He told it like it was. May be you don’t know the answers?

TRUE or FALSE, ALL 40 QUESTIONS!

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Posted: 17 March 2005 08:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]  
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Hey Blue, how are things? Just wanted to mention, Jesus loves ya!

grin

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Posted: 17 March 2005 10:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]  
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Blue, please help me convince Champ he shoud answer my 40 questions.  It’ll clear up the air alot about really how much this Jesus “loves ya”.

Champ. I’m not giving up.  I will continue to post my 40 questions til I get an answer from you.  And in a way, you are right not to answer.  If you do, you will have to admit publically you and your faith approves the endless torture of children in hell simply for never having heard of Jesus Christ and that you believe this is perfect and loving justice.  Now if this is not what you believe, answer the 40 questions. If it is, continue to ignore me.

The irony here champ is that you believe people are drawn to your faith because they are more moral and righteous.  But the truth is, only someone depraved and morally sick can call your god’s punishment just and righteous.

It could be a SF story:  God comes, but he gets rid of all the religious people and only saves the nonreligious.  The unbelievers were the only ones with enough strength of character and morality not to approve of all the barbaric crap in the holy books, and they were interested more in truth then saving their own skin.

[ Edited: 17 March 2005 11:50 AM by ]
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Posted: 17 March 2005 11:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]  
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A Lurker: I found the book in the library. I like books on faith and intellectual reasoning and the like. I skimmed through it. But after it was hard to take it seriously after the first chapter. The whole premise was illogical.

But let me say that I’ll be checking up on Sam Harris in the future. I’m sure he will have interesting articles and books in the future. He probably learned a good lesson with this book (if you read commentaries, his book was widely rejected as nonense).

Tom, can you read between the lines here?  TChamp has no answers of his own - he is seeking some from you (and anyone else on this forum who is willing to respond to his posts).  If I casually skimmed through a book that I found to be illogical and hard to take seriously, I would simply dismiss it and look for more interesting reading.  Instead, TChamp is apparently pursuing information whole-heartedly.  He has read all those commentaries about “The End of Faith”, has participated(???) frequently in this forum, and will be looking for more articles and books from Sam.  Sounds like a potential convert to me!  Anyone can use reference books to quote scripture and dogma, without ever expressing any ideas or opinions of their own.  There is a reason no one really knows what TChamp actually thinks or believes… he doesn’t know himself.  He is throwing all those ravings into the fray in order to get something back in return.  After all, if he truly is a self proclaimed disciple of god, he cannot question his belief in his god, can he?  I suppose he would be afraid of burning in hell.  Yep, that would be god’s punishment. 

Don’t expect any answers, Tom.  He really just doesn’t have any, cause he doesn’t know what he believes.

‘Nuf said.  Mark

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Posted: 17 March 2005 01:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]  
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Champ,

  I have been thinking about what you said and it doesn’t add up. First you said that because of Adam and Eve those who don’t believe in god and accept Jesus as their savior will be punished by being sent to hell when the believers get to go to heaven. When I brought up what happened to my father you said that god brought ruin to earth because of Adam and Eve, but that you could still see some of the old Garden of Eden breaking through. That smacks of revisionism, which amounts to changing your story to fit the facts. Sorry but your explanations don’t cut. From where I stand god has a hands off policy on earth.

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Posted: 17 March 2005 02:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]  
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That’s very astute of you, Blue.  Through the ages, the thumpers have been able to find support in the scriptures for ANY position they felt like taking, including, I might add, slavery!  That is why it is absolutly impossible to have a reasonable discussion with any of them.  No matter what you say, no matter what evidence you bring forth, they can refute it with ease, even if it means reversing a position they held 5 minutes ago, which, they will say, you didnt understand!  Don’t even bother!

Pete

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Posted: 18 March 2005 05:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]  
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Champ

Please answer Tom’s questions.  I am very interested in how you personally feel.  I already know the answers I found in the bible I want (and I think Tom also does) YOUR personal answers or the ones YOU personally found in the bible.

I would like to encourage everyone responding to Champ to start their post with a request that he answer Tom’s questions.


Ray

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Posted: 18 March 2005 05:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]  
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Ray…ray…ray…, Tom..tom…tom,

My personal views are ever continually being shaped by my ever increasing knowledge of the word of God? Personal views don’t really matter. They fade away at the moment of your last breath. The only thing that really matters with the Word of God. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but the Word of God will stand forever.

Those questions, any intellectual worth his salt knows the answers, so I don’t understand why the pressure to answer obvious questions. What gives? Or maybe…...just maybe…... you intellectuals know a lot of about biology, chemistry, calculus, physics, philosophy, and the like. All man’s knowledge and not a lick of sense-you know not God’s word?

I can answer those questions if you like. Guess I will, when I get around to it.

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Posted: 18 March 2005 01:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]  
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He’s just winding us up surely? I reckon it’s Noam having a laugh.
And if it’s not, we should act like it is, ‘cause it’s more fun.

And remember, never argue with a cretin - they’ll drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

If I may, I’ll refer to a post I made on a similar subject by a similar god-botherer in the Christian section: -


RE. I LOVE GOD

I don’t wish to be offensive (well actually I REALLY wish to be REALLY offensive - but I’m going to endeavour to deny myself the pleasure), but methinks this Mr Guest is a bit of a loony. Now I know all we liberal intellectual types would like to think that anyone can have their views modified through rational debate…but sometimes it’s just a waste of everyone’s time.

Whatever the actual reason for Mr Guest’s beliefs - an inappropriate abusive relationship with an adult, an inability to aquire desirable sexual partners, an ill-advised haircut in high-school etc. etc.- it seems to me that sexuality in general and homosexuality in particular engender in him a quite remarkable repugnance proof against the even the most articulate and reasonable arguments.

I would suggest, therefore, that this is merely one of those unfortunate cases where it’s easier to congratulate Mr Guest on his personal relationship with Jesus and wish him all the best in his journey to Heaven; leaving the rest of us free to actually discuss the fascinating issues raised by Mr Harris. In between frenzied bouts of ‘beasting’ naturally…

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Posted: 19 March 2005 12:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]  
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Hey Champ

Please answer Tom’s questions.  In all your posts you have seemed perfectly willing to share your views and ideas of what the bible says so why are you now getting so shy about sharing?  Please stop equivocating and stalling and answer Tom’s questions. 

“Or maybe…...just maybe…... you intellectuals know a lot of about biology, chemistry, calculus, physics, philosophy, and the like. All man’s knowledge and not a lick of sense-you know not God’s word?”

Why yes “just maybe” you are right, so give this poor intellectual without a lick of sense a break and answer Tom’s questions.

“I can answer those questions if you like. Guess I will, when I get around to it.”

Come on get around to it already.  There are only 40 and you are only being asked to answer true or false.  No bible quotes.  No elaboration.  No detail.  No equivocation.  Just 40 true or false answers please.  It shouldn’t take more than three minuets so why do you need to get around to it?

Ray

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Posted: 19 March 2005 01:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]  
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Champion,

Here you go Champ.  Even though I have given up on the bible as a source of truth more than 40 years ago I can still remember what I was taught.  So as an example to you I have answered all 40 of Tom’s questions in less than 5 min. using only my recollection of the of the bible acquired from 12 years of religion classes at a Catholic grade school and a Catholic high school.  This is what I was taught.  I would like to know does your views agree with the Catholic understanding of what the bible says?

For someone who professes in depth bible knowledge it should be even easier than it was for me.

1.Hell was created for Satan and his angels by God.  TRUE

2.People’s souls will be tormented by Satan if they fail to meet God’s standards for life in heaven.  TRUE

3.People’s souls will be tormented, but not by Satan, if they fail to meet God’s standards for life in heaven.  FALSE

4.The length of time of the torment for failing to meet God’s standards for life in heaven is eternal.  TRUE

5.The length of time of the torment for failing to meet God’s standards for life in heaven is limited.  FALSE

6.The torment of souls in Hell can be described a continuous horrible anguish.  TRUE

7.The torment of souls in Hell can be described as mildly unpleasent.  FALSE

8.The torment of souls in Hell can be described as continuous intense pain as bad as or worse than anything our earthly bodies could experience.  TRUE

9.The age of the individual at his/her death is considered before God damns a soul to Hell.  FALSE

10.The age of the individual at his/her death is not considered before God damns a soul to Hell.  TRUE

11.No one who dies before the age of 18 will be damned to Hell.  FALSE

12.No one who dies before the age of 14 will be damned to Hell.  FALSE

13.No one who dies before the age of 10 will be damned to Hell.  FALSE

14.No one who dies before the age of 5 will be damned to Hell.  FALSE

15.There are only two places souls may be sent to after death; Heaven or Hell.  TRUE

16.Unrepentant homosexuality is enough of a sin to be sent to Hell.  TRUE

17.Unrepentant worship of Allah is enough of a sin to be sent to Hell.  TRUE

18.Unrepentant worship of any God other than The Champion’s God is enough of a sin to be sent to Hell.  TRUE

19.Not believing that Jesus is the Son of God is enough of a sin to be sent to Hell.  TRUE

20.Doubting that Jesus is the Son of God is enough of a sin to be sent to Hell.  TRUE

21.Having never heard of Jesus is enough of a sin to be sent to Hell.  TRUE

22.Not loving God is enough of a sin to be sent to Hell.  TRUE

23.Not loving Jesus is enough of a sin to be sent to Hell.  TRUE

24.Unrepentant smoking is enough of a sin to be sent to Hell.  FALSE

25.Drinking 6 beers every night is enough of a sin to be sent to Hell.  FALSE

26.It is possible there are souls as young as the age of 2 suffering in Hell.  TRUE

27.It is possible there are souls as young as the age of 8 suffering in Hell.  TRUE

28.It is possible there are souls as young as the age of 14 suffering in Hell.  TRUE

29.God’s love is perfect.  TRUE

30.God’s love is sometimes replaced with anger.  TRUE

31.I believe God’s justice is perfect.  FALSE

32.God’s justice makes sense to me.  FALSE

33.God’s justice seems a little harsh at times.  TRUE

34.I can understand why some sinful souls need to be tormented forever.  TRUE

35.Knowing that souls are being tormented for billions of years for 60 years of earthly sin seems reasonable to me.  FALSE

36.A person may not have killed anyone or even ever seriously physically hurt anyone yet they may still deserve to go to Hell.  TRUE

37.A person may not have killed anyone or even ever seriously physically hurt anyone, love his/her parents, children and fellow humans, and yet may still deserve to go to Hell.  TRUE

38.A person may not have killed anyone or even ever seriously physically hurt anyone, love his/her parents, children and fellow humans, try throughout his/her life to help others and yet may still deserve to go to Hell.  TRUE

39.A soul in heaven will be unbothered by the torment of souls in hell even if that soul in hell was a former son, daughter, brother, sister, father or mother, wife, or husband.  TRUE

40.Knowing your children are being tormented for billions of years in hell (if thats where they were sent by God) will not weaken your love of god or diminish the bliss of heaven if that is your reward.  TRUE

 

See how easy?  Come on, now it’s your turn.

Ray

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Posted: 19 March 2005 01:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]  
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Hmm, seems like Champ is a troll to me. Waste of time trying to get any answers from him.

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Posted: 19 March 2005 09:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]  
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Champion-I am getting into this late, but like the others, I am compelled to respond to such a pompous display of irrationality.

I have long ago learned to back off from any attempt to have a discourse of ideas with anyone as wrapped in religious dogma as you seem to be. It is as much a waste of time as trying to convince a mentally ill patient with Schizophrenia that the voices that they hear are not real. It cannot be done with rational arguments. The same applies to you. Any attempt to use compelling arguments based in rational thinking is a complete waste of one’s time and effort.

I imagine that you delight in ruffling the feathers of those who understand reason. Unfortunately, many of those good people try to reason with you and therein lies the problem. You and your brethren suffer from something akin to mental illness. Rational arguments are a complete waste of time because you do not live in that world or abide by its tenets.

Believe me when I say that I could just as easily argue that there is a Santa Claus as you argue that there is a God. The two beliefs have much more in common than you would initially think. 

You of course would think that my arguments for Santa’s existence were absurd and would discount me completely. That is how the rational minority view your beliefs.

I do have two questions for you. How did human beings attain salvation prior to the birth of Jesus Christ?

Also, how do humans gain salvation if their place of birth and formal upbringing never allowed them to gain access to the “words” of the new Testamant concerning salvation? I am speaking about now and for the past two thousand years.

It is a subject that I find compelling with respect to your dogma. Phil T Murrieta, CA

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Posted: 19 March 2005 10:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]  
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ptripp, those answers can be found in the response to Tom/Ray, Questions in the Key of Life.

By the way, Mr. Tripp. Two things. 1) I do not delight in ruffling feathers, as you say. Rather, I’ve delight in seeing that faith in Christ is being discussed and debated by intellectuals. I think that is great. It is hard to penetrate their circles and thus, this might be a whole new world for them.

Two, a recent poll by Time Magazine showed that 79% of the country believed in the Judeo-Christian God. That means that 31% of you in this country are irrational, according to the 79%. Just a thought.

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Posted: 19 March 2005 11:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]  
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Champion- I apologize if your agenda is not to ruffle feathers as I referred to it. In your early comments, you are pretty flagrant in your pronunciation of faith. In a web site of non-believers, that came across as showboating to me.

It was quite painful to read Tom’s 40 questions. He has a great deal of passion and, like I said before, is trying to engage you in a rational discourse. It is of course a fruitless endeavor because you are an A student in citing the teachings of the bible that you guard so closely. There doesn’t appear to be one iota of individual thought coming from you, but you are brilliant at reciting scripture.

You have answered my two questions by essentially telling me to find my answers in the bible. There isn’t a lot of thought on that one.

I can assure you that most of us don’t consider discourse with you a debate. For most of us, we have the answers that we seek and they do not involve your God or Jesus Christ. We really aren’t debating whether you are right or not. We know the answers. We just can’t figure out why what is obvious to us, is hidden from view for the majority of all religions, not just yours.

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