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The Dawkins Delusion
Posted: 24 January 2007 03:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 151 ]  
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Religion is an adherence to codified beliefs. Atheism is a lack of belief in a god(s). There is no belief, hence, there is no religion.

Keep telling yourself Atheism is not that you believe there is no god(s). Atheism is that you have no belief in god(s), keep buying the books and start biulding your atheist meeting buildings. History will judge you otherwise. If you want to classify yourself by your belief, you are religious.

Besides, Buddhism is a dharmic, non-theistic religion, a philosophy, and a system of psychology.(wikipedia)

So therefor; You are religious. Good job conforming.  You are so differant, yet exactly the same.

Just buy another book.

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Posted: 24 January 2007 03:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 152 ]  
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Bad_Conduct,

Athiesm is the knowledge I have that YOU believe in God.

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Posted: 24 January 2007 04:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 153 ]  
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This has been part of the misunderstanding of Atheism. It is NOT a belief. There is no belief whatsoever. There is a lack of belief. In other words, there is an inference, a calculation, a deduction that there is no god(s). How many times do we have to go through this? I HAVE NO BELIEF… in anything. I infere, I calculate, I deduce based on rational (a true or false claim based on objective, empirical evidence) thought. I may experience non-rational thoughts as well such as preference, emotion, and so on. Belief and/or Faith falls into neither of these categories, so what’s left? Irrational thought. We term irrational thought as being a lower form of process. We can certainly have irrational thoughts that are wonderful and fully experiential in a positive way, but this does not negate them being irrational thoughts. If belief can only be termed as an irrational thought, what does it make it? A wholly inept form of thinking, when subscribed to as a totality or supplied as any sort of evidence. Thus, any opinion that stems from an irrational thought must be given the credit that it is due… very little, for lack of objective, referential evidence.

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Posted: 24 January 2007 04:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 154 ]  
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[quote author=“Bad_Conduct”]Keep telling yourself Atheism is not that you believe there is no god(s). Atheism is that you have no belief in god(s), keep buying the books and start biulding your atheist meeting buildings. History will judge you otherwise. If you want to classify yourself by your belief, you are religious.

Besides, Buddhism is a dharmic, non-theistic religion, a philosophy, and a system of psychology.(wikipedia)

So therefor; You are religious. Good job conforming.  You are so differant, yet exactly the same.

Just buy another book.

Get a life.

Or read the bible before you engage in your meaningless argumentation that an empty plate is a type of dinner.

2 Timothy 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 
2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 
2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

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Posted: 24 January 2007 04:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 155 ]  
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Get a life.

Or read the bible before you engage in your meaningless argumentation that an empty plate is a type of dinner.

Yah, I’ll stop doing what you’re doing and have a life. Owch.

This has been part of the misunderstanding of Atheism. It is NOT a belief. There is no belief whatsoever.

It’s the belief in “a lack of belief”. You believe what you infere, calculate, deduce based on rational (a true or false claim based on objective, empirical evidence) thought. Esentially, you have formed a belief system based on the evidence provided by others.

You believe in no God, and no after life.

Athiesm is the knowledge I have that YOU believe in God.

You “believe” there is no God.

You guys are just buying into athiesm. It’s a product, like religion. You are sitting here, debating religion, talking about religious characters and planning atheist meetings.

You’re attempt to turn away from religion just ended you up on a parallel road. You still conform and adjust to the atheist standards. You change your beliefs to match those of the elite to justify your atheism.

You guys are so sold into atheism, you are just as blind as those who buy into religions tactics. Stop buying books about nothing and I’ll believe it’s not a religion.

Even when I successfully prove a point with visual evidence, you just disagree and spill slander. You are no better than any religious person you dislike. You mock those who commit homosexual acts yet you commit them willfully yourselves. It’s like a forum for harrassing people only because their religious. It doesn’t matter what they do, as long as they are religious it gives you further justification to lower their level when you fail to bring yourselves up.

What has atheism done for the world? Nothing. It’s just as pointless as the religion you condem.

It’s ok, you guys are welcome to conform and buy into Atheism. It doesn’t bother me one bit. I’ll write a book about how bad religion is just so you buy it and make me rich. Are you that blind?

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Posted: 24 January 2007 04:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 156 ]  
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It’s the belief in “a lack of belief”. You believe what you infere, calculate, deduce based on rational (a true or false claim based on objective, empirical evidence) thought. Esentially, you have formed a belief system based on the evidence provided by others.

Please, for the sake of your own education, do some reading on Socrates, perhaps take a class in philosophy. You are way off base here. A lack of belief is not a belief. I don’t believe that the sun will rise tomorrow, I also don’t know that the sun will rise tomorrow. To say that I BELIEVE that the sun will rise tomorrow denotes a certainty outside of rational knowledge. I infere that the sun will rise tomorrow, I deduce based on past occurance, based on cosmological geometry and astrophysics (I may know little about these subjects but I’m able to make educated calculations based upon what little I know). I don’t BELIEVE that the plane will fly. I’ve witnessed other planes flying, I flown myself, I understand (at basic levels) the Bernoulli Principle and from that I can infere that the plane will fly again (if all constants are equal). I’ve done my best to get rid of the word BELIEF in my everyday language a) because it is often misused b) because I don’t require BELIEF at any point to go through my day. An INFERENCE is not a BELIEF; it is a calculated deduction based upon the empirical evidence at hand. I INFERE that there is no GOD, I DEDUCE that there is no GOD, I CALCULATE, I THEORIZE… all based on either a lack of or growing mound of empirical, objective evidence that there is NO GOD. In the end there either is a God(s) or there isn’t a God(s). If there is a God, then it becomes, based upon empirical evidence (afterlife, heaven, whatever…) a rational true/false claim. However, this possibility does not make it rational to BELIEVE in God. If God exists and he/she/it is found to exist then there is no longer BELIEF, there is knowledge (a verified and true BELIEF). But then, we wouldn’t be having this delightful existential conversation. And maybe that’s all God(s) really is; a conversation piece :twisted:

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Posted: 24 January 2007 04:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 157 ]  
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Please, for the sake of your own education, do some reading on Socrates, perhaps take a class in philosophy. You are way off base here. A lack of belief is not a belief. I don’t believe that the sun will rise tomorrow, I also don’t know that the sun will rise tomorrow.


You are already asking me to buy a book. Do you not see the product placement? The advertising? Should I smoke a Marolboro well I read? Who cares about what Socrates said, he killed himself because he was actually an idiot in the end. It’s just bullshit, stop buying into it. If I can’t see it, I can’t believe it. Nothing is real until I have been there and seen it for myself. I’ll take your word for it if I have too, but everyone is full of shit these days. There are a million questions to every “fact”.

To say that I BELIEVE that the sun will rise tomorrow denotes a certainty outside of rational knowledge.

If the self-aware Universe decides the sun will not rise tomorrow, you will have no sun rise. Do you really think your rational thought is above the Universe an it’s infinite amount of possibilities? No matter what you think is correct, it could be completely wrong tomorrow. It is foolish to assume the Sun will rise tomorrow. You should be prepared for the possibility it will not rise tomorrow. You could go blind. There are infinite possibilities.

I don’t BELIEVE that the plane will fly.

I believe a plane will fly from one airport to another airport. How many people said “I don’t believe this” on September 11th?

An INFERENCE is not a BELIEF; it is a calculated deduction based upon the empirical evidence at hand. I INFERE that there is no GOD, I DEDUCE that there is no GOD, I CALCULATE, I THEORIZE…

You believe that, without reason, all things that are will remain the same. Calculations cannot always be taken seriously, the Moon will interfer with Gravity and the Moon is forever changing. You can’t just make assumptions on old information. There is going to be a lot of change in the future. More change than the past can understand.

God exists and he/she/it is found to exist then there is no longer BELIEF, there is knowledge (a verified and true BELIEF).

Is all existence self aware? Yes, that is why there is Karma, that is why there is Irony. Even if there was solid evidence, you would still disbelieve. You already bought the book for $20, and you can only sell it for $10. I said, I can write a book on how to be an atheist and still be religious just to make a few bucks. It all comes down to money.

We have already seperated CHURCH and STATE. When will you start to seperate REALITY from ADVERTISING? If you haven’t seen it, it is not real. If you have seen it, it will never happen the same again. You cannot hire actors and recreate history. It will never be the same twice.

Keep buying the books, and they will keep printing them. You still have yet to solve the war in Iraq, or poverty, or AID’s. You know all the problems but you have yet to find any valuable solutions.

You don’t understand the full spectrum of the Universe. You are completely insignificant, you cannot move stars or planets. You cannot create life. You are completely useless until you make yourself otherwise.

Sure, we are God’s creation and God loves us, but if God decides we’re useless and taking more than we give, we will be annihilated.

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Posted: 24 January 2007 04:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 158 ]  
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[quote author=“Bad_Conduct”]You guys are so sold into atheism, you are just as blind as those who buy into religions tactics. Stop buying books about nothing and I’ll believe it’s not a religion.

That day will indeed come.
1000 years from now, atheism will only be remembered as a transition from superstition to rationality. Atheism in principle, but there will be no theists to argue with, so claiming that you are an atheist will be like claiming you are a human.

And all your arguments that atheism is a religion will work just as well on any organisation or point of view. The Animal rights movement is also a religion by your standards. They have meetings. They read books. They even have cute furry gods.

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Posted: 24 January 2007 05:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 159 ]  
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That day will indeed come.
1000 years from now, atheism will only be remembered as a transition from superstition to rationality. Atheism in principle, but there will be no theists to argue with, so claiming that you are an atheist will be like claiming you are a human.

10 years from now, religious fanatics who fear global warming could genocide all people who claim to be atheist and rewrite history (again). 1000 years from now, we’ll be lucky if anyone alive is even related to us. We’ll be lucky if Earth can even support life. You aren’t considering the full extent of change, infinite posibilities.

1000 years from now, the Andromeda Galaxy won’t give a flying fuck about what happeneds on Earth, it won’t even see it today for another 1000 years.

You are in no position to predict history.

And all your arguments that atheism is a religion will work just as well on any organisation or point of view. The Animal rights movement is also a religion by your standards. They have meetings. They read books. They even have cute furry gods.

It is, Animals don’t have rights. It’s a product they sell to people to get money. Money. Animals don’t need money or human protection. If anything, they need human respect so they can protect themselves.

Save our sharks.
But if a Shark kills someone, we kill two.
That’s not justice.
Let’s go smash some baby seals with clubs Canadian style.

You are “Buying Into” someone else’s idea.

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Posted: 24 January 2007 05:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 160 ]  
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[quote author=“Bad_Conduct”]I believe a plane will fly from one airport to another airport.

Me too.

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Posted: 24 January 2007 05:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 161 ]  
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You are already asking me to buy a book.

When did I ask you to buy a book?

Who cares about what Socrates said, he killed himself because he was actually an idiot in the end.

An idiot who proposed an rational alternative to the idea of gods.

If I can’t see it, I can’t believe it.

But you’re buying into the idea of God?

Nothing is real until I have been there and seen it for myself.

Not true. Reality can be experienced through objective, empirical evidence.

If the self-aware Universe decides the sun will not rise tomorrow, you will have no sun rise. Do you really think your rational thought is above the Universe an it’s infinite amount of possibilities? No matter what you think is correct, it could be completely wrong tomorrow. It is foolish to assume the Sun will rise tomorrow. You should be prepared for the possibility it will not rise tomorrow. You could go blind. There are infinite possibilities.

I’m in awe of you inability to respond to the question or statement.

I believe a plane will fly from one airport to another airport.

No, you’re inferring, you’re deducing based on rational true/false claims (you’ve witnessed planes flying before… verified and true belief = knowledge).

How many people said “I don’t believe this” on September 11th?

Those people are using the wrong language to descibe their non-rational reactions to an event. What they are really saying is that “I can’t accept this, I don’t understand this action”... a completely different statement.

You believe that, without reason, all things that are will remain the same.

No, I INFERE that, with reason, and knowledge, and that the circumstances are not so far removed for the event to occur with a probable regularity, that the event will occur.

Calculations cannot always be taken seriously, the Moon will interfer with Gravity and the Moon is forever changing.

Which is precisely why I INFERE. I do not KNOW. Knowing is based on a true/false claim. There is a definate, and progressively positive possibility that I will be right, again, if the conditions are close to or precisely the same.

Is all existence self aware? Yes, that is why there is Karma

No, that is why you BELIEVE there is Karma. There is no empirical evidence that claims that “what goes around comes around”. There is perhaps some annecdotal hope that this is the case, but for it to be empirical evidence, it would have to be a repeatable phenomenon, without fail.

Sure, we are God’s creation and God loves us, but if God decides we’re useless and taking more than we give, we will be annihilated.

This is an IRRATIONAL thought based upon a lack of empirical and objective evidence. You have this notion that BELIEF translates to knowledge without a varification of its truth. I’m not saying that you’re not justified in your BELIEF… it is what it is. And I’m not saying that you cannot BELIEVE in GOD. In fact, it is, at this moment, without empirical, objective evidence, the only way to quantify God’s existance… through belief/faith. What I am saying is that I am not part of the argument for either the existance or non-existance of God. Understand this difference between believing Atheists and Atheists that lack belief and perhaps you’ll understand that the two ideologies are not compatable. One still espouses a belief system, the other does not.

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Posted: 24 January 2007 05:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 162 ]  
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[quote author=“JGrice02”]By definition, in his mind atheism is dogmatic; it must be dogmatic if it is to be consistent.  As such, dogmatism in an inherent quality of atheism.  Now, I don’t think that is true of all atheists but it is certainly true of many.

What you fail to understand is that all atheists can be converted - with proof. It’s just that we’re so used to christians claiming this and that without any proof, that we tend to dismiss everything. But once you can actually get GOD to appear, you’ll see that 99% of all Atheists change their minds.

Do you understand the difference between: “You don’t have a car.” and “If you can’t show me that car, then you don’t have it”?
The first is dogmatic. The second is not. The reason why atheists sound dogmatic is because in 2000 years, we have not seen your bloody car. All we hear is “My car is so fast” “My car can go through walls.” “My car is bigger than yours “

So, this bragging and all these things that you’re incapable of proving start to get on our nerves so much that we cease to give you the benefit of the doubt. We just treat you like an idiot. If we’re patient, we let you go on and on about your great car while we try to close our ears. But other times, when you want us to pay for your insurance, we will be frank. And then you’ll say “You’re dogmatic. I will run over you with my car.”
But we know that you don’t have a car.

[ Edited: 24 January 2007 05:52 PM by ]
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Posted: 24 January 2007 05:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 163 ]  
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When did I ask you to buy a book?

You mentioned reading Socrates. He’s an author, above all else.

An idiot who proposed an rational alternative to the idea of gods.

Than killed himself because he was so focused on nothing that the realization he couldn’t change reality scared the life out of him. He had a million idea’s of how things should be, but no control over how it was. He couldn’t defy God, regardless of what he thought about it.

But you’re buying into the idea of God?

God isn’t for sale, I spend no money on belief. I am borrowing God. When God tells me his real name, I will be happy to use it. I won’t buy his book.

Not true. Reality can be experienced through objective, empirical evidence.

Reality is in a constant form of change. What is true today could prove false tomorrow.

I’m in awe of you inability to respond to the question or statement.

To be honest, I didn’t really understand your point. You just rambeled.

No, you’re inferring, you’re deducing based on rational true/false claims (you’ve witnessed planes flying before… verified and true belief = knowledge).

Some planes fly to airports, some planes fly to buildings, some planes fly a foot, some planes don’t fly. Planes are capible of anything a person in a plane is capible of. The possibilities are endless because not every plane has been created. Assuming I know what a plane can do will just limit the ability to design a better plane. Sometimes everything freezes.

Those people are using the wrong language to descibe their non-rational reactions to an event. What they are really saying is that “I can’t accept this, I don’t understand this action”... a completely different statement.

If that is what they ment, that is what they would have said. They didn’t believe it, they thought it was a movie, even when other people said it was true. It probally took an hour to sink in.

No, I INFERE that, with reason, and knowledge, and that the circumstances are not so far removed for the event to occur with a probable regularity, that the event will occur.

Yes, you believe. But belief, as you know, is not always true.

No, that is why you BELIEVE there is Karma. There is no empirical evidence that claims that “what goes around comes around”. There is perhaps some annecdotal hope that this is the case, but for it to be empirical evidence, it would have to be a repeatable phenomenon, without fail.

I will be the fist of Karma. When I want Karma, I will make it so.

I am saying is that I am not part of the argument for either the existance or non-existance of God.

Atheists don’t believe in the religious form of God. The Universe, the actual God, doesn’t care if the Bible is right or wrong. It is only concerned with itself as of right now. That’s why we are alive today, and not in Biblical times.

Think about this: The Universe is self-aware. When you do something wrong and you hide it, you (personally) may never hear about it again. It’s true. Regardless, you have made an uncorrectable mistake in the whole of the Universe. Something had to pay the cost of your mistake. Something, somewhere, at some point in time, will suffer the consequences. For every action, there is a reaction.

When someone steals your car; you call the police. Karma.

On the other hand, if you do things correctly, you will find yourself with a lot more control of your life.

KFD - the problem is that a lot of people would lie about owning the car. You have difficulty finding the lies from the truths (regardless of evidence, which is basically just someone elses opinion anyway) because you have problems trusting people. I don’t blame you.
Most of the “reality” we see is product placement and advertising.

CNN New’s, brought to you by: ___________.

[ Edited: 24 January 2007 05:56 PM by ]
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Posted: 24 January 2007 05:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 164 ]  
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[quote author=“Bad_Conduct”]Reality is in a constant form of change. What is true today could prove false tomorrow.

Apart from your religion naturally.

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Posted: 24 January 2007 06:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 165 ]  
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Bad_Conduct = Dead Horse or Brickwall.

One final stab at his apparent rationality.

If I can’t see it, I can’t believe it.

You cannot see God (I won’t finish this sentence to its rational conclusion based upon your above statement). You cannot KNOW God, therefore, you are left with BELIEF. An IRRATIONAL adherence to a thinking process without objective, empirical proof of claim. It is what it is. This is fine. But an IRRATIONAL thought is still an IRRATIONAL thought.

If that is what they ment, that is what they would have said.

I would completely disagree with this statement. People often use the word/term BELIEF to quantify a whole bevy of experience; it’s what they’ve been taught to use as some sort of catch-all word for the apparent indiscribable nature of some forms of experience (among other things). People have been taught incorrectly as to the nature of such language/word/term and how it pertains to a given situation (again, among other things). If someone says that “I don’t believe that plane just flew into those buildings”, they are not making a statement that conforms to the requirements of belief. Remember, in this specific instance, they have witnessed (according to current reality) an event that, based upon the available evidence is both verified and true. This is KNOWLEDGE and not BELIEF. This places their reactions and statements along a different path. Again, such as, “I don’t understand why this is happening”, “I don’t understand how this is happening”, “I am unable to accept this true/false claim/event due to my non-rational (emotional) response”. Of course, people don’t talk this way, so they use the catch-all term “BELIEVE”, but again, BELIEF doesn’t enter into this statement, it’s term is only used.

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