jgrice02 said
I think McGrath and other theists would say theism is based on facts
The facts,
Two books, the old and new testaments. Both are full of erroneous facts (creation, flood, mechanics of the universe, unicorns etc). Both contain violence and bigotry. There are many conflicts within the texts between various authors.
Miracles have not been shown to exist. Prayers have not been shown to help (no prayer has ever restored a missing limb).
Wars between religious sects continue to be common, even today.
Two books, the old and new testaments. Both are full of erroneous facts (creation, flood, mechanics of the universe, unicorns etc). Both contain violence and bigotry. There are many conflicts within the texts between various authors.
One actual book with two parts, The Bible. Two books is your own assumption, you are just guessing. This book contains the same elements that all other books contain (action, suspense, mystery, romance, murder). Many books have numerous authors, I could find a million example. The Bible never claims to have an author, that is part of the books value. King James made it english and available. This is a very old book that people have been reading for a thousand years. No book in this world is 100% accurate.
Miracles have not been shown to exist. Prayers have not been shown to help (no prayer has ever restored a missing limb).
Prayers have been shown to help people who may lose a limb to not lose it. If everyone prayed they wouldn’t die during WWII, and 50% of the soldiers died, than 50% of the prayers came true. It’s all in your head, it’s what you do in reality that counts.
Wars between religious sects continue to be common, even today.
There are no atheists in any military? That’s a poor assumption.
There is NOT ONE SINGLE FACT that points to the existence of God.
Funny. I would argue that everything we know as fact points to God. That is similar to what CS Lewis argued when he said, “I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.” Every fact in some way reveals God to us. Everything from Natural Revelation to Specific Revelation. None of it empirically prove that he exists, which I think is the manner in which you are using the word fact, but what does that matter when speaking of faith? Empirical proof is not necessary for belief in God. Indeed, it undermines the whole notion of faith to say one must have empirical proof in order to believe.
Let me give you an example of facts pointing to something that is not proven. Up until recently we had no proof that there is dark matter in the universe but all the facts seemed to point us in that direction. The peripheral facts did not themselves prove dark matter exists, but they did point us in that direction. The analogy is flawed, but the point is simple - even in science there are facts that point us toward something else; the difference being that belief in God ultimately requires faith whereas the existence of dark matter, though it might require faith at the moment, if it is a sound theory, will eventually be “empirically” proven to a degree of probability (if it is not already).
Prayers have been shown to help people who may lose a limb to not lose it. If everyone prayed they wouldn’t die during WWII, and 50% of the soldiers died, than 50% of the prayers came true. It’s all in your head, it’s what you do in reality that counts.
This does not help your point of view. You are not showing that prayer helps in any way. Those men would have lived whether or not anyone prayed for them.
There are no atheists in any military? That’s a poor assumption.
Who made that assumption? I’m an atheist and have been in the military since 1991 (ie milanst or military anesthesia). I was referring to conflicts like palestine v israel or somalia v ethiopia.
Numerous personal experiences and life events, such as karma and irony, prove otherwise.
This is not evidence. It is circumstantial at best. Irony is jews being burned at the stake by those who worship a jew.
jgrice02 said
“I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.”
This is only evidence of a natural world, not of a god.
Funny. I would argue that everything we know as fact points to DONALD DUCK. That is similar to what Bubba argued when he said, “I believe in Disneyland as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.” Every fact in some way reveals DONALD DUCK to us.
Do you have any facts about God which aren’t also facts about Donald Duck?
As I stated before, there is not one single fact that points to God.
It is the height of arrogance to conclude: 1) there is a god 2) that we are capable of understanding who or what god is. Most Christians lack humility. They believe we are made in god’s image, as though they know what god looks like. They believe mankind is the center of the universe, as though they know the nature of the universe. They judge others based upon god given mandates for conduct which assumes an understanding of how god thinks. They proudly claim that faith is a virtue but only their faith which is equally devoid of facts from any other. Worst of all, they say they believe that Jesus Christ was the son of god but their actions are completely contrary. Their lust for power and material gain is spiced with that hypocrisy which they justify with “other” excerpts from the bible.
The atheist alternative is not to claim to know what is not known but accept the fact that there are no empirical answers. That attitude is of course threatening to theists. When people are acting irrationally they are fearful of others who do not share their behavior. They fear seeing the obvious contradictions between who they are and what they believe.
It is the height of arrogance to conclude: 1) there is a god 2) that we are capable of understanding who or what god is. Most Christians lack humility… Their lust for power and material gain is spiced with that hypocrisy which they justify with “other” excerpts from the bible.
The height of arrogance? A little humility would go a long way in correcting your view of Christianity. And people wonder why atheism, taken to the extreme, is to be feared as much as any religious fundamentalist? I don’t wonder; fundamental atheism scares the crap out of me. The only difference is that atheistic fanatics will be doing things in the name of “Reason” instead of the name of “God”.
Indeed, people like you scare me. Not because your worldview excludes God. I wish you believed, but its not my job to convince you to believe and I can live with and respect your decision to be an atheist. I doubt you could say the same thing about theists, which is why extremist positions, such as the one you take, are dangerous. Perhaps that is what you want, for people to fear you. Maybe it is what Harris wants as well, though I don’t get that from him so much. But if you ask me, such a position will only drive people away from atheism and promote more evil in the world.
Thank God there are still people like William L. Rowe, a friendly atheist, who can respect and work with theists. But my guess is Rowe is a rare breed who can actually agree that Christianity is rational. He understands that a worldview can be philosophically rational and yet possibly wrong. For his part, he has never been able to get over the problem of evil. But he’s one of my favorite authors because of his fairness and respect for opposing worldview. He’s also a great writer. Here is to more William Rowe’s in this world…
As I stated before, there is not one single fact that points to God.
Sure there is. Your ability to reason, however flawed it might be, is a fact that points to God’s existence.
You stated that you understood this, but you seem to use the argument that “proof of God shows Christianity is right” often.
Not so much. I think evidence that points toward God is the first step. From that point other steps must be taken to arrive at the Christian God. I certainly don’t think the ability to reason means that the Christian God exists; simply that reason is a fact that points in the direction of God.
I own the book. What do they have to say about that?
You are not showing that prayer helps in any way. Those men would have lived whether or not anyone prayed for them.
Potentially, but they all did pray so the results are irrelavent. If none of them prayed, and the results were the same, I would agree. If none of them prayed and 100% of them died, I would disagree.
Who made that assumption? I’m an atheist and have been in the military since 1991 (ie milanst or military anesthesia). I was referring to conflicts like palestine v israel or somalia v ethiopia.
Stop blaming military action on religion if you’re athiests and fighting wars. It’s not the choice of religion that people follow, it’s the government.
This is not evidence. It is circumstantial at best. Irony is jews being burned at the stake by those who worship a jew.
This is evidence. I haven’t been burned to a stake so there is no reason for me not to believe in God. Events in my life unfold the way I would like them too. Sure, I have no control over the voices and actions of other forms of life, but I like it that way.
This is only evidence of a natural world, not of a god.
It’s not just the sun. It’s when the sun rises on a misserable and wet cloud covered day, on a warm winter morning after an American has died in Iraq that makes me believe in God.
Funny. I would argue that everything we know as fact points to DONALD DUCK.
No you wouldn’t, because no one has written a book about how Donald Duck created the modern world. And if they did make one, you would probally be guilible enough to buy in to.
They believe…
You can’t tell me what other people believe in, that’s just rubbish. You’re purposely being biased to prove an irrelavent point. The fact that so many Christians say they follow the word of God and end up in Jail doesn’t make you see what God truely represents?
[quote author=“JGrice02”]Indeed, people like you scare me. Not because your worldview excludes God. I wish you believed, but its not my job to convince you to believe and I can live with and respect your decision to be an atheist. I doubt you could say the same thing about theists, which is why extremist positions, such as the one you take, are dangerous.
It is true that men fear me and nice girls turn into nymphomaniacs in my presence. Today I put a plastic cockroach in the cookie jar and scared the hell out of the kids. You might be right. I will consider your observations.
What have you to fear, knowing that one day you’ll be raptured and the new Christ will slay the rest of us or throw us into a lake of eternal flame?
[quote author=“JGrice02”]I think evidence that points toward God is the first step. From that point other steps must be taken to arrive at the Christian God. I certainly don’t think the ability to reason means that the Christian God exists; simply that reason is a fact that points in the direction of God.
To argue that reason itself is what points toward god is only to credit the facility that permits one to make the argument in the first place. As has already been pointed out, the existence of god is invariably a pretext for all arguments in favor of the existence of god.
“Sure there is. Your ability to reason, however flawed it might be, is a fact that points to God’s existence.”
Reason can be cited as a fact that points to certain things . . . like . . . “evidence of ability to use a language” or “evidence that a conscious being is present” or “evidence that living beings with brains are using them” . . . but “evidence of the existence of god” well, now you’ve lost the ability to reason. In making that statement JGrice02, your obvious lack of reason only gives us ample evidence of the non-existence of god.
Flawed as your reason becomes when you “point to the existence of god” is proof of your deep delusion concerning both god and reason.
BTW, Alvin Plantina and this three book set on Warrant are about as convincing as your “facts that point to . . . ” That’s exactly the sort of NON-reasoning that Plantinga uses in his attempt to give warrant to the belief in god. I did a paper in 1994 on his epistemology and there’s a sort of “ontological argument” aspect to his warrant philosophy like pushing the “there must be a perfect being” premise into the “god must exist” conclusion . . . it’s all smoke and mirrors done with words and meanings.
