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A Word to Mr. Harris and those who hold similar views:
Posted: 03 February 2009 11:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 406 ]  
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Admittedly, I have not read every post in this thread (!), but I can say with confidence that morality doesn’t correlate with belief in God(s). There are plenty of immoral deists and moral atheists. I’m an atheist and I am a very honest person, try to be considerate, help those less fortunate, etc. On the flip side, do I really need to remind you of some very immoral things religious people have done? Do you think our prisons are chock-full of atheists?
V, you really should know better in that your arguments won’t work here. An alert child could knock them down. You’ll have to be more cogent.

Yours,
Sarah

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Posted: 01 March 2009 09:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 407 ]  
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Hilarious,

The OP claims God!=morality! Am I getting that right?  So basically, he kisses ass his whole life only so Saint Peter doesn’t tell him to get lost at the pearly gates.

Yet, millions of people who deny any god, go on living perfectly moral happy lives. 

So, OP here’s my questions - who is taking the moral high ground?  Those who are only good because of fear of retribution, or those who are good and deny existence on any retribution. 

I think you will find the answer fairly obvious.

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Posted: 01 March 2009 12:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 408 ]  
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Cody B - 01 March 2009 02:50 PM

The OP claims God!=morality!


VicM was a dull, greasy sizzle in the pan here for a while.

I don’t think he’s been back in a long time, but I’m not sure. I’m very good at ignoring utter vapidity.

Yup.

Byron

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Posted: 20 August 2009 12:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 409 ]  
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Im new to this.

I thought this site would be mostly religious criticism and philosophical
debate. Yes there is a fair share of that, but it bothers me that there is
a lot of bible quoting, arguments back and forth (John 3:16 is wrong, no its right etc. . .) How can we seriously argue over a fairytale book which belongs
on the shelf next to harry potter and batman. We don’t even know who wrote it.
In sick of all these thiests spouting thier verbal diarrhoea and centering thier entire argument based on a book written in the bronze age!

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Posted: 20 August 2009 06:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 410 ]  
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derekdub - 20 August 2009 04:27 AM

Im new to this.

I thought this site would be mostly religious criticism and philosophical
debate. Yes there is a fair share of that, but it bothers me that there is
a lot of bible quoting, arguments back and forth (John 3:16 is wrong, no its right etc. . .) How can we seriously argue over a fairytale book which belongs
on the shelf next to harry potter and batman. We don’t even know who wrote it.
In sick of all these thiests spouting thier verbal diarrhoea and centering thier entire argument based on a book written in the bronze age!

That’s my conundrum too, Derek.

But theists’ scripture is no fairy-tale to them. And unfortunately we seem to still live in a time when scripture-as-artillery is taken seriously. I could read, absorb, and critically analyze the Bible, the Koran, etc. in order to point out their contradictions to believers. No, I should not have to (and I have not), but it seems to be one of the most effective strategies to confront believers. I leave that mostly to former theists turned atheists - people like former preacher turned atheist Dan Barker, who know the Bible inside-out.

We know that the various religions’ claims of their scripture as absolute truth above all others is absolute brainwash and absolute nonsense. But I don’t know if there’s anything we can do about it. it’s made it absolutely impossible to carry on rational discussion with people like VicM.

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Posted: 20 August 2009 07:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 411 ]  
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derekdub - 20 August 2009 04:27 AM

Im new to this.

I thought this site would be mostly religious criticism and philosophical
debate. Yes there is a fair share of that, but it bothers me that there is
a lot of bible quoting, arguments back and forth (John 3:16 is wrong, no its right etc. . .) How can we seriously argue over a fairytale book which belongs
on the shelf next to harry potter and batman. We don’t even know who wrote it.
In sick of all these thiests spouting thier verbal diarrhoea and centering thier entire argument based on a book written in the bronze age!

I agree.  I don’t really care if christians want to expound on their views of christianity in the christianity forum, but I’m not interested in having a discussion on some other subject that essentially runs, “My Bible says X.”  “Well, my pet rock says Y.”

Basically, you have the choice of either ignoring them, or telling them what you think of them.

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Posted: 20 August 2009 08:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 412 ]  
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teuchter - 20 August 2009 11:41 AM

Basically, you have the choice of either ignoring them, or telling them what you think of them.

Of course, if we choose the latter, we must be ever mindful of their sensibilities, lest we give Atheists a bad name. Yeah, right!

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Posted: 31 August 2009 07:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 413 ]  
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What Vic has so obviously ignored is that according to his bible, calling someone a ‘fool’ is a sin. I guess he is casting a stone here. But then again…...they all do that.

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‘If ignorance of nature gave birth to gods, knowledge of nature destroys them’

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Posted: 31 December 2009 12:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 414 ]  
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It is almost entertaining to read VicM’s lame attempts to discredit anyone intelligent enough to not believe in god. His ideas about non-thiests seems somewhat twisted by the wrongheaded teachings he has absorbed during his time here on earth, which he has decided to devote to christ. It’s a pity he does not understand that the time he has on earth is all there is for him and he should really be trying to do something more constructive with it than blindly following the “teachings” of a man dead for 2010 years, and the writings of this dead man’s followers.

VicM, I’m sure you hope you are going to heaven when you die, and that you truly believe that us non-believers are all going to burn in hell for an eternity for our sins. I also know that nothing I, nor any other non-theists say to you is likely to change your mind about the existence of god, heaven, hell, the devil or any of the other fairy-tales in the bible.

I guess you will just have to wait until you are dead, before you “find out” that there really is no god, no heaven, no hell. It’s a crying shame that it will be too late then. So if you can take only one thing away from this site, I pray it is this:

Try to live your life for the good of All of mankind, regardless of what they believe. Do the best you can to leave the world a better place to live in than it was when you arrived. So far, as a species, Homo sapiens have not been doing a very good job of this, and we all need to start thinking more about actually leaving a world for our children to inherit and less about our petty religious and political squabbles. Think globally, Act locally.

And for human’s sake (as opposed to “for god’s sake”), don’t assume that just because someone does not believe the same things that you do that they are Evil with a capital E. Yes, there is evil in the world, and it lives within the heart and mind of man. We each need to be vigilant against the evil within our own hearts and minds. You can’t change anyone else. This is the path to morality that all religions and societies try to teach and strive for, and while I personally believe that the time for religion is behind us, and the best way forward is for us to abandon the need for it, this is not realistic. So in the absence of a magic wand that can be waved over everyone to wake us up before it’s too late, I want to leave you with a simple thought:

The world around us is dangerous and chaotic enough, without any need for humankind to make it more so.

Be kind…

Crazysailr
California, USA

[ Edited: 31 December 2009 01:05 PM by CrazySailr]
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Posted: 04 January 2010 06:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 415 ]  
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CrazySailr - 31 December 2009 05:52 PM

It is almost entertaining to read VicM’s lame attempts to discredit anyone intelligent enough to not believe in god. His ideas about non-thiests seems somewhat twisted by the wrongheaded teachings he has absorbed during his time here on earth, which he has decided to devote to christ. It’s a pity he does not understand that the time he has on earth is all there is for him and he should really be trying to do something more constructive with it than blindly following the “teachings” of a man dead for 2010 years, and the writings of this dead man’s followers.

VicM, I’m sure you hope you are going to heaven when you die, and that you truly believe that us non-believers are all going to burn in hell for an eternity for our sins. I also know that nothing I, nor any other non-theists say to you is likely to change your mind about the existence of god, heaven, hell, the devil or any of the other fairy-tales in the bible.

I guess you will just have to wait until you are dead, before you “find out” that there really is no god, no heaven, no hell. It’s a crying shame that it will be too late then. So if you can take only one thing away from this site, I pray it is this:

Try to live your life for the good of All of mankind, regardless of what they believe. Do the best you can to leave the world a better place to live in than it was when you arrived. So far, as a species, Homo sapiens have not been doing a very good job of this, and we all need to start thinking more about actually leaving a world for our children to inherit and less about our petty religious and political squabbles. Think globally, Act locally.

And for human’s sake (as opposed to “for god’s sake”), don’t assume that just because someone does not believe the same things that you do that they are Evil with a capital E. Yes, there is evil in the world, and it lives within the heart and mind of man. We each need to be vigilant against the evil within our own hearts and minds. You can’t change anyone else. This is the path to morality that all religions and societies try to teach and strive for, and while I personally believe that the time for religion is behind us, and the best way forward is for us to abandon the need for it, this is not realistic. So in the absence of a magic wand that can be waved over everyone to wake us up before it’s too late, I want to leave you with a simple thought:

The world around us is dangerous and chaotic enough, without any need for humankind to make it more so.

Be kind…

Crazysailr
California, USA

You are not so crazy, sailr….this is one of the best things I’ve read on these forums.  I am new to them, and have not seen anything by VicM before this one, but it wonders me why he would even be part of this group…unless it is to try to “save” us.

Two things worth mentioning. 

Mankind seems to have a need for “religion” from even primitive times.  Perhaps it’s a need for community or a need to have rituals for birth, marriage & death.  Those are worthy enough goals, but should (it seems to me) be accomplished without the “magic” and the dogma.  Indeed it is not possible to eradicate religion as it is practiced now, at least not in this lifetime.  The problem is that religion has not evolved as society has.  It seems to be stuck in a time period a couple thousand years ago.

The other thing, and this really bothers me, is the inculcation of children.  This is no doubt what happened to VicM, and it is why all religions want to get their stuff into the heads of the little ones.  Once it’s there, it’s very difficult to dislodge.  Many years ago I considered marrying a really nice guy who was catholic.  He didn’t practice the faith, and admitted that the dogma didn’t make much sense, but he still would have wanted our children to be raised catholic.  His feeling was “what if THEY are right?”  I didn’t marry him. 

My children were raised without religion, and are all now moral, sensible adults.  They are grateful that we did not encumber them with bizarre dogma, and that they can question without guilt and view life in a reasonable fashion.

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Posted: 08 January 2010 12:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 416 ]  
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” It’s a pity he does not understand that the time he has on earth is all there is for him and he should really be trying to do something more constructive with it than blindly following the “teachings” of a man dead for 2010 years, and the writings of this dead man’s followers.”

Arguing “faith” and the Bible serve no point.  They will believe what they believe regardless of the brutality of the tribal god the OT describes or the outrageous inconsistencies of the NT. 

A more real argument is to your point.  Agnostics and Atheist can have a real discussion over whether jesus even existed.
The ONLY evidence that would hold up in court that Jesus even existed was a single mention of a wandering Rabbi named Jesus. Nothing in that single account identifies that rabbi’s tribe or familial affiliations. Every other word written was recorded long after his supposed crucifixion (at least 60 yrs and in most cases 200-300 yrs). The greatest evidence points to a ragtime collection of word of mouth tales compiled and modified by scribes of Constantine to unite the eastern Roman Empire under the Sword of Christianity. Constantine himself never ascribed to the Christ myth and so preferred the shape of the upside down cross…a symbol of a sword to unite the empire under one religion. The reason the oldest books were not included is that THEY DIDN’T TALK OF JESUS AS DIVINE. The gnostics thought the tribal gods like the god of the Jews and the many pantheons a creation of man and that the only divinity on this plane was WITHIN THE SOUL OF HUMANS.

As to reports of “miracles” and “factual sightings”, more than 400,000 Hindus in India have reported live accounts of miracles performed by one of their native gurus. No film at 10:00, but at least firsthand accounts. Those of Jesus were all word of mouth for one hundred years before anything was written. And only the Vatican has ever seen those oldest accounts. The KJV was written from interpretations and inventions of the Vatican.

There is only one so-so piece of evidence that PONITUS PILATE existed. A plaque was found in Rome in the 1940s with that name on it. The ‘historical’ references they mention were ploys used in a political speech 400 yrs later.

Try to get any court in this nation to recognize second hand reports as admissible evidence and you’d get laughed out of that court. But christians expect humans to take those same 100 year removed from the event, word of mouth, second hand reports as irrefutable.

The world’s major religions are mutually exclusive. They are either all human constructs or only one is a direct report from the representative a divine being and the rest are human constructs. With the world’s major religions, modern and ancient, having been the basis for long lasting and successful cultures (at least until they were destroyed or fell into ruin) The gods of Greece and Rome, Sumerian, the Nordic tribes, the Celtic gods, the cults of Abraham, Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, and Pastafarianism all are human constructs that bear little resemblance to each other besides their tendency to share major celebratory dates based on astronomical cycles.

To assume that one religion is the only truth is hubris. To assume that any of them is not a human construct is irrational and illogical. I’ll give Buddhism a pass because it is irrefutable that Prince Siddhartha existed, and Buddhism is not a path of worship or forgiveness but a path of individual improvement. It creates no gods nor demands faith. But Amidha Buddhism (big boat) is just as much bunk as the rest.

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Posted: 09 January 2010 12:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 417 ]  
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Hi Goldfish. Welcome to this forum. I joined almost 3 years ago, but I’m still a “newbie” because I so rarely post anything. I do visit the site from time to time and this last time on new years eve, for some reason I saturated the site with three posts. Wow. A veritable plethora of postings from the usually taciturn crazysailr wink

Anyway, I want to say, that I appreciate your kind words. It’s funny though, because I seriously doubt that VikM – whoever he or she is will ever read it. I didn’t notice until tonight, but his original post was from July 2007, and this thread had died a quiet and I might add well deserved death until I unintentionally resurrected it.  It’s OK, because I was not trying to engage him in a debate. I was really just killing some time before our company arrived to help us ring in the new year. I enjoy writing and every once in a while I even do a little.

Smart move on your part – not to marry the catholic gentleman, I mean. I am really glad to hear that you think there are a few more moral and sensible adults in the world due to your decision.

I want to tell you that I was perhaps not as wise as you were in the choice of a mate. I married a wonderful woman who happens to have been raised in the Jewish tradition - as was I. She insisted on raising our 2 children in the Jewish faith, despite not believing in god in the sense of an omnipotent creator. She like many others, I suspect, thinks of god as some kind of communal “spirit” that lives in all people. Don’t ask me. I have tried to reason with her on many occasions, to absolutely no avail. It usually ends in one or the other, or both of us feeling badly. I suppose you could say, a microcosm of the central debate that this and other sites like it sometimes see devolve into something less than civil discourse between those who have faith in god and those who do not..

This has been one of the central points of tension in our marriage of more than 21 years. While I was raised a Jew, I realized that god was a myth when I was perhaps 8 or 9 years old, and I have never placed any stock in the traditions, teaching and dogma of my ancestral religion.

Some would say this make me a terrible hypocrite – to belong to a religious congregation, and to allow my children to also, when I don’t believe in the central tenants of that religion. In my defense, I can only say, “love bites”. I love my wife dearly, and it was very important to her to have our children experience the “wonderful sense of community and accomplishment” that she felt they would get from growing up Jewish. So 18 years ago, I acquiesced against my better judgment.  I have done my best to counter the teachings about god and the absurd mythology that kids are indoctrinated with during a reformed Jewish upbringing by telling them plainly when they were young that I believed that most of what they would be told during Sunday school were fairy tales, and by explaining to them what I believe in, at every opportunity as they grew older.

The good news is that in my opinion, my two “kids” are independent thinkers who now understand that what they were taught in religious school is mostly rubbish. I have subverted their religious education at every opportunity, but this has come at a cost to both of them and my self – not to mention my relation ship with my wife. I don’t want to bore you with too much information on what I mean by this. Suffice it to say that it can often get tense for everyone in a household where the parents both love the kids without reservation, but can’t agree with each other on something as central to family life as what do we teach our kids about this world and god.

My sincere hope for them is that they are able find their way and fall in love with people who were raised without god. I’m OK with whomever they fall in love with though, as long as they stay in love. They are both smart people and I trust them.

I do sometimes wonder how many years of therapy they will need to get out from under my wife’s and my influence, though wink

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Posted: 20 January 2011 07:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 418 ]  
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I am so tired of having to navigate around you people to get to an island of reason and the coming together of a world view. Don’t you get it?? Your beliefs are equally as bizarre as Osamas. Since you are prone to weirdness, its a mere matter of geography that you aren’t muslim, or Fang, or any other cooky explanation of happenings that go on daily. The stinging ignorance is just inexcusiable. We are at war with faith. We are at war with Islam, and the people who don’t realize they are guilty of the same things are equally guilty and will probably find the same bombs dropping on them one day. You’re a problem. You’re a roach. We will have to deal with you one day, I garuntee it. Wake up people. Your trying to accomplish the same things that keep you out of the nuclear world. If you are irrational, no nukes. What makes you irrational, belief without evidence. If I may quote Fred Sanford, “you big dummy.”

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Posted: 09 January 2012 12:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 419 ]  
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To the original poster, I would like to say:


“Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”

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Posted: 30 January 2012 08:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 420 ]  
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Not in Buddhism, not in Islam, not in Taoism, not in Judaism, not in Christianity, not in Hinduism, not in Native Wisdom did you ever hear the rule “Don’t have sex with mean people.”.  This rule has more to do with human suffering than any rule.  Don’t you find it a little odd that cultures didn’t emerge with it if there truly was an ethical God that has been inspiring us since the beginning?

[ Edited: 30 January 2012 09:04 AM by 0username0]
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