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A Word to Mr. Harris and those who hold similar views:
Posted: 19 July 2007 01:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 46 ]  
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g.wood

Can you please re-post the question? I’ll be glad to answer it.

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Posted: 19 July 2007 02:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 47 ]  
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[quote author=“VicM”]g.wood

Can you please re-post the question? I’ll be glad to answer it.

Post on page 4 pasted below. There’s a bonus question at the end.

Vic,

What were you like before you found God? Alcoholic, drug addict, sex sleaze, criminal, or what? I find that most people who are all pumped up on God are running from bad habits they couldn’t control by simply being moral and strong. [edit: this last sentence is sort of a parody of your statement about atheists being goat-fuckers :wink:, or whatever you said. But I find it to be generally true of my experience with born-agains.]

Believe it or not, a few of my friends and a bunch of my relatives are real big on Jesus, have been for decades. They all have a “past.” [edit: You replied to this, ignored the preceeding.] They like me even though they know I’m an atheist. Go figure.

This will never be resolved, because Vic thinks that believing is a prerequisite for being moral; no matter what else one is, non-believing in itself makes one immoral. Right?

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Posted: 19 July 2007 02:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 48 ]  
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g.wood

What was I like? Well, I can’t say that I was ever involved in any of the gross sins you mention. But, I would lie from time to time, had pre-marital relations with women, used foul language, hated people or wished them evil in my heart, etc.

As to your second question, you are correct. Because, as I have argued before, morality originates with God. As the author, He defines it.

Now the list I mentioned above (which I’m sure you’re guilty of some also), are things which God (the author of morality) disapproves of. And He has declared that the only way to expunge these sins, is through faith in His Son, whom He sent. Consequently, since atheists don’t believe in God, let alone His Son, their sins are not forgiven, therefore, they are immoral people by default. Savvy?

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Posted: 19 July 2007 02:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 49 ]  
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Great, thanks. That’s a ho-hum list of sins, are you sure you’re not leaving anything out? Do you really regret that pre-marital sex? Come on now, it was wonderful, wasn’t it?

I think just about all of your confessions are experiences shared by many, many people, and well within the scope of typical human behavior.  But that’s because I’m an immoral atheist.  8)

That’s all for tonight, later alligator.

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Posted: 19 July 2007 02:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 50 ]  
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Ma’amooth

What is your point? If you have none, find one.

The point is for you to figure it out, no one grows out of a level of spiritual development by some one else experience. You still stuck in the book as the only true word of god, nobody is going to convince you of the contrary or differents options but yourself when the time comes and you are ready for it.

Anything that we write in here is to help each other to understand better our positions in this journey call Spiritual development, maybe these quotes from Albert Einsten will help you
“A man’s ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.”
“Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds”
“I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the actions of individuals, or would directly sit in judgment on creatures of his own creation. I cannot do this in spite of the fact that mechanistic causality has, to a certain extent, been placed in doubt by modern science. [He was speaking of Quantum Mechanics and the breaking down of determinism.] My religiosity consists in a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we, with our weak and transitory understanding, can comprehend of reality. Morality is of the highest importance—but for us, not for God. “

Most likely you will not see the point. Its not a point is concept in the level of spiritual development

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“Life is the COEXISTENCE of opposites values”
Love is Forgiveness
Peace is Tolerance
“In the beginning Man created God according to his own image and understanding. Over the years as Men understanding of morality, violence and tolerance evolves, so evolves our understanding of a Loving God”.

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Posted: 19 July 2007 03:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 51 ]  
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[quote author=“VicM”]Happy,

Man has always held, since the beginning of time, the belief that there is a god or gods.

Wow, since the beginning of time! But this fits right in with your other unsubstantiated declaration of non-truth.

As men, in their arrogance, thought themselves ‘enlightened’ by their so-called science. So it does fall on those who came later, to prove to the overwhelming majority, that God does not exist.

Arrogance? Not only do you disdain science, but I have the sense that you disdain intelligence altogether. Unless, of course, it’s the slave trying to interpret the master’s demands. What pathetic words. How sad. You should have been born 2,000 years ago.

And I don’t know about other religions, but I can tell you that Christianity does not conflict, in any way, with reality.

rolleyes

I think you see it that way because of your perception of reality.

I’ll take my reality over yours hands down. I’m imagining what it’s like to be you, and I feel dirty.

I also agree that Christianity has no roll in the governments of this world. Christianity is concerned with the advancement of the Kingdom of God, not of men. So I guess we do agree on something.

I didn’t say Christianity has no role in the governments of this world. Religion has all too big a role in the States. Its poison corrupts and harms.

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Posted: 19 July 2007 07:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 52 ]  
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[quote author=“VicM”]
Prove that there is no God. And don’t give me your psycho-babble baloney like your jaguar story.

http://www.truthdig.com/dig/item/200512_an_atheist_manifesto/

(Sam Harris lecture)

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“It is time we recognized the boundless narcissism and self-deceit of the saved.” - Sam Harris

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Posted: 19 July 2007 11:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 53 ]  
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[quote author=“mammooth”] spiritual development… this journey call Spiritual development….in the level of spiritual development

I’ve always had a problem with that word, particularly that term. What’s a spirit, anyway? A disembodied consciousness. Used metaphorically, it still alludes to that same thing. It seems to me a misleading blanket term that refers to intellectual, emotional or social status, but it implies a connection with an invisible realm, the so-called spirit world. I prefer to discuss this world and its experiences in terms that more accurately describe those experiences. But if you believe in spirits, I guess that’s another thing entirely.

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Posted: 20 July 2007 06:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 54 ]  
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VicM wrote:

One thing I have learned about those who deny the existence of God is that they are usually people who are involved in gross immorality (ie pedophilia, homosexuality, adultery, bestiallity, etc.) and they don’t like the fact that there is One to whom they will answer to.

How then do you explain plain old atheists like myself who are heterosexual,  married to one guy for 13 years now, never had an extramarital affair, mother to three healthy children whom I’ve never sexually abused, owner to two cats and one big Newfie-Lab mix dog also in good health with which I’ve never had sexual relations?  I’ve never killed or maimed anyone either (although I have plotted my husband’s demise several times ...)

I would be considered by most standard’s a basically moral person although I wouldn’t pretend to have never hurt anyone, mainly unintentional, unless you’re taking into account the few times on the ice where I’ve tried to board someone just for the fun of it.  (Too bad I don’t skate fast enough to catch anybody yet.)

Once you’re done explaining how regular ol’ me can, generally on a daily basis even, make seemingly moral decisions without the guidance of God, you can try explaining how many of those who actually believe in God manage to carry out the most hideous of crimes against children and people of other faiths and cultures. 

Belief in God has nothing to do with morality and much to do with immorality.  As Joad explained here in an earlier post, “Religion is like cancer.  Without cancer, the body functions normally.  Without religion, morality functions normally.” (Probably not quite word for word, but close enough).

The way I see it, religion and belief in God is what works against morality providing false reasons to hate/pity/reject another group of people.  The fact that you lump homosexuality in with pedophilia and bestiality is proof enough of the power of your religion to corrupt morality.  You’ve been brainwashed to believe that consensual sex between two same-sex adults is on the same level as destroying the innocence of children and animals.  You have learned some pretty warped views there and they are FAR from moral.

Hope you think your way out of your moral mess one day ...

Susan

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Posted: 20 July 2007 06:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 55 ]  
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[quote author=“VicM”]
Prove that there is no God.

I already did that in one thread or another, but here it is again, expanded.

God is defined as a supernatural being.
Supernatural means outside of nature.
Nature is everything that exists. Everything. Everywhere.
Because nature is everything, nothing exists that is not a part of nature, ergo, God does not exist.

If there is some being, energy, force, matter, wave or other detectable phenomena that meets any given person’s qualifications for being God, then this thing is a part of nature, therefore not supernatural, not God.

That ain’t psychobabble.

OK, now prove God exists. And please describe God, as you would describe, say, a person, an elephant, or a wildflower. Thank you.

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Posted: 21 July 2007 06:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 56 ]  
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After mammooth’s posting of the intriguing conversation between god and VicM, Vic said something to the effect, “What’s your point?  If you have none then find one.”

I thought the point, so to speak, was perfectly clear from the dialogue.  And here’s my understanding of it.  There are perhaps two sources for morality 1) the god of christianity is the author, or 2) human beings in their social relations with one another create it.  How do we know which is the true source?  Naturally, we must appeal to Common Sense.

So what does Common Sense reveal about the opening quote from VicM?  If the christian god is the author, then VicM makes a categorically moral statement because he is a believer and a follower of that god.

THE STATEMENT
  ” One thing I have learned about those who deny the existence of God is that they are usually people who are involved in gross immorality (ie pedophilia, homosexuality, adultery, bestiallity, etc.) and they don’t like the fact that there is One to whom they will answer to.”

Yet under the scrutiny of Common Sense, the above statement shows itself to be completely immoral.  FIrst of all VicM is accusing most atheists of being innately immoral by erroneously proclaiming that they act unethically.  Yet what are those acts (sins)  that these atheists partake of without guilt?  Fairly well any and all of those sexual actions that stray from the monogamus, heterosexual variety.  And how does VicM conclude that these sexual “sins” are sinful - presumably he takes his direction from the bible, and thus from the christian god.

Yet Common Sense and the best science tell us that homosexuality is a natural human condition, how could it be immoral?  Common Sense also tells us that monogamy is not a natural human condition, but one that is indoctrinated by culture and religion.  So, to categorically claim that homosexuality and adultery are immoral, puts the claimant into turbulent ethical waters.  (The other two sex-related sins seem by Common Sense alone to be depraved and I would not venture to try and depict either of them as somehow morally neutral.)

But aside from this flimsy evidence (the bible tells me so) that all of these sexual actions are immoral, VicM has gone the extra immoral mile by accusing atheists in general of being immoral creatures.  If Common Sense is to prevail, then surely such bigoted, accusatory claims as made by VicM expose his own depraved lack of human understanding, as well as a complete lack of empathy, sympathy, compassion, and all those other positive human traits that social beings must possess. IN fact it is these same human characteristics that are the foundation of human morality (do not do unto others as you would not want done to yourself - Confucius).

So in the final analysis, it seems evident to a Common Sense evaluation that christian ethics (at least the variety espoused by VicM) is in itself an immoral practice.  If god condones such outright bigotry and demands such categorical obedience, then there truly is no moral value in the christian faith (in spite of the flickers of Golden Rule sparkle here and there in the huge pile of shit known as biblical reference and christian superiority).

Bob

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It’s definitely a moon! . . . and now it’s become a sunflower!

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Posted: 21 July 2007 08:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 57 ]  
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[quote author=“g.wood”]I prefer to discuss this world and its experiences in terms that more accurately describe those experiences.

Point well taken exchange for morality or moral development

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“Life is the COEXISTENCE of opposites values”
Love is Forgiveness
Peace is Tolerance
“In the beginning Man created God according to his own image and understanding. Over the years as Men understanding of morality, violence and tolerance evolves, so evolves our understanding of a Loving God”.

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Posted: 23 July 2007 08:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 58 ]  
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I’ve read all of your posts. And I must say that you all have made my point: Atheists are immoral people.


The fact that none of you have problems with homosexuality, even though you may not practice the same, reveals your immorality. You are all blind.


And, mamooth, what is your point in quoting Einstein? That he “discovered” the atom does not make him an expert on God. Besides, he’s was an avowed atheist so his comments come as no surprise. But I guess, if you need something to hold onto your sham belief, because it makes you feel validated, be my guest.

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Posted: 23 July 2007 09:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 59 ]  
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[quote author=“VicM”]The fact that none of you have problems with homosexuality, even though you may not practice the same, reveals your immorality. You are all blind.

Your fixation on homosexuality interesting, VicM.  Are you in the closet due to your faith?

I’m almost a gay man myself.  Well, I’m a straight woman but that’s pretty close to being a gay man, in a lot of ways.

But I guess, if you need something to hold onto your sham belief, because it makes you feel validated, be my guest.

The irony of this statement cannot get lost in your post.

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Posted: 23 July 2007 10:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 60 ]  
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[quote author=“VicM”]I’ve read all of your posts. And I must say that you all have made my point: Atheists are immoral people.


The fact that none of you have problems with homosexuality, even though you may not practice the same, reveals your immorality. You are all blind.


And, mamooth, what is your point in quoting Einstein? That he “discovered” the atom does not make him an expert on God. Besides, he’s was an avowed atheist so his comments come as no surprise. But I guess, if you need something to hold onto your sham belief, because it makes you feel validated, be my guest.

We wait for some intelligent explanations for your beliefs, and you’ve failed to provide them, while continuing to demonstrate an astounding sense of closed-mindedness.  You win a free trip to join Fred Phelps and his Westboro Baptist Church family. Visit them at godhatesfags.com. I’m sure you’ll feel right at home in their sick and self-righteous little world.

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