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The bottom line
Posted: 19 July 2007 06:08 AM   [ Ignore ]  
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The bottom line is that people become atheists, not because there is no proof that God exists (the proof is all around) but, because they can't stand the notion that they have to be accountable to someone, given the lifestyle choices they have made. In short as I've stated before, atheists love their sin.

They further compound this problem by hiding behind "reason." Reason has nothing to do with atheism. Reason and atheism are antithetical. When atheists claim to be reasonable people, they are lying.

Tell me what is "reasonable" about sitting in judgement of God? None of you people have been around forever, not even your foolish scientists who affirm, dogmatically, by the way, that the Earth is x billions of years old. However, whether you like it or not, whether you believe it or not, God has. And He has given testimony of His actions. Nature is proof of this testimony.

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Posted: 17 August 2007 06:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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Who are you trying to convince Vic?  The atheists or yourself?  Clearly you need your faith to keep you from doing evil as your words ooze with fear.  I don’t cheat on my wife because I love her and doing so would hurt myself.  You (presumably) don’t cheat because of fear of punishment.  That’s not morality, it’s called cowardice. 

Why the hostility?  If you were truly concerned with saving souls and helping others see the light then you wouldn’t purposefully antagonize with juvenile statements such as “atheists love their sin”.  Obviously you are trying to bait us into name-calling so that you can feel justified in your unjustifiable beliefs. 

“The bottom line” is actually that most atheists understand how precious and spectacular life is.  Most of us are kind and generous not because of the promise of an afterlife but because we have searched long and hard for understanding and truth and developed our morals accordingly.

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Posted: 17 August 2007 08:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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[quote author=“Johnny Sweatpants”]Who are you trying to convince Vic?  The atheists or yourself?  Clearly you need your faith to keep you from doing evil as your words ooze with fear.  I don’t cheat on my wife because I love her and doing so would hurt myself.  You (presumably) don’t cheat because of fear of punishment.  That’s not morality, it’s called cowardice. 

Why the hostility?  If you were truly concerned with saving souls and helping others see the light then you wouldn’t purposefully antagonize with juvenile statements such as “atheists love their sin”.  Obviously you are trying to bait us into name-calling so that you can feel justified in your unjustifiable beliefs. 

“The bottom line” is actually that most atheists understand how precious and spectacular life is.  Most of us are kind and generous not because of the promise of an afterlife but because we have searched long and hard for understanding and truth and developed our morals accordingly.

Johnny, do you really reckon all these christians act out of fear? Well, I guess some of them do, the ones that aren’t as morally aware as some others.  But others claim that morality came from God, which is why they act according to their Bible teachings. They say God gave them morals and moral guides because their God knows what’s best for ‘em.

And do you truly feel the urge to ‘name-call’ as you seem to imply? I don’t see the obviousness - I’d just not be annoyed.

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Posted: 17 August 2007 08:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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I don’t think Johnny implied he feels the urge to name-call. He cleverly pointed out Vic’s transparent motives to bait us into name-calling, which, based on Vic’s prior posts, seems to be an astute observation, seeing as he name-calls quite frequently, and with huge sweeping generalization.

Johnny (or Mr. Sweatpants), your first post here makes me happy. Welcome!

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“The hands that help are better far than the lips that pray.”
          — Robert G. Ingersoll

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Posted: 17 August 2007 08:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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[quote author=“HappyHeathen”]I don’t think Johnny implied he feels the urge to name-call. He cleverly pointed out Vic’s transparent motives to bait us into name-calling, which, based on Vic’s prior posts, seems to be an astute observation, seeing as he name-calls quite frequently, and with huge sweeping generalization.

Johnny (or Mr. Sweatpants), your first post here makes me happy. Welcome!

Good for Johnny then! Woooo…but wait a minute, isn’t it true that atheists do a lot of name-calling anyway, not just vic? Look around the forum! raspberry
As for sweeping generalizations, don’t we all love doing that and accusing the other party of the same fault we ourselves indulge in….

Well, nice to see you both on this forum anyway, Johnny and Happy.

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Posted: 17 August 2007 08:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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[quote author=“Q.A”]...but wait a minute, isn’t it true that atheists do a lot of name-calling anyway, not just vic? Look around the forum!

People do a lot of name-calling - Vic, atheists, believers…

Look around the forum?  Look around the internet.  There’s not as much name-calling here and there could be.  This forum concerns itself with a very contentious issue and there’s a lot of baiting going on.  The fact that it doesn’t dissolve into vicious name-calling more often surprises me more than when it does.

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Posted: 17 August 2007 08:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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[quote author=“Q.A”][quote author=“HappyHeathen”]I don’t think Johnny implied he feels the urge to name-call. He cleverly pointed out Vic’s transparent motives to bait us into name-calling, which, based on Vic’s prior posts, seems to be an astute observation, seeing as he name-calls quite frequently, and with huge sweeping generalization.

Johnny (or Mr. Sweatpants), your first post here makes me happy. Welcome!

Good for Johnny then! Woooo…but wait a minute, isn’t it true that atheists do a lot of name-calling anyway, not just vic? Look around the forum! raspberry

All of our tempers flare, it’s true, and sometimes name-calling, sarcasm and ridicule result. Sometimes they result without flared tempers. It’s interesting to me, however, that you seem to be implying, perhaps hoping for, Johnny’s need to name-call in this particular instance, where no need seems to exist at all.

As for sweeping generalizations, don’t we all love doing that and accusing the other party of the same fault we ourselves indulge in….

I don’t think we all love doing that, and I think we hold ourselves accountable when we spot it.

Well, nice to see you both on this forum anyway, Johnny and Happy.

Thanks.

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Posted: 17 August 2007 08:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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Oh thanks.  I probably should have introduced myself.  Where are my manners?  Long time reader, first time poster.  I’ve enjoyed many of the astute observations made on this forum for a while now.

Regarding QA’s question, I certainly don’t think that the majority of the faithful act out of fear.  I think though, that by attributing morals to a higher power, they’re not giving themselves (or the human brain) enough credit.  But then there are those, like this Vic character who are apparently so weak-minded that they cannot even entertain the idea that people can be moral without god.  So he tries to prove to himself that atheists are morally bankrupt by luring them to the gutter. 

And it wasn’t this particular post that fired me up, it was a laundry list of ludicrous and ignorant (and admittedly entertaining) statements that he has made here.

And don’t get me wrong.  I’m certainly not above childish name-calling by any means…

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Posted: 17 August 2007 02:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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[quote author=“VicM”] Nature is proof of this testimony.

The bottom line aaHaaah
Here it is
In on corner Theists “Atheists are full of s***”
In the other Atheists “Theists are full of S***”

Now if you are an theist believer in a “personal God” Created by what you think God should be, then how many of this Personal God do we have; one for the Jews, one for the Christians, one for the Muslims, one who revealed himself to VicM, one who reveal himself to Bruce Burleson one who reveal himself to frankr and other which are no longer here like Jim Jones, of Jonestown in Guyana or the new Jesuscrist “el boricua Jose Luis de Jesus Miranda” currently capturing followers thru Latinamerica and Pto Rico, or many other tele-evangelist which follow in this category.

But you Mr. or Mrs. VicM already venture into “Nature is proof of this testimony.” I like it, that’s cool, please take your time and read about Benedetto de Spinoza, and Albert Einstein definition of God.

You can’t make judgments of atheists because You haven’t been there, and there is a lot of atheist or Pantheists like myself that have been where you are firm believers for many years and some of us after confronting ourselves with our cognitive dissonance, begin to grow into the new paradigm of Pantheism or Atheism, where the concept of a Personal God is really part of Mythology.

Pantheism is a good alternative to some of us which are not willing to give up the existence of A GOD, but certainly gives you a better understanding and respect for those call themselves atheist. They definitely have more respect of humanity and morality than any religion.

“Morality is doing what is right no matter what you are told”
“Religion is doing what you are told no matter what is right”

[quote author=“St.Ignatius Loyola”]“We should always be disposed to believe that, that which appears to us to be white is really black, if the hierarchy of the Church so decides”

I was tempted to follow El Jefecito instructions but maybe there is some HOPE for you VicM.

By the way the bottom lines is “How can we all survive with so many different beliefs systems” This is not a game of football or soccer where my team has to win Christianity 3 Islam 2 Judaism 1 Atheism 0 all other teams are not eligible for the final match.
This is about survival of the human race, how can we coexist, we already have 6000 or more years of confrontation and no results other than more violence against each other.

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“Life is the COEXISTENCE of opposites values”
Love is Forgiveness
Peace is Tolerance
“In the beginning Man created God according to his own image and understanding. Over the years as Men understanding of morality, violence and tolerance evolves, so evolves our understanding of a Loving God”.

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Posted: 17 August 2007 02:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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[quote author=“mammooth”]
But you Mr. or Mrs. VicM. . . .

I think Vic prefers Miss.

As in he will intentionally miss your well-thought-out argument. He’s a preacher of the street corner variety, after all.

Isn’t that right, Miss Vic?

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“The hands that help are better far than the lips that pray.”
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Posted: 17 August 2007 02:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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Hey, Mr. Sweatpants : ), I offer another welcome.

But I must know: What is a KISStorian? The chronicling of all things Gene Simmons, perhaps?

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Posted: 17 August 2007 02:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
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[quote author=“Mia”]Hey, Mr. Sweatpants : ), I offer another welcome.

But I must know: What is a KISStorian? The chronicling of all things Gene Simmons, perhaps?

Hey, maybe Johnny knows all about
http://www.fresnobeehive.com/archives/upload/2007/03/KISS—-Gene-Simmons—C11751295.jpeg
Oh, you said that, didn’t you! Well, I just wanted a chance to post another image, somewhat Satanic at that!

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“The hands that help are better far than the lips that pray.”
          — Robert G. Ingersoll

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Posted: 17 August 2007 06:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
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[quote author=“mammooth”]
“Morality is doing what is right no matter what you are told”
“Religion is doing what you are told no matter what is right”

[quote author=“St.Ignatius Loyola”]“We should always be disposed to believe that, that which appears to us to be white is really black, if the hierarchy of the Church so decides”

So that’s where George Orwell got his “If the party says that 2 + 2 = 5 you must not only say, but know that is true.”  (Or something along that line.)

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Posted: 18 August 2007 05:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]  
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[quote author=“HappyHeathen”]Gene Simmons, perhaps?

That guy is one of the most pompous, in love with himself, insulting, and oh-so-clever overblown nothings ever. And his music is infantile garbage, too. No wonder he’s so successful.

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Posted: 18 August 2007 06:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]  
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[quote author=“g.wood”][quote author=“HappyHeathen”]Gene Simmons, perhaps?

That guy is one of the most pompous, in love with himself, insulting, and oh-so-clever overblown nothings ever. And his music is infantile garbage, too. No wonder he’s so successful.

Up until the music part, I though you might be describing the god of the Bible.

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Posted: 19 August 2007 03:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]  
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You got me.  I might as well get this out of the way now before it comes back to bite me.  I think that KISS is just great and that the Elder is an underrated masterpiece.  And yes, I have a Gene Simmons rubber ducky that I cherish along with a slew of other pointless KISS products. 

I will freely admit that Gene is a greedy, narcissistic, sexist, pigheaded jackass with little to no talent.  However, being a KISS fan my whole life has been a hilariously rewarding experience and I will continue to throw my hard-earned money at them regardless of how low they stoop. 

But I don’t get my values from them.  I don’t judge others on whether or not they own Love Gun or even Lick it Up.  And I don’t tell non-believers that they’ll be tortured for eternity if they don’t accept KISS as “the Hottest Band in the Land”!

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