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A youtube video for moral relativists
Posted: 06 March 2009 10:48 AM   [ Ignore ]  
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zd9JpVxiz9E

[ Edited: 06 March 2009 12:19 PM by Argo]
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Posted: 08 March 2009 03:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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And your point is? That people doing stupid and terrible things is proof of objective morality?

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Posted: 08 March 2009 08:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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I would say that amounts to proof.  If we agree to the obvious: that it is terrible.

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What do I care for a hell for oppressors? What good can hell do, since those children have already been tortured? And what becomes of harmony, if there is hell? I want to forgive. I want to embrace. I don’t want more suffering. And if the sufferings of children go to swell the sum of sufferings which was necessary to pay for truth, then I protest that the truth is not worth such a price.
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Posted: 09 March 2009 08:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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waltercat - 09 March 2009 12:01 AM

I would say that amounts to proof.  If we agree to the obvious: that it is terrible.

Yes, well, I would say someone should go and tell all the tribal peoples of the world that we met on the SH site and decided that they were evil and immoral, but the Christians having been that for 2000 years, guess they missed a few…........

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Posted: 09 March 2009 09:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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The fact (if it is one) that Moral relativism is true does not imply that we should not intervene as you describe.  Nor does the fact that Moral Relativism is false imply that we should intervene.

We can agree that it would be counter-productive, unhelpful, unfeasible, etc. to tell the tribal people that they are doing something terrible (or immoral) without having to say that what they are doing is not terrible.

It is one thing to come to accurate and appropriate moral conclusions; quite another to believe that you ought to convince others that your own moral judgments are true.

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What do I care for a hell for oppressors? What good can hell do, since those children have already been tortured? And what becomes of harmony, if there is hell? I want to forgive. I want to embrace. I don’t want more suffering. And if the sufferings of children go to swell the sum of sufferings which was necessary to pay for truth, then I protest that the truth is not worth such a price.
-Ivan Karamazov

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Posted: 10 March 2009 08:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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This documentary is at the center of a fair controversy.  While it’s obviously a re-enactment, there is a lot of information that it’s not a true representation of Amazonian tribal culture.  The link below leads to a PDF (not cut-and-paste available, sorry) interview that gives some details.  The long and short of it is, this is a film (Hakani) that has been created by a person known to be a historical revisionist named David Cunningham who is—surprise surprise—the son of a Christian evangelical.

When talking about moral relativism, it seems we should always include the moral relativism of Christians who have little compunction about lying to spread their mythology.

Hakani Fake Link

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Posted: 10 March 2009 08:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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Ah sweet. argo is trying to prove that moral absolutism is better than moral relativism because barbaric people committ infanticide.

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Posted: 10 March 2009 09:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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McCreason - 10 March 2009 12:45 PM

Ah sweet. argo is trying to prove that moral absolutism is better than moral relativism because barbaric people committ infanticide.

First he’d have to prove there is moral absolutism and where is comes from…....

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Posted: 10 March 2009 10:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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Keep The Reason - 10 March 2009 12:15 PM

This documentary is at the center of a fair controversy.  While it’s obviously a re-enactment, there is a lot of information that it’s not a true representation of Amazonian tribal culture.  The link below leads to a PDF (not cut-and-paste available, sorry) interview that gives some details.  The long and short of it is, this is a film (Hakani) that has been created by a person known to be a historical revisionist named David Cunningham who is—surprise surprise—the son of a Christian evangelical.

When talking about moral relativism, it seems we should always include the moral relativism of Christians who have little compunction about lying to spread their mythology.

Hakani Fake Link

I was wondering about that but didn’t have time to do any research on the film. Thanks for looking that up and and posting it.

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Why is there Something instead of Nothing: No reason or ever knowable reason.

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Posted: 25 March 2009 12:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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Hmm, I had no idea the video was a fake. Thank you for pointing that out. I wasn’t trying to prove anything but I was trying to provoke a conversation about moral relativism and was attempting to exhibit the video. Being that it is a hoax, I guess I have nothing to do but apologize for my credulity.

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Posted: 25 March 2009 07:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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Jefe - 25 March 2009 10:55 AM
Argo - 25 March 2009 04:51 AM

Hmm, I had no idea the video was a fake. Thank you for pointing that out. I wasn’t trying to prove anything but I was trying to provoke a conversation about moral relativism and was attempting to exhibit the video. Being that it is a hoax, I guess I have nothing to do but apologize for my credulity.

Ok.  Lets talk about moral relativism.

Can you think of a specific moral or ethic that is not relative in some way?

I must agree with Jefe. Nearly every action is relative to the culture and context in which it is committed. That is why judges have leeway in meting out punishment.

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Posted: 25 March 2009 08:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
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Even though it is a fake, we can easily imagine that things like this (or worse) have happened.  So let’s start with the assumption that at some point in the past a small child was needlessly killed.

So, the question now is, Is it wrong to kill children?  It seems to me that it is.  And right now I can’t think of why we might think that this is a relative truth.  Can anyone help me?

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What do I care for a hell for oppressors? What good can hell do, since those children have already been tortured? And what becomes of harmony, if there is hell? I want to forgive. I want to embrace. I don’t want more suffering. And if the sufferings of children go to swell the sum of sufferings which was necessary to pay for truth, then I protest that the truth is not worth such a price.
-Ivan Karamazov

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Posted: 25 March 2009 08:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
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waltercat - 25 March 2009 12:02 PM

Even though it is a fake, we can easily imagine that things like this (or worse) have happened.  So let’s start with the assumption that at some point in the past a small child was needlessly killed.

So, the question now is, Is it wrong to kill children?  It seems to me that it is.  And right now I can’t think of why we might think that this is a relative truth.  Can anyone help me?

How we feel about it is subjective i.e. relative not objective.

[ Edited: 25 March 2009 08:15 AM by GAD]
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Posted: 25 March 2009 08:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]  
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GAD - 25 March 2009 12:08 PM
waltercat - 25 March 2009 12:02 PM

Even though it is a fake, we can easily imagine that things like this (or worse) have happened.  So let’s start with the assumption that at some point in the past a small child was needlessly killed.

So, the question now is, Is it wrong to kill children?  It seems to me that it is.  And right now I can’t think of why we might think that this is a relative truth.  Can anyone help me?

How we about it is subjective i.e. relative not objective.

Hmm.  But it doesn’t seem subjective. Why do you think that it is subjective rather than objective?

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What do I care for a hell for oppressors? What good can hell do, since those children have already been tortured? And what becomes of harmony, if there is hell? I want to forgive. I want to embrace. I don’t want more suffering. And if the sufferings of children go to swell the sum of sufferings which was necessary to pay for truth, then I protest that the truth is not worth such a price.
-Ivan Karamazov

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Posted: 25 March 2009 08:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]  
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waltercat - 25 March 2009 12:10 PM
GAD - 25 March 2009 12:08 PM
waltercat - 25 March 2009 12:02 PM

Even though it is a fake, we can easily imagine that things like this (or worse) have happened.  So let’s start with the assumption that at some point in the past a small child was needlessly killed.

So, the question now is, Is it wrong to kill children?  It seems to me that it is.  And right now I can’t think of why we might think that this is a relative truth.  Can anyone help me?

How we about it is subjective i.e. relative not objective.

Hmm.  But it doesn’t seem subjective. Why do you think that it is subjective rather than objective?

Because it’s a feeling, and feelings are subjective. Unless you think killing children is only done by societies/individuals who believe it’s wrong but do it anyway.

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Why is there Something instead of Nothing: No reason or ever knowable reason.

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Posted: 25 March 2009 08:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]  
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Judging by some of the adult behavior throughout human history, there were many children that should have been killed.

I know, thats a little bizaar and for a thought I guess but…

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