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How is Christ the fulfillment of the law?
Posted: 10 December 2010 02:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]  
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eddie - 10 December 2010 01:46 AM

Andrew

That has been my experience.

(Andrew):  That atheists don’t quote scripture?  I just did.  So now you have a new experience.

eddie - 10 December 2010 01:46 AM

It reeks of ‘being preached at’ which atheists hate [That’s WHY they are atheists, according to what they say themselves.

(Andrew):  I don’t know who you’ve been talking to, but what makes me an atheist is my lack of belief in the existence of God.  That’s all it is.
Btw—this has nothing to do with how (or if) Jesus fulfilled the Law, while the scripture I quoted does.  Rather than attack a group of people about which you seem to know very little, why not try to hop back on topic?
Thanks.

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Posted: 10 December 2010 03:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]  
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andrew

1.I didnt say that they [subject]dont quote scripture - I said that they dont like being “Quoted AT” [accusative case]  You didnt read it properly.

2.Which quote/where is the one to which you refer? I can’t see any.

3.I know heaps about atheists - from being their entertainment of the moment, on various occasions and various blogs. The international one, project-reason [the latest] and others less well known. I have had the same treatment on each.  If I had to choose between being in a cage with an atheist, a lion, a shark or a creationist christian, I would choose the last. The same goes re my grand-children’s education.  If I had to choose between nutty creationist theory on the one hand, and an atheist with the [correct] view [i.e.evolution,] on the other, I would choose the Christian.  Because atheists 99.5% are toxic, whether they have a Jewish OR christian back-ground. [You might be the 0.5% that proves the rule, of course. I hope so. I like lovely surprises.]

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Posted: 11 December 2010 03:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]  
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eddie - 10 December 2010 08:55 PM

andrew

1.I didnt say that they [subject]dont quote scripture - I said that they dont like being “Quoted AT” [accusative case]  You didnt read it properly.

(Andrew):  I was going on your assertion a few posts back to the effect that atheists are allergic to scripture quotes and ignore them.  I’m an atheist and I don’t ignore quotes from scripture.  I use them.

eddie - 10 December 2010 08:55 PM

2.Which quote/where is the one to which you refer? I can’t see any.

(Andrew):  Several posts ago, I linked to a previous thread in which this subject (does Jesus “fulfill the law”?) was hashed out—where I used many quotes from scripture to show that the Law is binding on everyone—forever—and which warn us away from people like Paul.  Here it is again.

eddie - 10 December 2010 08:55 PM

3.I know heaps about atheists - from being their entertainment of the moment, on various occasions and various blogs. The international one, project-reason [the latest] and others less well known.

(Andrew):  You perhaps have had some experiences with unpleasant people who are atheists, but “atheism” requires no more than a lack of belief in God.  That’s all you really need to know about it.

eddie - 10 December 2010 08:55 PM

If I had to choose between being in a cage with an atheist, a lion, a shark or a creationist christian, I would choose the last.

(Andrew):  Of coure you would.  You’re a Christian.

[ Edited: 11 December 2010 03:09 AM by Andrew]
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Posted: 11 December 2010 04:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]  
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andrew’s quotes- from psalms

God’s law or righteousness/god’s character - what he likes and doesnt like etc etc IS FOR EVER Well of course god doesnt change - if the goal-posts kept changing we would never know where we stood.  That would be like a child living in a household with a schizophrenic parent -he could never win.  No consistency.

I think the psalmist was feeling very happy and contented, and admiring God for all these reasons - his unchangeableness, reliability, faithfulness, justice, mercy, goodness - everything.  I dont think he was worrying about keeping ‘laws’ [as in road laws, divorce laws, public health laws, criminal law whatever]

God’s character/requirements of us dont change - but people’s understanding of them obviously does - in any individual’s life [hopefully he understands better as he gets older and more mature] in a people’s history [hopefully they understand more clearly as time goes on and their history unfolds, having had more experience and a chance to learn from that.]

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Posted: 11 December 2010 05:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]  
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eddie - 11 December 2010 09:02 AM

God’s (...) requirements of us dont change…

(Andrew):  Exactly…at least according to scripture, they don’t.  So His Law—which is how He chose to inform us re: His requirements—hasn’t changed and again, according to scripture, never will.  And so those who ignore any of his Law (such as observance of the Sabbath) are not doing what God requires of them.  They’re not “walking with Him”. 
As a consequence, their salvation (if they believe in that sort of thing) is at risk. 
For a Christian to put their trust in a wandering, first-century mystic, prone to hallucination, over scriptural requirement to follow all the Law, always…is very curious to me. 
But, hey!  It’s your soul.  If you believe in that sort of thing.

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Posted: 11 December 2010 05:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]  
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Re Andrew’s Sabbath observance

The wandering mystic actually made it all much harder to do successfully - changing it from outward observance to inward motivation - the spirit behind the law. He also brought it back to common sense e.g.go and rescue the animal in the ditch, dont wait till the next day - or the example about david feeding his starving soldiers on the sabbath.  It had got out of hand - the basic meaning or idea had been lost in the myriad of rules and regulations,  Also, I dont think it matters whether you label Friday, Saturday or even Wednesday ‘the sabbath’ as long as you have one day off per week from the usual pressures of life with time to reflect and celebrate together.

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Posted: 11 December 2010 06:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]  
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I’ll be away for 12hours - Best wishes to all!
eddie

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Posted: 11 December 2010 09:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]  
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eddie - 11 December 2010 10:37 AM

Re Andrew’s Sabbath observance
The wandering mystic actually made it all much harder to do successfully - changing it from outward observance to inward motivation - the spirit behind the law.

(Andrew):  The Law, according to scripture, requires both.  Paul didn’t make anything harder…or easier…so far as a Jew is concerned.  He preached a totally different theology:  salvation, according to Paul, was no longer a matter of following God’s Law, but a matter of faith in his (Paul’s) “Christ”.  Paul expected you just to take his word on it. 
As I said…if that’s the choice you want to make…to put your trust in Paul rather than scripture, go for it.  But it doesn’t make much sense to me.

eddie - 11 December 2010 10:37 AM

He also brought it back to common sense e.g.go and rescue the animal in the ditch, dont wait till the next day - or the example about david feeding his starving soldiers on the sabbath.

(Andrew):  I’m not sure of your first reference, however the second is not to anything that Paul wrote, but to an account recorded in the synoptics where the “lawyers” accuse Jesus of violating the sabbath by healing the sick and by allowing his disciples to gather and eat grain as they walked along.  This was all a quibble (Jewish sages love to quibble) over the meaning of the word “work”…i.e. is it “work” to do what it takes to sustain life on the Sabbath?  Some said no, some said yes…but the point is that there was never any question about whether or not one should observe the Sabbath.  One should.

eddie - 11 December 2010 10:37 AM

It had got out of hand - the basic meaning or idea had been lost in the myriad of rules and regulations…

(Andrew):  The purpose of following the Law (all 613 of them) was to show your love for God by obeying him.  That’s what brought you salvation and it was not lost on a Jew.

eddie - 11 December 2010 10:37 AM

...as long as you have one day off per week from the usual pressures of life with time to reflect and celebrate together.

,
(Andrew):  The Sabbath is Saturday.  Jesus was allegedly resurrected—according to Christian scripture—on the day after the Sabbath.  That’s what Christians celebrate every Sunday—the resurrection of Jesus.  With an extra helping at Eastertime.
The way that you’re supposed to observe the Sabbath is pretty explicit.  You can’t work,  no one in your house—not even slaves or Gentile visitors—can work, and none of your animals can work (Exodus 20, Exodus 23 and Deuteronomy 5).
And the reason for the establishment of the Sabbath was not to have a day off to rest from the week’s exertions, but depending on which verse you read, to reflect on (Exodus 20:11) God’s having rested after His labors at creation, or (Deuteronomy 5:12) as a way to remember that Yahweh delivered the Hebrews from Egyptian slavery.
In any case, Jesus—whether or not he existed—had no effect on God’s Law.  He didn’t “fullfil” it.  It’s still in force.  And just like it’s always been, it’s up to you whether or not you want to obey it.
According to scripture.

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Posted: 11 December 2010 04:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]  
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Andrew

[ - Head so full of your own stuff you dont listen properly.]
1.It was YOU who called Jesus ‘the wandering mystic’ so it’s Jesus that made things harder—[IMPOSSIBLE actually.]  [Never mentioned Paul.]

2. I said the sabbath was “to reflect and celebrate”  - not just refrain from work

3.The gist of the mosaic law in the first place was to love God [no substitutes] and to love your neighbour/self. You dont need 600+laws to say that.  And the way that translates into actions/words in any given scenario, varies [in the minutiae] accordingly.

4. As I said - God doesnt change, but how we understand it changes - there was some progress between late Bronze Age, and Jesus’ time. [Various influences such as Greek debate,the experience of lots of Jewish history including captivity in Babylon + restoration etc etc]

5.The 600 concrete actions are at the same stage the Muslims are at now - i.e.‘what you DO’ rather than who you ARE and what you think

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Posted: 12 December 2010 03:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]  
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eddie - 11 December 2010 09:10 PM

It was YOU who called Jesus ‘the wandering mystic’....

(Andrew):  Actually, my reference was to Paul.  The bit about being “prone to hallucination” should have tipped you off.  Christianity, as we know it, is a Pauline invention.  Jesus’ existence (or not) as an historical figure is unimportant to it.

eddie - 11 December 2010 09:12 PM

I said the sabbath was “to reflect and celebrate”  - not just refrain from work

(Andrew):  Reflection and celebration are optional.  All that’s required—according to scripture—is that you don’t do any work on the Sabbath.  You can sleep all day if you like.  It’s set aside as a reminder that God created the universe…or…a reminder that he delivered the Hebrews from captivity.  And it falls on Saturday.

eddie - 11 December 2010 09:12 PM

The gist of the mosaic law in the first place was to love God [no substitutes] and to love your neighbour/self.

(Andrew):  Says who?  That’s not scriptural.  And the way you show your love for God is to do what He tells you to do, even if you think it’s pointless or silly or inconvenient.  If you ignore His law you’re showing Him disrespect, not love.

eddie - 11 December 2010 09:12 PM

You dont need 600+laws to say that.

(Andrew):  Then why do you suppose they appear in His Holy book with constant reminders sprinkled throughout for us to obey them all...forever?

eddie - 11 December 2010 09:12 PM

4. As I said - God doesnt change…

 
(Andrew):  Neither does His Law or our need to observe all of it—every jot and tittle—forever.  Again, this is according to scripture. 
You’re very strange: you accuse atheists of ignoring scripture, as you defend yourself…for ignoring scripture.  Honest, eddie…it’s all there in the book.  You can wave it off if you want and pretend that faith in Paul’s “Christ” will get you to heaven…but you’re taking a hell of a chance (pun intended).

eddie - 11 December 2010 09:12 PM

but how we understand it changes…

(Andrew):  How you’d rather understand it (so as to fit your Christian worldview) may change, but the Law is the same as it’s always been and still in force.  Very specific and easy to understand.

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Posted: 12 December 2010 05:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]  
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Andrew

It’s a pity, but your mind is so full of your own conclusions that it’s a waste of time   trying to talk to you.

You firmly believe that Christianity is something Paul invented [in which case it would have been Paulanity] You dont want to know what Jesus was preaching at all. And you stedfastly refuse to admit that the 10 commandments are about duty to one’s neighbour. [I dont know how else they could be described.  They certainly came in useful as the basis for Western civil law.] Then you contradict yourself, firstly insisting that the sabbath was for reflecting on 2 pieces of scripture, NOT resting from work; then when I pointed out that I had included the ‘reflection’ bit you changed round and said it was about resting from work!

You are unfortunately beyond help, and i’m not bothering with you any more. Waste somebody else’s time.

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Posted: 12 December 2010 06:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]  
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Andrew
I forgot to tell you, my name’s not Eddie, it’s Ginevra.  [but I knew who YOU were, even without the photo.]
My intention was to answer ‘Seeking truth’ ‘s original question, to which you gave an entirely unsatisfactory answer.  Just because you are a failed Jew, doesnt mean that you have a duty to tell lies and put other folk off so they end up as miserable as yourself. [I dont think THAT’s one of God’s 600+ rules.]

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Posted: 12 December 2010 06:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]  
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eddie - 12 December 2010 10:56 AM

You firmly believe that Christianity is something Paul invented [in which case it would have been Paulanity]

(Andrew):  Well, Christianity as we know it is certainly Paul’s invention.  People who call themselves Christian are following what Paul had to say, not anything that Jesus is reported to have said (how may Christians sell all their belongings and give the money to the poor, for instance?  That’s what Jesus is alledged to have advised his followers to do).  Why you guys don’t call yourselves “Paulites” is beyond me.

eddie - 12 December 2010 10:56 AM

You dont want to know what Jesus was preaching at all.

(Andrew):  See above.  In any case, we don’t know what Jesus said (if he even existed)—we only have 2nd and 3rd hand accounts written decades after the events they’re supposed to relate. Paul, on the other hand, wrote a lot and we still have much of it.  Or copies of it.

eddie - 12 December 2010 10:56 AM

And you stedfastly refuse to admit that the 10 commandments are about duty to one’s neighbour.

(Andrew):  Where have I refused to admit that?  I don’t think I’ve mentioned the Ten Commandments at all.  Neither have you up to this point.  What’s going on?

eddie - 12 December 2010 10:56 AM

Then you contradict yourself, firstly insisting that the sabbath was for reflecting on 2 pieces of scripture…

(Andrew):  No, it’s to commemorate—not reflect on (I misspoke)—one of two (possibly both) high points of the Jewish saga:  creation, and delivery from slavery.  The restriction against working on the Sabbath appears in, not two, but three places in scripture.  Maybe that’s where you got confused?

eddie - 12 December 2010 10:56 AM

...i’m not bothering with you any more.

(Andrew):  Suit yourself.

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Posted: 12 December 2010 06:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]  
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eddie - 12 December 2010 11:06 AM

I forgot to tell you, my name’s not Eddie, it’s Ginevra.

(Andrew): I don’t care what you use for a screen name (unless you’ve opened a sock puppet account—then I’ll zap you).  I only care about what you say.

eddie - 12 December 2010 10:56 AM

...you are a failed Jew…

(Andrew):  I’m no sort of Jew.  Never have been.

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Posted: 12 December 2010 05:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]  
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Andrew

commemorate, not reflect - on the passover.

What’s the difference?  they both mean ‘paying it attention’ rather than forgetting it. You would be better employed writing a dictionary than trying to understand religious thought.  You can manage ‘one word’ - just about - but when they get joined up you’re lost altogether.

Re ‘we have’nt mentioned the 10 commandments’ - that’s what i’ve been talking about, all along, as ‘the Mosaic Law’

Re you ‘only care what I say’: well, you pretend to.  In actual fact you play with it, and block it, acting more as an obstacle than a conduit for truth.

Re ‘Jesus never existed’ [You wish!] there’s plenty of evidence for that, it’s up to you to go after it.

Re Paul’s letters - they were his teaching to the new gentile believers [who didnt have the Jewish pentateuch/prophets base against which to assemble their thoughts.] They were also the objective narrative of a person who had not been personally involved in the events of Jesus [the man]‘s life and death, so he described it from a different point of view from the apostles [who also wrote letters]

Re “suit yourself” You know very well that no-one - least of all the so-called ‘moderate’ christian - is going to get the chance to say what he/she wants, because it is your job to thwart it.  That’s what the web-site is about - destroying the opposition. The frustrating thing for you and your buddies, is that you won’t destroy us [outside of this little spec in the universe called samharris.org.] 

So - get on with the crying and gnashing of teeth. The game won’t seem so attractive when you get to the same position as Christopher Hitchens is in right now. I’ve been with lots of dying people and few of them enjoy it. However, as you pointed out earlier in the interaction - it’s your soul.  Do what you like with it.

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