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Sam’s new thoughts on free will
Posted: 26 September 2012 11:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 211 ]  
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Skipping over the epic and tiresome duel between Coolinator and toombaru… I just read this article, which is an excellent discussion of topics around mind/brain, free will and religious belief.  Perfect for these forums.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2005/12/is-god-an-accident/304425/?single_page=true

The dualistic brain processes is a very apt explanation for the illusion of many things, animism to free will.

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Posted: 14 October 2012 05:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 212 ]  
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After reading Sam Harris, I wonder if anyone has thought about what the consequences of not believing that one has free will, will be?


One obvious thing, one should also not be as impressed by good deeds as before.


Not having a free will makes me think about a few other things too. What about feelings? Why do we have experienced feelings if we do not have a free will, what are their benefits. Why should I feel anger when I lack the free will to use it? Why are the emotions not connected directly to one’s behaviour? Remorse and guilt are very strange feelings if you do not have free will, are they not?


The next question is about consciousness, why have a mind at all if you do not have free will? What function does the mind have?

/Max

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Posted: 15 October 2012 05:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 213 ]  
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maxt - 14 October 2012 05:46 PM

Not having a free will makes me think about a few other things too. What about feelings? Why do we have experienced feelings if we do not have a free will, what are their benefits. Why should I feel anger when I lack the free will to use it? Why are the emotions not connected directly to one’s behaviour? Remorse and guilt are very strange feelings if you do not have free will, are they not?

I agree. Our brain might be the most complex structure ever evolved, and one of the most costly organs to be maintained by our bodies. It is not reasonable to believe that such an organ has evolved, not to have more capabilities than simpler brains, but to delude us in that we have more capabilities which we haven’t. There is no ratio in such a thought, and I can not imagine how natural selection would favour such delusion.

Sam’s booklet Free Will gives a good overview of the arguments against “conscious will” or “free will” (which is the capacity to choose a course of action.)

Let me give my personal opinion about each.

1. “Either our wills are determined by prior causes and we are not responsible for them, or they are the product of chance and we are not responsible for them.” (p.5)
Everything a surfer does has fysical causes, and yet he must have a clear conception of the waves, the wind etc… and (really, not illusionary) choose his moves. A cause is something different from a choice, and they are, evidently so, not mutually exclusive. 

2.“The physiologist Benjamin Libet famously used EEG to show that activity in the brain’s motor cortex can be detected some 300 milliseconds before a person feels that he has decided to move.” (p.8)
This and other experiments all show a sequence of: 1/ brain activity, 2/ consciousness and 3/ action.
It seems only natural, from a materialist point of view, that consciousness, or any course of action, can only be produced by neural activity, and therefor that neural activity will always precede our thoughts, and both unconscious and conscious actions. But this neural activity does not (as Binet himself suggested) prove that a final conscious decision has been made before we know (of course not!)

3. “Consider what it would take to actually have free will. You would need to be aware of all the factors that determine your thoughts and actions, and you would need to have complete control over those factors.” (p.13)
If “free will” is the capacity to choose a course of action, the only thing the agent needs to know are various possible courses, and a way to effectuate them. Modern knowledge of muscle physiology has not changed the number of possible movements we can make. I do not have to know in detail how my car works to drive it wherever I want.

4.“We know, in fact, that we sometimes feel responsible for events over which we have no causal influence. Given the right experimental manipulations, people can be led to believe that they consciously intended an action when they neither chose it nor had control over their movements.” (p.24)
A bit further Sam unwarrented changes this “sometimes” in “always”. We try indeed to make sense of confused situations, which is a very useful but sometimes erring capacity.
But we talk here about very cunningly misleading testing environments. You might create a situation in which I sometimes think I moved a cursor on the screen, while someone else did it, but you can not make me believe that I typed this text, while someone else did it. 

 

 

 

 

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Posted: 26 October 2012 03:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 214 ]  
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I would add another comment to Sam’ statement already mentioned:

Consider what it would take to actually have free will. You would need to be aware of all the factors that determine your thoughts and actions, and you would need to have complete control over those factors. (Free Will p.13)

In real life causes not only conglomerate in ecological mix-ups, they also produce emergence: new stable combinations following their own reason. To have a good grasp of causation, we should leave the ninetheenth century billiard-causation and appreciate that causes exist on different levels of being. So to be aware of all the necessary factors might be easier than it seems.

Suppose that we would definitely need “complete control” over all factors, as Sam Harris seems to believe. This would mean that as we don’t know what our neurons are doing, we can’t know why we choose coffee, or wear a hat. It would also mean that I have no say about the sentence I am now writing, because I am not aware of the electrons and photons involved. I have however control over them, because I steer them by typing charaters. What I decide to write is not dependent on the physical processes below; on the contrary, what happens physically fully depends on what I write, even without me knowing what happens below.

And in the end, I make my own free choices, expressed in sentences, without escaping fysical laws. 

[ Edited: 26 October 2012 08:27 AM by Siger]
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Posted: 06 November 2012 12:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 215 ]  
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Siger - 26 October 2012 03:20 AM

I would add another comment to Sam’ statement already mentioned:

Consider what it would take to actually have free will. You would need to be aware of all the factors that determine your thoughts and actions, and you would need to have complete control over those factors. (Free Will p.13)

In real life causes not only conglomerate in ecological mix-ups, they also produce emergence: new stable combinations following their own reason. To have a good grasp of causation, we should leave the ninetheenth century billiard-causation and appreciate that causes exist on different levels of being. So to be aware of all the necessary factors might be easier than it seems.

Suppose that we would definitely need “complete control” over all factors, as Sam Harris seems to believe. This would mean that as we don’t know what our neurons are doing, we can’t know why we choose coffee, or wear a hat. It would also mean that I have no say about the sentence I am now writing, because I am not aware of the electrons and photons involved. I have however control over them, because I steer them by typing charaters. What I decide to write is not dependent on the physical processes below; on the contrary, what happens physically fully depends on what I write, even without me knowing what happens below.

And in the end, I make my own free choices, expressed in sentences, without escaping fysical laws.


We don’t need “complete” control. We just need control. And we have it.


If we don’t like a thought or action we had/did, then we can reflect on it. We can discover our subconscious ideas and make them conscious and explicit. At this point we can criticize those ideas. We can refute them, thus changing our ideas. And by changing our ideas, we thereby change our thoughts/actions. This is free will in action.

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Posted: 12 December 2012 07:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 216 ]  
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maxt - 14 October 2012 05:46 PM

After reading Sam Harris, I wonder if anyone has thought about what the consequences of not believing that one has free will, will be?

The main thing that should become apparent after understanding that free will is an illusion is that our personal identity is also an illusion. Unfortunately knowing these things are illusions is not enough to stop us from beliving in them.


One obvious thing, one should also not be as impressed by good deeds as before.


Not having a free will makes me think about a few other things too. What about feelings? Why do we have experienced feelings if we do not have a free will, what are their benefits. Why should I feel anger when I lack the free will to use it? Why are the emotions not connected directly to one’s behaviour? Remorse and guilt are very strange feelings if you do not have free will, are they not?

Remorse and guilt make perfect sense if you belive you have free will. This is likely why Sam argues that removing that false belief will be beneficial both collectively and personally.

Also “why” is never a valid question since it always imples meaning. Which, you guessed it, is an illusion.


The next question is about consciousness, why have a mind at all if you do not have free will? What function does the mind have?

Why watch a movie if you cant control the actors? The mind is what is used to navigate the world. Its just a very usefull tool. Like the radar on a ship. So the mind is not the same thing as conciousness. You experience that you have a mind where as conciousness is what enables experience. Or, experience and consiousness is the same thing. And the mind is an experience “in” conciousness.

And “why” is BS. Same as in the previous question.

/Max

All my comments are above in bold.

[ Edited: 12 December 2012 07:21 PM by thisispointless]
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Posted: 12 December 2012 07:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 217 ]  
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Siger - 15 October 2012 05:56 PM
maxt - 14 October 2012 05:46 PM

4.But we talk here about very cunningly misleading testing environments. You might create a situation in which I sometimes think I moved a cursor on the screen, while someone else did it, but you can not make me believe that I typed this text, while someone else did it.

 


You can define it any way you like. You wrote the above text just as much as your hand, your pen or the entire universe did.
What really happned what that the universe unfolded in such a way that conciusness had the experience of beeing “you” writing the above text.

[ Edited: 12 December 2012 07:23 PM by thisispointless]
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Posted: 16 June 2013 10:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 218 ]  
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Rami Rustom - 06 November 2012 12:04 AM

We don’t need “complete” control. We just need control. And we have it.

A child’s spinning gyroscope controls it orientation.

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