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The Chronicles of Mormonia
Posted: 06 November 2006 05:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]  
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[quote author=“eucaryote”][quote author=“made_maka”]
The “dirtiest” little girl I knew, growing up, was my Mormon friend.  She had an insatiable appetite for innuendo and perverse speculation and an uncanny ability to scout out pictures of naked people in the most unlikely places.  For instance, in the Victorian novel Trilby.  (This novel by George du Maurier introduces Svengali to English literature.)

Are you suggesting that Cyndi’s apparent fascination with sex, (“dirty”), was a function of her mormon upbringing? Maybe she got a chance to act out with her non-mormon friends. It’s like the more we repress something natural the more it wants to express itself. Conflict….

I’m not sure.  EVERYONE was repressed then, and ALL of us were naughty little girls fascinated with sex.  Cyndi’s folks were very protective in general, but we all knew there was something “dirty”, “wrong”, “impure”, “sinful” and/or just “unhealthy” about sex.  Which just made us more interested.  Maki’s parents were probably the most liberal and sophisticated but even they thought exposure to sex was not wholesome for children.  I remember more “acting-out” among my nonCatholic friends, but that may just have been because I knew them better (few of my schoolfriends spent time at our summer cabin but all my neighborhood friends did).  We really were outrageous in terms of the things we got up to.  All the time knowing that they had to be secret. 

I recall when I was “that age”, we had Playboy! It would get passed around. What did you think that boy scouts did on their campouts. I guess I have Hef to thank for what I take to be a little bit of sexual sanity I enjoyed as a child…...ahhh! miss november, 1962. 8)

Yeah… looking up certain words in the dictionary and staring at gray offprints of Trilby weren’t all that.

My brother went to college when I was 2 and never came home again, so I never had the chance to run across a Playboy until that summer trip to France in high school.  Deprived.

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Posted: 06 November 2006 08:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]  
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Hey Noggin.
Again I’m baffled by the strangeness of your former church. I thought I had it bad, but it turns out I was walking on rose peddles all along.

I sure wont start giving you advice on how to raise your kids. Different country, different culture. But speaking as a child of a christian mother and an atheist father I will say that your kids are in a great environment. They get to view both worlds. If someone says that atheists are evil, they just have to look at their father and say “Don’t think so”. They get to choose their path freely. No matter what they choose, at least one parent will support them. They will not be left alone like many others.
If they have questions that they don’t dare to ask in church, they can go to you. Bottomline, they will have the luxury of a safetynet so broad that no matter if they choose humanism or religion they will have a parent to lean on. 

What I would do, in regards to your question about ‘religious war’ with your wife and her church, is to make a gameplan. Sit down together and device a plan of action if that problem would arise. It should be discussed casual in a “it’s not gonna happen, but..” kind of way. It’s all about compromise, give and take. Your common goal should be to protect your marriage. Come up with a plan on how to do that in times of trouble. How far you are both willing to go to protect your family. What sacrifices are you both willing to make and where do you draw the line. Write it down. The day may never come, when you need to read that paper again, but just having it will make you both feel secure. You will both know what the other has agreed to do. Done in a loving way, sitting on the same side of the table, sort of speak, religion will never be a problem. (My father solved it by not caring about my spirituality and focusing on my education.)

And of course, stick to that plan no matter what. If it’s as radical as moving to another part of the country, then do it.

Hope at least some of that was helpful.

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Posted: 07 November 2006 04:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]  
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[quote author=“made_maka”]EVERYONE was repressed then, and ALL of us were naughty little girls fascinated with sex.  Cyndi’s folks were very protective in general, but we all knew there was something “dirty”, “wrong”, “impure”, “sinful” and/or just “unhealthy” about sex.  Which just made us more interested.

Ok then that brings up back to the topic at hand, (so to speak). :D

Here we have an “activity” that all people and all kids engage in, universally. Kids especially are immensely curious. We know all this. It’s going to be expressed one way or another. Kids will naturally hide personal things from their parents even if their parents send them no untoward messages. And if they don’t get those messages from their parents, they will certainly get them from our society. The more guilt is induced the more we seek to hide our, “expression”.

So again, this is something we can expect to happen.

So given all of those things we know, what do the mormons do? Take advantage of it to gain control over the individual. One could take almost any random sample of teenage boys, of any, all, or no religious orientation, and question them critically about their masturbation habits and get all kinds of guilty and paranoid responses. And I’m sure that you could easily create all kinds of guilt and paranoia in the kids involved.

Again, I see this as child abuse. Suppose this happened in a secular setting, like substitute a school principal for the bishop.
Suppose he brought kids in, made them sit in the hall, brought them into the principals office, and grilled them about their masturbatory habits, used the information to ridicule them in front of their friends and family,  obviously inflict emotional pain causing them to cry .........teenage boys leaving the office crying after being humiliated and having their self worth assaulted (no impure vessels for the lord) ......You can just see some nurse Kratchett to lean on the girls. (I think that was her name…from Kesey’s One Flew Over The Cookoos Nest)

As a parent and a community member, I would have this principal tarred and feathered. It’s no wonder that the mormons were driven out of IL and MO to UT.

Yet, I am understanding from this conversation that this exact activity goes on in mormon schools/churches and catholic schools/churchs on a routine basis. And they routinely get a pass.
Somebody needs to expose this stuff.

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Posted: 07 November 2006 06:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]  
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[quote author=“eucaryote”]
So given all of those things we know, what do the mormons do? Take advantage of it to gain control over the individual. One could take almost any random sample of teenage boys, of any, all, or no religious orientation, and question them critically about their masturbation habits and get all kinds of guilty and paranoid responses. And I’m sure that you could easily create all kinds of guilt and paranoia in the kids involved.

You know, I never thought about that aspect of it.  Yikes.

Again, I see this as child abuse. Suppose this happened in a secular setting, like substitute a school principal for the bishop.  Suppose he brought kids in, made them sit in the hall, brought them into the principals office, and grilled them about their masturbatory habits, used the information to ridicule them in front of their friends and family,  obviously inflict emotional pain causing them to cry .........teenage boys leaving the office crying after being humiliated and having their self worth assaulted (no impure vessels for the lord) ......You can just see some nurse Kratchett to lean on the girls. (I think that was her name…from Kesey’s One Flew Over The Cookoos Nest)

As a parent and a community member, I would have this principal tarred and feathered. It’s no wonder that the mormons were driven out of IL and MO to UT.

I seem to remember “Dr. Laura” or one of her ilk having hysterics over a school questionnaire that asked some innocuous questions about sex.  Oh, the humiliation of innocent children!  The prying into private family matters!

I also seem to remember a high government official getting fired because she mentioned masturbation as a good thing.

Yet, I am understanding from this conversation that this exact activity goes on in mormon schools/churches and catholic schools/churchs on a routine basis. And they routinely get a pass.  Somebody needs to expose this stuff.

I’m afraid that even if exposed no one would care.  First of all, “it’s religion” and therefore untouchable.  Second, Americans are terrified of pre-adult sexuality anyway, hence the firing of Dr. Elders. 

There’s an interesting book out there, Harmful to Minors, by Judith Levine, which says among other things that children and teenagers have a right to sexual pleasure.  This is such a scandalous thing to suggest in America today that she almost couldn’t find a US publisher.  Here’s the Amazon URL: the first customer review is very interesting - almost reads like a post here.

 

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Posted: 07 November 2006 07:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]  
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[quote author=“made_maka”]

I’m afraid that even if exposed no one would care.  First of all, “it’s religion” and therefore untouchable.  Second, Americans are terrified of pre-adult sexuality anyway, hence the firing of Dr. Elders. 

There’s an interesting book out there, Harmful to Minors, by Judith Levine, which says among other things that children and teenagers have a right to sexual pleasure.  This is such a scandalous thing to suggest in America today that she almost couldn’t find a US publisher.

Prior to being exposed to Noggins plight, I would have blown my characterization off as funny exaggeration. Noggin made it pretty real. I wonder do they discuss this issue on the fair board :wink:

I think we may as well grant the “right” to sexual pleasure to children in as much as them having sexual pleasure, advertantly or inadvertantly is completely unavoidable. Being creatures with the sex organs that we have, sexual pleasure must be one of those “inalienable rights” that we are born with that FrankR talks about, though I don’t see freedom to masturbate in the Declaration of Independence LOL

That’s not the same as saying that it’s healthy for children should have sexual relations with each other or anything like that.

In this society we are total hypocrites. No one has any problem using sex to sell to kids and to sell and glorify sex to kids but then we turn around and tell them they must shun their feelings.

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Posted: 07 November 2006 12:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]  
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Hi there

Thanks for weighing in on this, Storm.  I really like your suggestion to get things discussed with her now.  It’s so pro active.  I am going to try that.

Eucaryote
The bishop does these “worthiness interviews” one on one in his office or at his house.  They are humiliating in that the teen seldom has the capacity to just “not masturbate” and has to face owning up to failure on at least a quarterly basis.  The teen is told he/she can overcome this “habit”.  Yet… few do.  Teens as young as 12 years old enter his domain, see him as a judge in Israel representing the Lord Jesus Christ, and, if they are worth their salt in honesty, spill all to this man.

I know a few Mormons who weren’t all that forth coming.  Lucky them.  But most of the people I would call “devout” coughed up every last sordid detail from french kissing, light or heavy petting, lustful thoughts, stealing, abortion (heaven forbid, right), to maturbatorialisms (I just made that word up).

I even ran into a few Mormon friends who had really laid back, “keepin’ it real” Bishops who never pestered them about their masturbatorialisms.  I often wonder what life would be like if that was my case.  I can be pretty sure that I would still be Mormon 100%.  That whole interigation process was completely intrusive and stunting… it basically drove me just about crazy to feel like such a shmuck all the time.

Minxs, you are right. No one would care if Mormonism was exposed for their probings.  In fact, you might see an across the board collective religious chin scratching as in…

hmmmmm not a bad idea, those Mormons have there


You know… I get that it really is not a big deal and I bled all over this thread about it.  I am trying to gain a more healthier outlook on it.  It’s a little wierd but cathartic.  Thanks for the comments and suggestions.  Rest assured if you ever met me, I’d never bring this topic up.  Which is completely wierd in and of itself.  Mia can vouch for me.

thanks again.

Noggin

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Posted: 07 November 2006 03:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]  
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[quote author=“Noggin”]Hi there
Thanks for weighing in on this, Storm.  I really like your suggestion to get things discussed with her now.  It’s so pro active.  I am going to try that.

It was in fact a brilliant piece of advice! Kudos to you, Storm, and I’m tucking it away for my next relationship. Why fret about how your partner might  react in a given situation when you can do a run-through and find out in advance? It might prove uncomfortable, might take a few tries before either of you feels you’ve got a solid idea of how things might really go down in a real-world scenario, but having at least some  idea is going to help you feel prepared/braced. . .  for better or worse, as they say.

Give the first run-through a chance to flop! Give each other permission to change your stance as you try it again, and again, and again. If the first run-throughs prove frustrating, maybe revisit it on two or three successive evenings, with the idea that no position should be considered final until you’ve considered each other’s opinion for x amount of time. Even people who think they’re dead sure of how they’ll respond to something. . . they might reconsider when push comes to shove. Either way, you’ll be doing the marriage a great service with this rehearsal. I can think of a whole bunch of areas where this sort of advance planning would be useful, especially as it relates to the kids.

[quote author=“Noggin”]
You know… I get that it really is not a big deal and I bled all over this thread about it.  I am trying to gain a more healthier outlook on it.  It’s a little wierd but cathartic.  Thanks for the comments and suggestions.  Rest assured if you ever met me, I’d never bring this topic up.  Which is completely wierd in and of itself.  Mia can vouch for me.

Actually, I wouldn’t have pegged you as particularly shy of this topic (for those of you who haven’t yet had the pleasure, Nogs comes across just as you see him here; a very gregarious and open-hearted type of person). . . but I commonly misjudge other people’s comfort level to talk about sex, forgetting that it took me years to get over the taboos surrounding even the mere mention of certain things. Interestingly, it always seems to be my male pals who end up blushing if the subject comes up, while most women I know don’t bat an eye, even talking very blatantly about it. Granted, I would say that most women I get into deep discussion with are not religious anymore, having long ago figured out that their early indoctrinization and shaming was totally bogus, entirely control-oriented. Catholicism’s version certainly is/was, and I feel lucky to have spotted that pretty early, even if I failed to spot the more foundational lies until many years later.  Labeling sex as being “For Procreation Purposes ONLY, Under Penalty of HELL”, much less being made to feel that a loss of virginity equaled the loss of my honor or my worth as a human being. . . . yeah, you can just bite me, Popey Man. “Sex-without-the-benefit-of-marriage” is not just for your repressed priests and their unwilling alter boys anymore.

Lucky we didn’t order a second plate of fries, Nogs, because eventually I’d have gotten around to an unhinhibited rant along these lines, and would’ve embarrassed the hell out of you, poor man raspberry wink.

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Posted: 07 November 2006 05:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]  
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[quote author=“Noggin”]
Eucaryote
The bishop does these “worthiness interviews” one on one in his office or at his house.  They are humiliating in that the teen seldom has the capacity to just “not masturbate” and has to face owning up to failure on at least a quarterly basis.  The teen is told he/she can overcome this “habit”.  Yet… few do.  Teens as young as 12 years old enter his domain, see him as a judge in Israel representing the Lord Jesus Christ, and, if they are worth their salt in honesty, spill all to this man.

I know a few Mormons who weren’t all that forth coming.  Lucky them.  But most of the people I would call “devout” coughed up every last sordid detail from french kissing, light or heavy petting, lustful thoughts, stealing, abortion (heaven forbid, right), to maturbatorialisms (I just made that word up).

Check, I understand this and the pressure that leads up to it if you are “born” mormon. I understand that honesty is important, maybe especially to kids. They put you up between the rock and the proverbial hard place. I always had a hard time lying if I figured that they knew somehow. In this case, as we are all guilty, all they had to do was pretend to know.

I don’t know about you but it occurs to me that were I you, (a position that I can’t really put myself), it might be cathartic to hunt this bishop fellow up and let him know as an adult, what you now think about what he did to you. To me, as a life long atheist, he sounds like a sick f—k.

In the Book of Merlin, one of the things that Merlin turns Arthur into, is an ant, (to teach him the difference between might and right and to demonstrate to him that nature had worked out many political systems long ago). When Arthur, (as an ant) entered the ant tunnels, the sign over the tunnel read,
WELCOME TO THE ANTHILL
EVERYTHING NOT FORBIDDEN IS COMPULSORY.

Anyway I am reminded of the mormons and Utah the beehive state.

[quote author=“Noggin”]I even ran into a few Mormon friends who had really laid back, “keepin’ it real” Bishops who never pestered them about their masturbatorialisms.  I often wonder what life would be like if that was my case.  I can be pretty sure that I would still be Mormon 100%.  That whole interigation process was completely intrusive and stunting… it basically drove me just about crazy to feel like such a shmuck all the time.

Hmmm, masturbation guilt was the hinge pin? To be frank noggin, you don’t strike me that way. You have presented to us quite a rational understanding of why you now think the way you do. It seems apparent to me that while you were terminally frustrated with the sexual harassment of the church, you have also completely reasoned your way out it or through it, which is where it’s at. Humanism or atheism is more of a place one maintains one’s self than anything to believe in.

[quote author=“Noggin”]You know… I get that it really is not a big deal and I bled all over this thread about it.  I am trying to gain a more healthier outlook on it.  It’s a little wierd but cathartic.  Thanks for the comments and suggestions.  Rest assured if you ever met me, I’d never bring this topic up.  Which is completely wierd in and of itself.  Mia can vouch for me.

thanks again.

Noggin

Hey I wouldn’t feel self concious just because you were essentially abused as a child. It was a big enough deal to have resulted in this thread. I don’t think any differently of you but I understand some things better than I ever have, mostly because I’m dense and slow…Anyway I appreciate the education.

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Posted: 08 November 2006 01:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]  
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That’s great that you’ll be able to share books with your kids.  Just don’t be too surprised if you have to wait until after the hormones quit surging first to share it with them—“Whatever, Dad!  Can I have the car keys now?”  :wink:

If your wife is happy with the mormon church, I am sure she will be able to teach them to be happy and content with it too.  There are many happy mormons.  There is a great deal that they can learn about devotion and service from an upbringing in the mormon church, and from going on a mission they can learn self-discipline.  And even if they know the truth, they may still stay for social reasons, or because they have married mormons.

Your logic struck me as a little off when you said that love was a bad reason for getting married.  In that case, you would have to follow that logic and say that love is a bad reason for staying married, too.  :?

In any case, good luck with everything!

Josie

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Posted: 08 November 2006 02:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]  
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[quote author=“Josie”]
Your logic struck me as a little off when you said that love was a bad reason for getting married.  In that case, you would have to follow that logic and say that love is a bad reason for staying married, too.  :?

In any case, good luck with everything!

Josie

Love is the worst reason to get married.  Love is totally blind.  Josie.  You know what kind of love I am talking about.  BYU love.  Did you ever go to BYU?  Good grief!  18 to 20 years olds running around dating each other and within 3 or 4 dates they go from perfect strangers to engaged to be married.

Whaaaa?

All because they cannot consummate the initial attraction phase of dating that other non mormon 18-20 years also feel but do something about.  Hormones scream at them to consummate but they cannot have sex… Hormones rage, they feel completely frustrated sexually, mistake that for love and often run off to the Mormon temple to get married.  More often than not.  I know so many kids at BYU who did this.  I know a few who went from strangers to married folk within 3 or 4 months!

Myself, case in point.. 1st wife and I went from strangers in October to married folk in June.  8 months.  We were completely incompatible as far as life interests go.  We were engaged in 2 months of dating and it was torture for 5 or 6 months waiting to get married.  If I was supposed to look rationally at the incompatabilities, I was hindered by the raging hormones.  An excuse?  A cop out?  Tell me what you think.

The Mormon formula goeth like this:  Any two worthy Mormons who are striving to live the gospel of Jesus Christ can marry and make a marriage last.  That is preached from the pulpit (Bruce R. McConkie late 80’s).

It’s one of the reasons, I am completely convinced, that Prozak usage is the highest rate (off the charts) in Utah of all the states in America.

My kids may or may not turn out to be religious.  There is a disturbing trend in Mormonism where many more Mormon youth are being “deceived” by “Satan” into following the “ways of the world”.  The church has raised the bar of expectations for its youth and is driving many of them away.  I have 2 cousins and 2 nephews who are done with Mormon already before the age of 21.  Two of them did not go on missions.  My sister left Mormonism.

These demands appear to be straining the youth credulity and the advent of readily available high speed internet does not help the church.  Only the more polarized will survive.  This is why http://www.fairboards.org is becoming evermore the watchdog organization for defense (and in their opinion, offense) against the attacks on their faith based claims.

Noggin

post script: you said something about my logic being off with staying in a marriage because of love.  I see where you are coming from.  I guess I got lucky the second time around?  My wife, though Mormon, does not hold the party line staunch closed mindedness of many Mormons.  If she did, she’d a divorced me by now on account of my apostasy (like my 1st wife did).  She is still devout, mind you, but realistic.

Many times women stay in an abusive or unhealthy marriage because they “love” their husbands.  That’s is unfortunate.  Maybe that fits more along the lines of what I was saying.

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Posted: 08 November 2006 02:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]  
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[quote author=“Noggin”]Love is the worst reason to get married.  Love is totally blind.

Ha.  I see you are a romantic.  raspberry

You know what kind of love I am talking about.  BYU love.

Good God!  Yes.  I know.  I had one friend, she was proposed to on the first date.  She said yes.  They were married within two months.  Actually, they are still married fifteen years later…

Did you ever go to BYU?

Yes I did.  I met my husband there.  Did you go to BYU law school by any chance?  You and he could compare notes.

All because they cannot consummate the initial attraction phase of dating that other non mormon 18-20 years also feel but do something about.  Hormones scream at them to consummate but they cannot have sex…

Oh, but there were those Levi love moments.  I know you know what I’m talking about.  raspberry

Hormones rage, they feel completely frustrated sexually, mistake that for love and often run off to the Mormon temple to get married.  More often than not.  I know so many kids at BYU who did this.  I know a few who went from strangers to married folk within 3 or 4 months!

That about sums it up.

If I was supposed to look rationally at the incompatabilities, I was hindered by the raging hormones.  An excuse?  A cop out?  Tell me what you think.

You were young.  Inexperienced.  That is what I think.  You didn’t know what love is.  I am sure your vision of love is altogether different now.

The Mormon formula goeth like this:  Any two worthy Mormons who are striving to live the gospel of Jesus Christ can marry and make a marriage last.  That is preached from the pulpit (Bruce R. McConkie late 80’s).

You know, it does work for some people.  They are so involved they can see nothing else but the Celestial goal.  They cannot see that they are unhappy and unfulfilled, sexually, emotionally, intimately, with the person they are married to.  They mistake a spiritual similarity for honesty and true compatibility and marital intimacy.  If they knew what it was truly like, to have such a thing, they would cast off this facade of saccarine marriage in a heart’s beat.

It’s one of the reasons, I am completely convinced, that Prozak usage is the highest rate (off the charts) in Utah of all the states in America.

My mother is on Prozac.  She’s a very happy mormon.

My kids may or may not turn out to be religious.  There is a disturbing trend in Mormonism where many more Mormon youth are being “deceived” by “Satan” into following the “ways of the world”.  The church has raised the bar of expectations for its youth and is driving many of them away.  I have 2 cousins and 2 nephews who are done with Mormon already before the age of 21.  Two of them did not go on missions.  My sister left Mormonism.

That is very interesting.  I have not seen that bourn out where I am, it might be geographical.  At any rate, if your children do stay, they’ll be praised for their faithfulness and shamed if they question.  But you already know that.

These demands appear to be straining the youth credulity and the advent of readily available high speed internet does not help the church.

Good luck, church!  There’s too much ease and availability for them to keep everything a mystery only for the faithful. 

Many times women stay in an abusive or unhealthy marriage because they “love” their husbands.  That’s is unfortunate.  Maybe that fits more along the lines of what I was saying.

Or they fear rocking the boat.  I’m glad for you that your wife will allow you to raise your children how you want to.  It’s hard and confusing for the kids when there is a constant tug-of-war between parents.  One religious parent believes they have the moral high ground automatically, while the other one knows they have the factual high ground.  Children don’t understand either one, and cannot judge between them.  In their simplicity, they gravitate to the truths that they are taught.  The hard part is when one parent is judged by the ‘truth’ the children have gravitated to as being “wrong”, “misled”, etc.  The church would brand you as “misled”; rationalists would brand your wife as “misled”.  Your children will have to learn that there is no absolute truth.  You’ll have to be patient if they are very young.  It will take a while for them to make distinctions like that.  The church will do its best to indoctrinate them into its way of thinking while they are young and impressionable.  It is easy for them to say “People who do not follow the prophet are wrong.” while it is hard for you to say “Joseph Smith made all of this up.”  Children can grasp that a person could be wrong for not doing “right” things like obeying the WoW or not following the prophet.  They have multiple Primary lessons about that all year long. (I know, I was a Primary teacher.)  But you cannot explain to them how a person might have been duplicitous or have a hidden agenda or have made something up in order to have fame and power.  By the time they are old enough to understand these things, they will have had years and years of indoctrination in their heads.  It’s very hard to let go of that again, as I am sure you struggle with it still every day.

It is very interesting when you look at cultures where invaders have come in and settled.  Often times the father, who is a stranger to that country, will bring his language and customs in, but it will be the native mother’s lessons and religion and language that the children will end up living and speaking.  Only when invaders bring their wives and families along do cultures change.  When the Romans invaded, if they did not have settlers come with their entire families to establish the Pax Romana, then the cultures they invaded eventually returned to the native way.  The mother’s influence is much stronger over children.  It stands to reason, since she is the one that spends the most time with them, while the father is off making a living for the family.

TTFN,
Josie

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Posted: 09 November 2006 01:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]  
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Noggin,
I am new to this board, so I should introduce myself first. I am an Athiest married to a man I would describe as Agnostic…though he would say he is Baptist. He is unsure if there is a god out there, but can’t quite believe there isn’t some devine hand behind all this. We agreed in the beggining to simply let our children choose for themselves on all matters religious. At first I thought this was a good idea, and the most enlightened way to handle questions of religion. As my kids have asked questions, we have simply given both sides of the answers and let them take it for what they will. I now see that this is actually quite destructive. Both my eleven year old and eight year old daughters have stated that they believe in god. I have even let them go to church a time or two with my sister-in-law. The more I think about it though, these girls are not getting a fair deal! When I asked them WHY they believe, neither can give an answer. Better yet the only thing I got out of them, other than the usual, “I don’t know.” (which is, btw, the answer I get from them for EVERY question I ask!) was from my eight year old. She said she belived because a boy at school told her she had to, or she would go to hell. And here I thought they were safe from this crap at school! These girls are claiming a belief based on nothing more than the fact that it is the same thing all their friends believe in!
Noggin I have come to the conclusion that if we do not teach our kids to resist the “follow the leader” mentality they are learning in every aspect of their lives, we are doing them a great disservice. In this great “Christian Nation” we live in, (especialy here in the bible belt) not teaching our kids to resist religion is the same thing as telling them to embrace it. You can be sure that if you don’t teach them the truth at home, there will be someone…or many someones out there to pick up the slack and teach them their form of the truth!

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Posted: 09 November 2006 02:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]  
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t-froggy,

Most kids at that age are content if they can place a label on something. What you see is that many adults never advance beyond that stage. Labeling is preliminary to understanding something, but it affords no understanding in itself, because cognition may not yet be ready for understanding. Teaching your kids about the hollowness of labels is a great place to start. That’s what my parents did. It is a kind of inoculation against the virus, but it is not the only one.

What’s in a name?

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Posted: 09 November 2006 02:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]  
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Thanks Salt,
The best “inoculation against the virus” I have found so far for my eleven year old, has been to sit down with her and acctually read the bible and LTACN togther. I am proud to say she is shaping up to be quite a good little feminist! :wink:  Pointing out the blatent sexism in the bible has been the best way to wake her up the exactly what she is claiming belief in. As for her little sister, I feel she is too young yet for me to have any desire to explain in full the meaning of words like rape and incest…so I will have to wait a while to tackle her.

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