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Posted: 21 April 2007 07:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]  
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[quote author=“Salt Creek”]
I’ve had my fill of both, Mr. Holier-Than-Thou-Grouchy-Poster.

Burt is a poseur, and if you did not have some spiritual commitment, you might realize that.

Tough luck Salty, guess you’ll just have to put up with me.

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Posted: 21 April 2007 07:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]  
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[quote author=“burt”]Tough luck Salty, guess you’ll just have to put up with me.

Well. At least we now know what the bottom line is. We merely have to “put up with” your “fashionable nonsense”.

You still do not seem to have crap to say about your obvious and egregious factual errors.

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Posted: 21 April 2007 07:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]  
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[quote author=“Salt Creek”]I’ve had my fill of both, Mr. Holier-Than-Thou-Grouchy-Poster.

Hmmm, seems like you don’t take it nearly as well as you dish it out.

Burt is a poseur, and if you did not have some spiritual commitment, you might realize that. It’s his intellectual dishonesty that I’m objecting to, not the content that this dishonesty produces.


So it has nothing to do with the fact that you are full of yourself and enjoy belittling people from the safety of your keyboard ?

I’ve presented a couple of clear factual errors of which burt is guilty. Why don’t you address those? I’ll tell you why. You don’t have the chops.

No, it is because I choose to address the fact that you are acting like a dick.
Why don’t you show some real courage and apologize to Burt.

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“You know I’m born to lose, and gambling is for fools.
But that’s the way I like it baby, I don’t want to live forever.”

From the autobiography of A.A.Mills, ‘The passage of time, according to an estranged, casual tyrant.’

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Posted: 21 April 2007 08:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]  
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[quote author=“Sander”]No, it is because I choose to address the fact that you are acting like a dick.
Why don’t you show some real courage and apologize to Burt.

Burt has made some substantial errors of fact. I apologize for calling him a gasbag in response, but it does not change my opinion that he is, indeed, a terrible blowhard.

Do let me know about factual errors on my part. I am always willing to admit that I am wrong on matters of fact.

And pardon me if I look away while you are kissing burt’s ass.

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Posted: 21 April 2007 10:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]  
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Gentlemen!  Gentlemen!

I’m probably the only one who hasn’t finished reading it yet, but in case anyone has missed it:  ‘COLLAPSE - How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed’ by Jared Diamond (author of the Pulitzer Prize-winning ‘GUNS, GERMS, AND STEEL) offers a good overview of several Southeast Pacific Island societies that failed, including Easter Island. 

Presently I’m on the chapter that deals with the Anasazi of Chaco Canyon - how they deforested their land and ended up hand-carrying their construction timbers 60 miles!  Read how scientists can tell the exact year that a room was built as far back as the tenth century A.D.  How did that grand settlement end?  Headless mouse bones in preserved human feces; plenty of evidence of violence and canabalism in their final days.

“Some time between A.D. 1150 and 1200, Chaco Canyon was virtually abandoned and remained largely empty until Navajo sheepherders reoccupied it 600 years later.  Because the Navajo did not know who had built the great ruins that they found there, they referred to those vanished former inhabitants as the Anasazi, meaning “the Ancient Ones.”

Elsewhere, this author mentions that many modern Hopi and Zuni expect their people to still be here long after our own ravenous civilization has gone.  If that is the case, perhaps they will need to move north as their ancestral home becomes even more blistering and dry.

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Posted: 21 April 2007 10:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]  
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[quote author=“Salt Creek”]
Burt has made some substantial errors of fact.

Good heavens, you are right.
I’ll report him to the police for this heinous crime.


And pardon me if I look away while you are kissing burt’s ass.

My my, you are a nasty little fucker aren’t you.

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“You know I’m born to lose, and gambling is for fools.
But that’s the way I like it baby, I don’t want to live forever.”

From the autobiography of A.A.Mills, ‘The passage of time, according to an estranged, casual tyrant.’

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Posted: 21 April 2007 11:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]  
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Jared Diamond is not to be missed. Glad to hear you’re enjoying the book, unsmoked.
There’s an article in the 4/16 issue of the New Yorker that many of you might like to read. First of all, the guy who’s the subject started out as a missionary Bible translator in the Amazon. After many years he noticed that the tribal people were not seeing any spiritual significance at all in the Bible stories he translated into their language, and he realized that, by golly, neither did he.
This tribe is apparently quite unique in resisting influence from outsiders. The main thrust of the article is about their language and how it challenges the Chomsky theory of universal grammar. I would find it more interesting to hear more about why the tribe is so unimpressed with the ways of others.
Another point of interest related to this thread is the lack of myth, as far as we know, with these people. According to Dan Everett, who has spent most of his life studying their language and culture, the Piriha are simply not interested in anything outside their immediate experience. The article says that many people in the Amazon don’t have a creation myth, and when asked will say ‘it’s always been like this’. But there are types of mythology other than creation stories, and these folks, the Piriha just don’t seem to be interested in stories.
Back when Everett was trying to tell them about Jesus, their question was ‘have you met him’ and when told the guy lived a couple of thousand years ago they just thought it was a joke. They don’t even have words for numbers beyond ‘one’ and ‘more’.
It’s really hard to tell, however, what exactly is going on with people who are so different from us. For example, they had a great time watching a DVD of King Kong, so that shows some interest in story. Also the writer mentions how the whole tribe stayed up all night talking and laughing, one assumes that they were amused by their visitors…and that is a sort of storytelling.
Everett’s ex-wife, who is still in Brazil studying (and translating the Bible for) the same people, thinks he is missing a lot by not learning the ‘music’ of their language. That struck me also as a possible key to the more emotional dimension of their language, which could hide a lot of the value system and possible beliefs of the tribe.

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Posted: 21 April 2007 11:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]  
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[quote author=“unsmoked”]Gentlemen!  Gentlemen!

I’m probably the only one who hasn’t finished reading it yet, but in case anyone has missed it:  ‘COLLAPSE - How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed’ by Jared Diamond (author of the Pulitzer Prize-winning ‘GUNS, GERMS, AND STEEL) offers a good overview of several Southeast Pacific Island societies that failed, including Easter Island. 

Presently I’m on the chapter that deals with the Anasazi of Chaco Canyon - how they deforested their land and ended up hand-carrying their construction timbers 60 miles!  Read how scientists can tell the exact year that a room was built as far back as the tenth century A.D.  How did that grand settlement end?  Headless mouse bones in preserved human feces; plenty of evidence of violence and canabalism in their final days.

“Some time between A.D. 1150 and 1200, Chaco Canyon was virtually abandoned and remained largely empty until Navajo sheepherders reoccupied it 600 years later.  Because the Navajo did not know who had built the great ruins that they found there, they referred to those vanished former inhabitants as the Anasazi, meaning “the Ancient Ones.”

Elsewhere, this author mentions that many modern Hopi and Zuni expect their people to still be here long after our own ravenous civilization has gone.  If that is the case, perhaps they will need to move north as their ancestral home becomes even more blistering and dry.

That is a great book, and quite scary.

My brother has been fascinated with the Anasazi and Chaco for years.  One of the things I understand did the culture in was a prolonged drought.  As the Chaco culture collapsed, I’ve been told, what emerged was the kachina pueblo culture which places far less stress on the environment.  In a similar situation in pre-Inca Chile I’m told the response was to develop deep well technology.  (This is all second hand for me, from talking to people who are better informed.)

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Posted: 21 April 2007 11:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]  
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Pat_Adducci - have you seen the film, ‘The Story of the Weeping Camel?’

It has been a while, but maybe it was semi-documentary about the nomads of Mongolia (not sure) - beautifully done, very simple story about a camel that rejected it’s new calf, that is, refused to let it nurse, and the herdsmen’s efforts to save it.  At any rate, a small boy is given the task of riding alone to the nearest town to fetch the shaman.  While there he see how ‘the other half’ lives.  He sees a satellite television. 

I have a feeling that within a few years, even the most remote tribesmen will be sitting around a television in the evening, watching King Kong reruns or . . . Friday Night Smackdown?  How much of their old ways will survive this onslaught of modern ‘culture?’

Grandpa, sitting at the table with us, remembers when Africa was ‘The Dark Continent’, when huge areas of the globe, the Congo, or the Amazon, for example, were virtually unexplored.  We’ve had the privilage of seeing the last of the ancient ways.

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“The simple fables of the religious of the world have come to seem like tales told to children.”  - Nobel Prize recipient - Francis Crick

“It is time we recognized the boundless narcissism and self-deceit of the saved.” - Sam Harris

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Posted: 22 April 2007 09:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]  
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Yes - really enjoyed ‘The Story of the Weeping Camel’ - it would be a great one to watch with kids. Another unusual film I just saw (from Netflix) is ‘Dersu Uzala’ - based on actual memoirs of Siberia a hundred years ago. Film by Kurosawa, more than 20 years old, beautiful.

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Posted: 22 April 2007 06:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]  
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[quote author=“Pat_Adducci”]Yes - really enjoyed ‘The Story of the Weeping Camel’ - it would be a great one to watch with kids. Another unusual film I just saw (from Netflix) is ‘Dersu Uzala’ - based on actual memoirs of Siberia a hundred years ago. Film by Kurosawa, more than 20 years old, beautiful.

I saw Dersu when it first came out and still remember some of the haunting and beautiful images . . . I can hear the very cold snow squeaking under their footsteps.

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“The simple fables of the religious of the world have come to seem like tales told to children.”  - Nobel Prize recipient - Francis Crick

“It is time we recognized the boundless narcissism and self-deceit of the saved.” - Sam Harris

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