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Transcendentalism Today & Spirituality
Posted: 13 June 2005 06:35 AM   [ Ignore ]  
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Why do people shy away from the concept of connecting an Intelligent Designer with evolution? Is it because of the bad reputation that many religions have created for the ID through their superstitions beliefs that are justifiably looked upon as mere myth by the scientific community? Why do most psychologists prefer not to discuss spirituality with their patients? Is it because they themselves are often baffled by it and also harbor religiously conditioned superstitions?

Evolution and the Intelligent Designer are intertwined. If it were not for evolution, there would be no ID. If the ID exists where then did it come from? Did the ID create life or did life create the ID? Did Life begin on earth?

IMO, most of the people as well as I who subscribe to a logical Intelligent Design Theory theorize that the designer does not necessarily create or has created anything in the physical universe but that there is a collective consciousness (the ID) that guides the development of the universe like a Master Planner; there are no religious connections.

Spirit or soul is the record of our consciousness. This record of our consciousness is sustained via righteous living and upon our physical demise it is cleansed and transmitted to the ID. Evil deeds kill the conscience. It makes no difference what one believes or does not believe during our lifetime.

Religion is the culmination of its own politics and dogma and has often become something other than spirituality. Shouldn’t religions strive to promote that truthfulness and rationality in religions are truths that can be substantiated by science or those that can not be proven to be wrong? Spiritual interaction is only possible between spirits. Claims of supernatural acts performed by physical or spiritual beings in the physical universe are not truths.

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Posted: 13 June 2005 10:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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The Intelligent Designer Proclaims:

I Am The Intelligent Designer.
I did not come from nowhere.
I play no magic tricks on man.
I did not create the earth by casting spells.
I had a humble beginning the same as man;
My beginning was at the dawn of spirituality.
My wisdom grows as more spirits unite
After the cessation of life after much physical strife.
Throughout time I have been named God,
Allah, Jehovah, The Great Spirit, and many more.
I do not judge man for his vanity or naivety
To be the one who claims to please me the most.
I am easy to please. I require very little.
I only want you to do what is best for mankind.
I will bless you and wish you well.
I will inspire your mind and you will
Accomplish the unfathomable.
I require no worship. I need nothing from man.
I am self sufficient. I am spirit.

Develop your spirit wisely, the best that you can.
Live your life for the betterment of man.
Your spirit will soon be with me and then
Together we will see and traverse the universe.
There are many wonders to behold,
Your spirit will soar.
You will partake in all the wisdom
That has been gathered from the beginning of time.
The stars will be your playground.
You can play with the animals,
Be with your loved ones,
Listen to the greatest opera,
Stage or musical performances,
Or you can just relax next to a bubbling brook
And enjoy the scenery.
You feel no pain, despair,
Heartache, or negative emotions.
You are now One with me.
You are with the SPIRITUAL UNITY my child.

Kurt
 

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Posted: 13 June 2005 01:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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Kurt, you’d have to be either a nutcase or a fanatic to believe in evolution when so many holes have been punctured in the “theory.” Sorry for being blunt, but come on. The only experts that truly believe in this poppycock are working in academia.

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Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-29

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Posted: 13 June 2005 01:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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[quote author=“TheChampion”]Kurt, you’d have to be either a nutcase or a fanatic to believe in evolution when so many holes have been punctured in the “theory.” Sorry for being blunt, but come on. The only experts that truly believe in this poppycock are working in academia.

Translation: The smartest people in the world have a more complete understand about the way things work than the dumbest.

Sorry Champ, but you seem even less insightful than usual tonight.

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Philosophy may in no way interfere with the actual use of language; it can in the end only describe it. For it cannot give it any foundations either. It leaves everything as it is.
Ludwig Wittgenstein

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Posted: 13 June 2005 01:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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homunculus, sometimes people think they’re smart when they’re not. Do you call believing in a theory that has been proven to be full of holes, smart?

Continue on if you may, but I think faith in God is a much better route. Maybe you realize this someday. I pray it so, my friend.

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Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-29

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Posted: 13 June 2005 03:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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[quote author=“TheChampion”]homunculus, sometimes people think they’re smart when they’re not. Do you call believing in a theory that has been proven to be full of holes, smart?

Chump, clearly you must be referring to Chritianity which has been proven to be so “full of holes” that any remaining substance is undetectable.

For example, you have repeatedly failed to address any of the hundreds of holes that have been identified on this forum alone.

Speaking of holes Chump…........where are the bones???? 

The bones of Adam?  Eve?  Abraham?  Noah? Moses? David? Joseph? Mary? John the Babtist? Jesus?....... or any of the other mythical biblical characters?

Let’s try your standard of proof for evolution on the Bible!

Where are the Bones?  Where are the Biblical Bones?  Where in the world are those pesky Christian Bones, Chump?

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Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful…..Lucius Annaeus Seneca, Roman (3 BC - 65 AD)

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Posted: 13 June 2005 04:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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[quote author=“TheChampion”]Kurt, you’d have to be either a nutcase or a fanatic to believe in evolution when so many holes have been punctured in the “theory.” Sorry for being blunt, but come on. The only experts that truly believe in this poppycock are working in
academia.

Champ, you’d have to be either a nutcase or a fanatic to believe in “Creation” (God creating everything in 7 days) when so many holes have been punctured in the “theory.” Sorry for being blunt, but come on.

So what is left? Many scientists and experts that truly believe in Intelligent Design (what mankind calls God) are working in academia. The problem is, man has created an image of God from superstitious beliefs that are nonsensical.

Kurt

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Posted: 13 June 2005 04:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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All of what we can presently see of the universe, its billions of stars, the galaxies, and other solar systems with its planets only represent less than 2% of the total existence of the universe. It is naïve of us to assume that throughout the trillions of years past that life has only existed on our small world and therefore the spiritual existence, the Intelligent Designer (God) came about through mankind. We can compare our knowledge to the collective spiritual consciousness, the beginning of the ID and the beginning of life in the universe as that of a two year old child who is just developing its reasoning abilities. Our world status within the universe is comparable to a mere grain of sand, a simple molecule that makes up the vast expanse of the universe.

People have portrayed the ID as being mysterious when the concept of the ID is really quite simple. The ID is a loving, peaceful coexistence of spiritual souls including ours upon our physical demise. The ID’s intelligence is ever expanding and grows with the addition of each soul. Every soul is like a separate cell or atom on earth which combines with other cells or atoms to make up the existence of every living person, plant, animal and even the air which sustains all life; so also do souls perform, either individually or in unison. The bonding of the first two righteous souls, the first reasoning entities, the ID whom mankind has called God, originated somewhere in the universe on our earth or on a planet in another solar system, possibly billions of years ago. The bonding of the first two souls created spiritual unity which expanded and progressed, created Cumulative Intelligence which our spirit/soul can tap into to receive inspiration and therefrom perform the seemingly impossible.

One needs to keep an open mind and allow the spirit to absorb the logic of who/what the ID is without being inhibited by what should be considered outdated religious dogma and conditioning that has also been a major contributing factor to the causes of killings and terrorism. When peoples’ concept of the ID is flawed, corrections, truth, logic and common sense thereof must eventually prevail. Human fallibility and misconceptions have labeled the ID for several millennia as one who interferes with the natural forces and free will of people by threatening punishment to those who disobey his bidding. The ID of our ancestors had to be humanized in order to have the masses adapt the thought processes to that time period. The ID does not change with the times but our perception of who/what the ID is should change as societies eliminate their superstitious beliefs.

Kurt

 

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Posted: 13 June 2005 05:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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Nice words, Kurt and CA. And Champ, I appreciate the sentiment, but still disagree with you. Maybe someday I’ll get Alzeimer’s (or maybe I’ve already got it) and I’ll go back to the way I was when I was 17, attempting to be a literalistic believer in your faith. Meanwhile, I feel about 10 times more mentally healthy than I ever did trying to bend my mind around your torturing literalisms.

I’m going to take a chance here that you’ll understand a subtle comment. Maybe you will and maybe you won’t. I wrote the following to a literalist friend of mine who’s as strict in his interpretation as you are, and I composed most of it on another thread here about a month or so ago. My friend understood the concept, though he still of course believes the way he always has. Here goes:

The subject of ID parallels natural investigation since the dawn of mankind. Being stuck in the middle of “history,” so to speak, doesn’t always mean that we are able to perceive ourselves in that way. That is to say that past scientific theory and method has historically outpaced religion’s acceptance of it. A certain amount of lag time seems to be reliably necessary before Deistic believers are able to digest scientific assaults to their already established answers.

But with the above in mind, I will emphasize the hazards of literally “believing” in scientific theories—Twentieth-century methodology eschews truth, as you are well aware. And without theories, flawed as they might be, what sense can data possibly make? The world is filled with what could be referred to as “data,” but they need to be organized so that humans are able to collect and understand their significance, and to even know what data to go after. Theory amounts to an organizing principle. Theory allows many different scientists to hang their hat on, so to speak, to something tangible while they continue to gather, organize and digest their data—and apply their labors to solving real-world problems.

Does it really matter whether or not a theory is true in every literal respect, as long as the theory serves a useful function?

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Philosophy may in no way interfere with the actual use of language; it can in the end only describe it. For it cannot give it any foundations either. It leaves everything as it is.
Ludwig Wittgenstein

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Posted: 13 June 2005 05:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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P.S., Champ:

If you’re going to pray for me, please pray that my business allows me to make enough money for a retirement before I turn 60.

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Philosophy may in no way interfere with the actual use of language; it can in the end only describe it. For it cannot give it any foundations either. It leaves everything as it is.
Ludwig Wittgenstein

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Posted: 13 June 2005 07:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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[quote author=“homunculus”]Nice words, Kurt….but (I) still disagree with you.

I agree with you…except on where you disagree with me…which is what?

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Posted: 14 June 2005 02:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
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[quote author=“Kurt Kawohl”][quote author=“homunculus”]Nice words, Kurt….but (I) still disagree with you.

I agree with you…except on where you disagree with me…which is what?

Kurt, sorry for the lack of clear writing on my part. It’s Champ who I still disagree with.

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Philosophy may in no way interfere with the actual use of language; it can in the end only describe it. For it cannot give it any foundations either. It leaves everything as it is.
Ludwig Wittgenstein

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Posted: 14 June 2005 05:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
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Kurt, I read Dawkins stuff on ID, and thought the same you did.

ID accepts evolution.  However, ID is still no science.  It’s about as much science as a winning “system” for Vegas. 

I have noticed that when watching some shows, things are said like “ability” “appendage” “skin” ect were “developed” by the creature to deal with certain enviroments, or that a creature “developed” the ability to “exploit” a food source.

This way we handle language when referring to evolution would imply we already think there was an intelligence behind it.  Why do we do this?

People like Champ really haven’t read ID “theory” as you can tell, since ID accepts both the old age of the earth, and evolution.

But ID is still as unproven and untested as string theory.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch of spirituality, yes I think we have to accept that all people possess a sense of this to some degree or another and that dogma for the most part either destroys the spirituality, as in the case of people that commit horrendous crimes and seek redemption after (The Godfather, Part 1) or it destroys reason, as evidenced here.

The “Creator” Intelligent Design is looking for certainly has nothing to do with the “God” of the Bible IMO.

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Posted: 14 June 2005 05:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]  
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Also, ID proponents do nothing that moves science forward in any way. An actual scientist is trying to solve problems and answer questions. When he finds himself unable to understand something, he tries something else, consults colleagues, reads literature, etc. Attributing a temporarily unsolvable problem to ID is another way of simply giving up.

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Philosophy may in no way interfere with the actual use of language; it can in the end only describe it. For it cannot give it any foundations either. It leaves everything as it is.
Ludwig Wittgenstein

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Posted: 14 June 2005 06:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]  
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[quote author=“Iisbliss”] ID accepts evolution.  However, ID is still no science.  It’s about as much science as a winning “system” for Vegas…..But ID is still as unproven and untested as string theory…..The “Creator” Intelligent Design is looking for certainly has nothing to do with the “God” of the Bible IMO.

Actually, there have been several winning “systems” in Vegas.

IMO, the Intelligent Designer is composed of pure energy, the spiritual existence in another (4th?) dimension; a spiritual, progressive, intellectual unity of spirit or soul. Energy always exists in another, unseen dimension; we can only see the result of energy.

Man’s spirit is energy which invigorates and energizes man, a force, essence; energy can transfer from one source to another. The remainder of man is physical substance.

Eternity is timelessness, (science does not dispute this) infinity, measurableness. Many people, myself included, have testified to having had their spirit interact with this spiritual eternity. Will science ever be able to proove this?

Inspiration is the reception of knowledge, an influence on the mind or
consciousness. Millions of radio waves traverse our world daily via being
transmitted and received. Is the mind possibly able to receive inspiration
from a spiritual source and can the mind possibly transmit its data into
another dimension? Logic disputes this.

If we look at some hypothetical questions:

1. Science and psychology is an attempt at logic, but does the analytical approach more
often produce or stifle creativity?

A. example: scientists 200 years ago would have completely rejected the
ideas that:
1. several tons of steel (an airplane) could stay afloat in the air.
2. Electricity could be harnessed.
3. Radio waves could be sent around the world.
4. Man would walk on the moon.
5. Man would travel to other planets.
6. Machines could analyze data and correctly store it better than man.

2. Will man 200 years from today be able to:
1. Harness the power of the atom to produce all of its required energy?
2. Disassemble and reassemble atoms into another area?
3. Find a mode of travel faster than light?
4. understand the string theory, black holes, the existence of several
dimensions?
5. Utilize thought transference?

Today, over 100 planets are known outside our solar system. There are
billions of stars with numerous solar systems. Our knowledge of the universe
is in its infancy. We have learned recently that up to 95% of the Universe
is made of a type of matter or energy that we cannot see nor understand.
Gravity may ripple across the universe in waves, and certain cosmic rays,
atomic particles moving at near light speed, possess an energy far greater
than that which can be explained by modern physics.

Will we eventually be able to prove the existence of spiritual interaction
with another dimension? I can only relate to my spiritual experiences and
testify to their accuracy. It was like a burst of energy…an immensely
puzzling and physically draining experience; the mind then attempted to
reassemble this interaction, wherefrom I perceived was how most religions
were started. Was this an illusion or an interaction with a cosmic spiritual
consciousness; a united spiritual intelligence, God? You will have your
opinions and I have mine.
See  

If the medieval practices and the medieval beliefs of Christianity, Judaism and Islam that are based on superstitions were eliminated, then we could start building a rational and logical belief system that is based on truth and an understanding of spirituality. This is the value of truthfulness and rationality.

Kurt

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Posted: 15 June 2005 06:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]  
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Yes, I think I understand you.

But even if you accept the idea of another level of energy called consciousness for lack of a better word, that is both the beginning and byproduct of life, then you still have no personality, nor god, but just another impersonal “force” like electro-magnetism.  Although this could explain the interconnected feeling called “spirituality” and some other phenomena.

You stilll come back to the self-awareness of human beings that is the crux of the debate, this board, and the creator of all religions.

Everyone will interpret these experiences in the conceptual framework they were taught too, that is for sure.

For instance, I recently saw a show about UFO visitations, that compared them to the medieval stories of “succubi” and “devils” that visited people in the night.  Apparently there is a physological cause to these “night terrors”, but what was fascinating is how they were “interpreted” over the centuries.

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