Sam Harris

[quote author=“Carstonio”]. . .
Do you see evangelical Christianity and evangelical atheism as different? I see the difference as this - atheism doesn’t make demands on people, such as defining them in a negative way, or requiring their obedience, or predicting ghastly punishments if they don’t obey.

Worthy goals for both sides to attempt to live up to.

[quote author=“homunculus”]Worthy goals for both sides to attempt to live up to.

I think the Christian side doesn’t care about those goals. If that side’s something is really of “great value,” then why threaten people with hell if they find great value in something else?

[quote author=“Carstonio”][quote author=“homunculus”]Worthy goals for both sides to attempt to live up to.

I think the Christian side doesn’t care about those goals. If that side’s something is really of “great value,” then why threaten people with hell if they find great value in something else?

When someone tells you “it’s not the money, but the principle”, it’s the money. :D

People pay thru the nose for cocaine. :D :D

That is to say, evangelists are drug dealers.

[quote author=“Salt Creek”]That is to say, evangelists are drug dealers.

Putting aside the Billy Grahams and Fulton Sheens, what motivates average believers to evangelize? I seem to harbor a strange kind of Pollyannaism, wondering if believers will ever be content to have their own personal relationships with their own gods and leave everyone else alone.

[quote author=“Carstonio”]what motivates average believers to evangelize?

Telling other people what they “should” do is a drug. They are not only pushers, but addicts as well. Frankr is your best case-in-point.

[quote author=“Salt Creek”]Telling other people what they “should” do is a drug. They are not only pushers, but addicts as well.

So it’s all about craving power over people.

I think it’s vital to emphasize the difference between evangelistic religion and atheism that may seem evangelistic. I want a credible answer whenever someone says, “You’re objecting to religious people telling you what to believe, but you’re doing the same thing they are.”

[quote author=“Carstonio”]So it’s all about craving power over people.

No, it’s all about being in possession of the facts, and about what one “should” do, given that one is in possession of the facts, and about just what is, and is not, a fact.

It’s not about how you fall (which is natural, if there is nothing between you and the next thing in the direction known as “down”), it’s about how you land. If you do it right, you never encounter anything. This is called “orbiting the primary”. But it is not exactly “freedom”.

[quote author=“Salt Creek”]No, it’s all about being in possession of the facts, and about what one “should” do, given that one is in possession of the facts, and about just what is, and is not, a fact.

Wouldn’t that translate into a craving for security? Other than having power over others, I can’t think of any other reason to desire such a possession of those facts.

[quote author=“Salt Creek”]It’s not about how you fall (which is natural, if there is nothing between you and the next thing in the direction known as “down”), it’s about how you land. If you do it right, you never encounter anything. This is called “orbiting the primary”. But it is not exactly “freedom”.

Would you explain your metaphor?