It sounds well intended. Are you part of an organization? Have you ran these ideas past influential men or women? Right now, what I read from you is this is kind of grass roots, pull up by ones bootstaps sort of momentum and those are the most difficult ones to get above the drowning tides of beaurocratic insanity.
It’s been about 18 months now since I started thinking about the political changes needed to improve the situation of ordinary people and the nation. No, I haven’t tried to approach influential individuals or organization. I am trying to test my ideas for the first time now on this forum. I am not a part of any organization.
Every year I receive in my mail numerous solicitations with ideas how to address this or another issue. I haven’t received a single solicitation yet that would not contain a suggestion to support the noble cause with my dollars. I am disgusted with it, especially with those initiatives where my money is intended to be used for lobbying. I will do whatever I can to avoid such approach. If I start an organization I will do whatever I can not to collect membership fees.
The only exception to the prevailing strategy I described above were delivered by the grassroot organizations. Recently it was from the Organic Movement concerned about the pressure from the industry to alter the criteria of what passes as organic.
The way I see it, all traditional ways of campainging in America try to win something for the small guy playing the money game. But to me it is obvious that the money collected from the small guys are no match to the money the big boys are trowing into the game.
In addition I was pleasantly surprised to realize how powerful and effective the grassroot movements can be. If you have time visit the website http://www.journeytoforever.org to get a glimpse of what is going on in this department. Another good example of grassroot movement strategy at its best is the Spanish (what a coincidence) success with the Mondragon cooperative.
Another fact I observed is that the big guys are not powerful at all. All they have is money. As they say you cannot eat money. Their power depends on enslaving the little guy and make him dependent on the money for survival. From this perspective taxes are the first instrument in the game of wealth distribution all free market economies and their governments are playing. However, it is just the opposite of what the liberals are accused. The real wealth redistribution is to take money away from the little guy and give it to the wealthy. In my opinion taxes are mostly (90+%) needed to support the system in the free market economies so only those who benefit from the system (read wealthy) should pay them. From their perspective taxes are nothing more than the business investment. But there is more to the picture, much more. Your problem with the bill for your child treatment shouldn’t enrage you. Be prepared for more when your child goes to college. Now the question is why do you have to pay for your child education? Will your child benefit from the education? No, the primary beneficiary will be your child employer unless, of course, your child decides to study Greek literature or some other esoteric subject exclusively for his own enjoyment. To add the insult to the injury imagine that when your child graduates from college majoring in computer programming Microsoft and Google will say, sorry kid, we decided to outsource the programming jobs to India but you can always make yourself more employable by picking the Business Administration.
Ok, enough ranting. Now I want to tell you that I am not a crazy communist bent on destroying capitalism. Private business of small to medium range will always be needed. Why small business? Because the talents to make small improvements are wide-spread and only in the small business those talents can be fully employed. Somewhere in the journeytoforever website you will find reports of engineers in the small shops all over the world in the third world countries showing great ingenuity in adopting old cars to the needs of locals. Interesting part in this website demonstrates how some traditional tools used in agriculure proved to be far superior to the tools made by big manufacturers. Those traditional tools the website is talking about are the results of centuries of small improvements where one blacksmith would take on and improve a little what his predecessor did.
Many people believe that we owe to the big corporations great technological advancements. It is a myth. The big car manufacturers scream foul when the fuel efficiency, or alternative fuels are debated and suggestions to raise the standards are made. Well, when the gas prices skyrocketed a few months ago I learned that in Poland you could get your car converted to biofuel in small shops and for a very reasonable price.
I have a friend who has been very successful in computer business. He started several corporations but when I last talked to him he said he no longer does it. “If I start another corporation I can make another 10 million dollars in a couple of years. But with the money I have now it would make no sense. I can do much better investing my money”.
When a corporation grows the dynamics of what drives it change dramatically and I doubt if the changes I see benefit the nation in any way. There are numerous signs of decay. The ultimate goal is to kill the competition and gain monopoly, or at least accept some equilibrium between the few big guys and shut all the doors of opportunity to anybody else. There are also signs of internal decay. Managers stop thinking about making the corporation better and start fighting among themselves for power. People are promoted based on politics and usually those showing loyalty to the boss win the race. The negative selection process replaces the positive one and like in evolution the probabilities of the process win in the end.
Now, we owe the progress and really big technological breakthroughs not to the corporations but to the very few most talented individuals, geniuses. However, the place for those geniuses to thrive is not your typical corporation. The Bell Labs was a tremendous success but at the end AT&T didn’t know what to do with it and managed to waste the tremendous intellectual capital in no time.
The place for geniuses to thrive is an institution. It doesn’t take a genius to run an institution because a good and mature institution runs itself. But then again this post is getting too long so let’s stop at this point.
Sorry about the costly treatment of alergic reaction of your son. I guess with the kid you had no option. However, if you ever suffer from allergy case try Ginkgo Biloba. The magadose is necessary, at least 240 mg (4 regular size pills, buy only guaranteed potency). Much cheaper than the treatment in the doctor’s office. Add megadoses of Vitamin C for better results. Repeat every few hours. They say bee polen works as a prevention.
It is interesting that I managed to get rid of my seasonal allergies (September-October, I guess ragweed) by changing my diet. I don’t know exactly what specific changes did the trick but I am glad I am allergies free now.
If you go running off to try herbal cures for allergies, I will personally smack you. If Dr. Orr can give us something besides the usual Peruvian Jungle Medical Journal article to back up any claims, we’ll listen. As usual, look before leaping, or you’ll end up chasing that Amway again. A quote out of WebMD:
For example, Pitetti says, “ginkgo biloba probably should never be used in a kid. It can prevent blood from normally clotting. We know it has that side effect in adults, but it can be worse in kids.”
I’ve seen a serious allergic reaction to ginkgo biloba itself.
Just curious what nerve did I hit with my message to cause an epileptic reaction in you? Are you on the payroll of the big pharma? If this is the case don’t pretend to be friend with Noggin, they just delivered to him $1,300 bill and he is still foaming at his mouth as the result.
For your information peanuts can cause serious allergic reaction too, even death. Aspirin alone causes hundreds of deaths every year. Do you remember the story about the cough syrup that killed a child? They put dad in jail for failing to read the fine print on the syrup label “not for children younger than 12”. I don’t know how you make your choices but I wouldn’t touch that syrup even as I am many years older than 12. And even if pharma endorses it.
Where is your blind spot regarding rational thinking? Are you like those characters from Sam Harris book who are otherwise rational and peacful people until the conversation turns into God and religion?
What exactly is wrong or suspicious with my recommending Ginkgo Biloba for allergies? I don’t sell it and it happens that it helped me with keeping my allergies under control. It also happened that I tried Ginkgo Biloba on recommendation of someone who was also helped.
I operate on quite rational premise that human bodies share many similarities and what is good for my friend might as well be good for me. The cost of trying is under $10, certainly better than $1,300 bill, don’t you agree? If you lose your mind just thinking that someone may use such unscientific approach aka anecdotal evidence you are laughable. I think that medical establishment (sorry, I will not use the word science because those guys didn’t earn the title) with their ten commendments of what is and what isn’t scientific are bunch of thieves and charlatans. They killed Jacqeline Kennedy, king Hussein, and several other rich celebrities who expected that “expert” from the Mayo clinic would cure them from cancer. Well, those experts in the past falsified studies trying character assasination on Dr. Linus Pauling for his papers on Vitamin C.
FDA on orders from pharma fought every alternative cancer remedy ever tried in America, put doctors in jail, and condemned patients to certain death by cutting short their treatments. Yet, every one of those therapies worked to some degree. Do you know the stories of cancer survivors who testified before Congress? Those cured not by the Mayo clinic but by the alternative cancer treatments abroad? Pleading and begging the Congress to open the alternative cures option to American citizens?
You reaction to my note on Ginkgo Biloba is on the same level as the statement by Pitetti, whom you quote. My advice to Pitetti is to stop mumbling about the ordinary herb and try to save the reputation of modern medicine by addressing some real problems. Like medical mistakes, unnecessary invasive treatments, overbilling patients, harbouring in hospitals super bugs resistance to all known antibiotics.
Since herbs kill nobody those who try to demonize them resort to really strange rhetoric. Saw Palmetto should be regulated. Why? Is it dangerous? Yes, it interferes with certain tests doctors use to determine the healt of prostate. Some reason, really.
Only in America I learned to distrust the medical profession. Back in Poland, where I grew up, I trusted that doctor would share with me his best unbiased opinion. Sometimes it would be drug, sometimes surgery, sometimes a simple herb. The biggest tragedy in America with that respect is that unbiased honest opinion on medical questions is unavailable. I don’t trust the herb pushers and I don’t trust doctors, either. To the great extent thanks to the people like yourself. Thank you very much.
Thomas, you started it. All I did was urge Noggin to look into things before he lept in with eyes closed, and to take a look at the data before he did anything that might adversly affect his or his children’s health. You have a problem with that? I specifically urged you to come up with scientific evidence that ginkgo biloba has any anti-allergenic properties. Instead you impune me for being part of your grand conspiracy to keep miracle herbs off the market. Do you see how that makes you sound? ” Do what I say, don’t ask questions. It worked for a friend of mine. Dr. Rod is the anti-healer.” Sounds like a religious approach to me; it sure isn’t rational or scientific.
Thomas, Noggin, and anybody else who might happen onto this thread, let me say a few things. I can still be misguided at times, but if there is anything that I feel I can offer this group, it is the benefit of twenty years of experience practicing general medicine in this country. With around 4000 patient encounters every year, I have seen a lot and heard a lot of stories. Every one involved some sort of decision to treat based on risk vs. benefit, whether it was a flu shot or anticoagulants in intensive care. Some patients and colleagues inspired me tremendously but we’ll ignore them because it’s more the irrational that is our focus here. Specifically:
What exactly is wrong or suspicious with my recommending Ginkgo Biloba for allergies? I don’t sell it and it happens that it helped me with keeping my allergies under control. It also happened that I tried Ginkgo Biloba on recommendation of someone who was also helped.
I operate on quite rational premise that human bodies share many similarities and what is good for my friend might as well be good for me. The cost of trying is under $10, certainly better than $1,300 bill, don’t you agree? If you lose your mind just thinking that someone may use such unscientific approach aka anecdotal evidence you are laughable.
It’s easy to make recommendations when your livelyhood is not on the line. Noggin has a serious reaction to your herb, and you can just say, Ooppps! Physicians operate on a much higher standard that requires scientific evidence for efficacy, not faith, and they’re liable to spend years in court if they don’t. Thomas, I didn’t lose my mind, but it was tragic when one of my patients went into heart failure when she took some of her neighbor’s “heart pills” and it was laughable when another woman took her husbands prostate medication because she had problems urinating too. How many penicillin type reactions do you think I’ve seen because somebody borrowed ampicillin from a friend?(“I didn’t know they were similar”). How about one cardiac arrest after “He took his brother’s blood pressure pill”. And a couple of hypertensive emergencies due to ephedra containing “energy pills”. Tell me again that what’s good for you might as well be good for your friend, and put up your retirement plan as part of the bet. And if you can find an herb that is harmless, you can also bet it is probably useless.
I think that medical establishment (sorry, I will not use the word science because those guys didn’t earn the title) with their ten commendments of what is and what isn’t scientific are bunch of thieves and charlatans. They killed Jacqeline Kennedy, king Hussein, and several other rich celebrities who expected that “expert” from the Mayo clinic would cure them from cancer. Well, those experts in the past falsified studies trying character assasination on Dr. Linus Pauling for his papers on Vitamin C.
Broad sweeping condemnations, Thomas? Not the workings of the truly rational mind. I have no info on the specific cases you mention, but indeed there are mistakes in treatment and diagnosis made. It should also be obvious to you that there are millions of suvivors of cancer, disease, and trauma who owe their lives to western medicine. And this is opposed to the misguided desperate people who go tromping off to some Mexican clinic for their miracle cures “that big pharma doesn’t want us to know about”. Funny these oppressed “healers” don’t seem to carry much malpractice insurance. Could it be that they are also not held to any standard of care? I would like to hear of one such miracle cure that works, and is not based solely on the testimonials of the gullible or the lucky. Remember, prayer works the same way…lots of testimonials. TV’s Kevin Trudeau is making a fortune selling his book fostering this giant “pharma” conspiracy. Well, read his book and find me one damn legitimate miracle cancer cure. Better yet, go to quackwatch.com and check him out. Freakin criminal used car salesman. By the way, that site might be the best piece of information I’ve ever given on TEOF threads for those of you who have any questions on possible health frauds. Reminds me of the prostate cancer I found, but the patient refused conventional therapy because he heard online that this was caused by the acidity in his body. Well, he orders the cure from this over the border quack, and tells me the pills are working. What was it? Antacids…. Maalox, by another name, to be exact. He specifically accused me of being too closeminded to new ideas and a part of the medical conspiracy. Now let’s say his neighbor has prostate cancer too, hmmm, think they should share their pills? As for Dr. Pauling, a little bit from quackwatch.com again:
Scientific fact is established when the same experiment is carried out over and over again with the same results. To test the effect of vitamin C on colds, it is necessary to compare groups which get the vitamin to similar groups which get a placebo (a dummy pill which looks like the real thing). Since the common cold is a very variable illness, proper tests must involve hundreds of people for significantly long periods of time. At least 16 well-designed, double-blind studies have shown that supplementation with vitamin C does not prevent colds and at best may slightly reduce the symptoms of a cold [5]. Slight symptom reduction may occur as the result of an antihistamine-like effect, but whether this has practical value is a matter of dispute. Pauling’s views are based on the same studies considered by other scientists, but his analyses are flawed.
16 authors all lied, huh, Thomas. Well, maybe.
FDA on orders from pharma fought every alternative cancer remedy ever tried in America, put doctors in jail, and condemned patients to certain death by cutting short their treatments. Yet, every one of those therapies worked to some degree. Do you know the stories of cancer survivors who testified before Congress? Those cured not by the Mayo clinic but by the alternative cancer treatments abroad? Pleading and begging the Congress to open the alternative cures option to American citizens?
Big bad pharma and congress. It is precisely because we have stringent rules on evidence that every Laetril pusher cannot take advantage of Americans…at least IN America. Again, give me one example of one of these cures that works better than placebo, and I’ll join your parade against the bad guys. It is much more likely that the people and congress will get all in a panic on emotional testimonial evidence and want to ban a perfectly useful drug or product that can be helpfull to millions but statistically will harm a few. Vioox and Phenphen to name two. Over ten billion dollars was set aside to pay claims on Phenphen “victims”, ignoring the millions of people who benefitted with weightloss. Is this rational? You’re right, Thomas….aspirin can kill, and would probably never get approved in today’s legal environment when word of a few complications started to cause panic.
My advice to Pitetti is to stop mumbling about the ordinary herb and try to save the reputation of modern medicine by addressing some real problems. Like medical mistakes, unnecessary invasive treatments, overbilling patients, harbouring in hospitals super bugs resistance to all known antibiotics.
I hope nobody else thinks ignoring the possible problems caused by swallowing anything, is wise.
Addressing medical mistakes….I’m all for that, just tell me how you keep humans from erring, ever. Unnecessary invasive treatments. More of a judgement call there. Let’s hope our judgements are based on science more and more, and not on false hopes, arrogant physicians, or patients’ demands to “do something”. Overbilling patients….greed sometimes, undoubtedly. Or a broken system where ERs collect only about 30 percent of their billings…makes it a whole lot more expensive for those who do pay. My father-in-law recently had his pacemaker replaced….one day in the big house…..32 thousand dollars. Don’t ask me to make sense of it. I think my car cost too much. Finally, getting rid of resistant bugs….easy….stop using antibiotics. Let’s get congress to make a law.
Since herbs kill nobody those who try to demonize them resort to really strange rhetoric.
A patently false statement. Even without a journal search….you must have heard reports of young atheletes dying from stimulant herbs?
Saw Palmetto should be regulated. Why? Is it dangerous? Yes, it interferes with certain tests doctors use to determine the healt of prostate. Some reason, really.
Well, PSA tests are used to determine if somebody needs a few thousand dollars worth of scans and biopsies. I recall you were worried about unnecessary invasive tests and misdiagnosis? Delay of cancer treatment due to patients self treating their symptoms?
Only in America I learned to distrust the medical profession. Back in Poland, where I grew up, I trusted that doctor would share with me his best unbiased opinion. Sometimes it would be drug, sometimes surgery, sometimes a simple herb. The biggest tragedy in America with that respect is that unbiased honest opinion on medical questions is unavailable. I don’t trust the herb pushers and I don’t trust doctors, either. To the great extent thanks to the people like yourself. Thank you very much.
Thomas, I will not try to disuade you of a healthy skepticism when it comes to your health. Find doctors you trust. Demand explanations and evidence if you have doubt. Just don’t let yourself off that same hook if you are treating yourself. Doubt yourself, big time. Simply throwing your money away on harmless or useless herbs is not my real concern, here. Blind faith in anything is still blind. If you feel a scientific approach to medical treatment is biased, then I have nothing more to say to you than to those who insist prayer works medical miracles. Lastly, believe me, I have seen medical mistakes and poor judgement, but I still have respect for the honest efforts of most healthcare workers. Well I could go on, and suspect I will depending on you response, but I’ll wait for comment. Christmas dinner is almost ready.
I certainly did not and do not wish to continue the fight over the trivial topic of herbs and alternative medicine. I would prefer discussing The End of Faith book and the related political questions.
However, we can continue fighting and insulting each other, if you wish, for the heck of entertainment.
Happy holidays. Regarding our short exchange of insults over the cancer cure topic I would advise you not to associate yourself too closely with Stephen Barrett from the quackwatch sham.
You asked me if I have a “rational blindspot”. I’m beginning to think…. it is that I continue to think all people can be convinced to change their mind when evidence does not support them. I now think I’m wrong, which is being more rational….right?
You and the fellows at the site you recommend simply attack the messenger. Revile the unbeliever! These are the tactics of every cult and scam I can think of. Scientology ring a bell? But where is the evidence to back your point. Thomas, you will be fair game to every reflexologist, homeopath, magnet salesman, or vibrator cure that comes down the road.
Again, give me one example of a cure or a doctor who says he has one that you feel is being kept from the American people and I’ll personally check into it. Otherwise I will have to assume you have just been blowing off steam. The only drug I can think of is RU486, and it isn’t pharma or the medical profession keeping it from the people….it’s irrational religious political appointees denying the evidence that it’s generally safe.
I feel these are not trivial points to argue. It is interesting to discuss points of religious faith, but unless religion interferes with legitimate health care there is rarely a threat to life and limb in this country. Alternative healthcare almost by definition, even if we discard that which has no real effect at all, is likely to interfere. Nevermind the billions that are wasted on it every year. Oh, I forgot, your website says that actually proves that the treatments work. So, if people are willing to spend money on my oatmeal cancer cure, it must work. Great. What herbalist is without his rhino horn…or do they realize now that one doesn’t work.
Thomas, I would also remind you that you wanted the country run by professionals. Who do you want to run the healthcare system?
The real reason I got interested in the whole reason vs. faith issue in the first place was because of the idiotic attacks on my buttons….science and healthcare. The access and cost of our healthcare system is already screwed up and doesn’t need alternative faith healing to confuse the gullible or take their money.
In case you’re wondering, I’m for a national healthcare plan.
What the heck…..does anybody else out there even care what I’ve been saying?
Thanks for responding. You asked me if I believe in conspiracy. Yes, I do and I would be a fool if I didn’t. The conspiracy we both should be concerned about are the very wheels that make the free market economy spin. A corporation would not be a corporation if it didn’t do anything in its power to maximize the profits and kill the competition. If you think that Bill Gates cared more about promoting computer literacy than the future of his company try to imagine him donating to schools Apple computers instead of the machines running on Microsoft operating system.
The big pharma was even smarter and looking farther ahead into the future. It all started in Germany, which at the turn of the 20th century had the greatest science in the world. Chemistry was about to revolutionize the world and the pharma was wisely looking into the future and started sponsoring education at the college level, including medicine.
Today every physician like yourself is trained the way big pharma wishes doctors be trained. Your entire knowledge as a physician, unless you are a surgeon or psychiatrist, is essentially the regirgutation of the Merck Manual.
If it was only about sponsoring education maybe I would be excused of going easy on the modern quackary the big pharma turned the medicine into. No, the industry evolving around chemistry of fossil fuels is the most powerful force in the modern world and it would be damned stupid if it didn’t use that power to do away with every threat to its profits. Unfortunately, among the threats to the profit ambitions of the big pharma are not only the alternative medicine but the science itself. Our dear president Bush didn’t invent ignoring science, falsifying it, or buying an expert opinion if necessary. All big names in the drug industry, Merck, Bayer, Pfeizer ... do it routinely and every time the new drug promising billions of revenue is launched.
I am familiar with Stephen Barrett and his quackwatch website. He is the guy who had the nerve to call the Nobel Prize winner Dr. Linust Pauling a quack. And this is from the guy who himself is a failed psychiatrist and who makes a living by providing an “expert” opinion against alternative practitioners in courts and instigating lawsuits against them. Do a little Google search on Stephen Barrett and his court appearances. Tim Bolen to whom I refered you in my previous post is not just a guy who attacks the messagner as you said. Tim Bolen faced Stephen Barrett in the courts and reported to us all the major defeats Stephen Barrett sufferred. Stephen Barrett is currently finished in California. He also was exposed as a fraud whose accusations and tactics bear no merit in New Zealand.
I also happen to study the quackwatch website and compare it to what Linus Pauling had to say. I hold Ph.D. in mathematics (which makes me as good an expert on medicine as any failed psychiatrist) and even if I lack in knowledge of the subject I can recognize the merit, or the lack of it, in a scientific debate. No amount of invectives and slogans you might decide to throw at me in defense of Barrett are going to change my opinion about the guy.
By the way, Linus Pauling is not the only scientist of high caliber who complained about big players from the industry falsifying science. Dr Henry Schroeder also had his share of bad luck when he wanted to study the link between drinking acidic water and the heart disease and was prevented from getting grants by the guys who were making millions of dollars installing water softening systems in our homes.
In my post I never questioned the integrity and good will of individual doctors. Similarly I never imply that Christians are bad people. It is only their religion, which is one of the most corrupted and evil belief systems. As another Nobel Price winner said: “Without religion good people would be doing good things, and bad people will be doing bad things. But it takes religion to make good people do the bad things”. Well, I don’t want to spell out what is it that makes good doctors say stupid things ...
If I was you I would be more careful when talking about science (Don’t use the God’s name in vein). I suppose it was in the name of science that researchers have been fired from Harvard when they dared to undermine the “cholesterol” theory in their studies and papers. Only to be rehabilatated some 15 years later. Here is the ugly truth. Physics, Chemistry, Biology are examples of science. Medicine is not. If medicine is science it is most corrupted of all sciences. Tell me, please, what exactly is your field of scientific expertise as a physician? Please mention anything besides prescribing drugs (I once postulated that pharmacists be allowed to compete with doctors hoping that I would get the same drugs only cheaper). It certainly is not any kind of prevention. It is not nutrition either. Do you see what am I getting into? I dare to accuse your profession of not being able to offer the public anything of value, anything that public really desires. People turn to herbs because herbs and alternative medicine provide the public with what medicine refused to do. Now, when you see your profit disappearing you are trying to kill the messenger. Just step back, take a deep breath and calmly look at your reaction on my recommending a simple herb. So much bad blood about a simple herb, which by the way happened to be well researched in Europe and Japan.
If I am wrong and you know something about nutrition I have a question for you. You must realize how bad for health the refined sugar is. Not so long ago WHO suggested that sugar should be limited to no more than 10% of healthy diet. In response, the sugar lobby in the US requested that the limit be increased to 25% and demanded that the Congress puts pressure on WHO by withdrawing funds. How is that for scientific debate? Do you think that the big pharma has better manners than the sugar lobby? If you think so you are naive. The manners, good or bad, go hand in hand with the financial and political power. You president gave you the outstanding example of how those who have power (or think they have power) should address the UN when talking on important subjects.
One more advice. Don’t talk about subjects you know nothing about. Why put down reflexology and magnet therapy when those things actually work? Have you tried them for yourself? I did. I don’t claim they replace the real medical treatment but they are excellent home remedies. Nobody in Japan laughs at reflexology, magnet therapy or drinking ionized water. Those things have been well researched and are popular with the Japanese public. Do you know why in America people like you laugh at those treatments? Because Japan has the Ministry of Health while we have the Food and Drug Administration.
.....does anybody else out there even care what I’ve been saying?
Rod, I’m sipping my morning coffee made from memory water, my magnets and crystal pyramids are in place (an arrangement designed by a certified feng shui architect), my self-actuation level is . . . wait a minute—I’m going to need to shut down my computer. The cold-fusion generator is making some terrible noises. Sorry—. . . .
[quote author=“homunculus”]Rod, I’m sipping my morning coffee made from memory water, my magnets and crystal pyramids are in place (an arrangement designed by a certified feng shui architect), my self-actuation level is . . . wait a minute—I’m going to need to shut down my computer. The cold-fusion generator is making some terrible noises. Sorry—. . . .
Very funny, homunculus, very funny.
Does Rod speak for you? I am asking because Rod left the debate and I didn’t fire all my arsenal yet.
Before I respond to more accusations of yours, let me ask you again to give me any cure or treatment based in alternative medicine that is more effective than placebo. Your Tim Bolen seems to think his clients have cures for cancer and AIDS. Where are the statistics?
Now for my responses to your new claims.
Today every physician like yourself is trained the way big pharma wishes doctors be trained. Your entire knowledge as a physician, unless you are a surgeon or psychiatrist, is essentially the regirgutation of the Merck Manual.
Among many other manuals as well. They’re all similar, and provide the up to date concensus of thought on treatments based on the science of hundreds of thousands of research papers. This modern information and flush toilets are the reason that the life expectancy of modern people is as high as it is. Your herbs had thousands of years to give the same results…they didn’t. Even granted that about 25 percent of modern meds are based on natural products….they weren’t really successful until used in a scientific way. When you get pneumonia or colitis do you want your herbalist or do you want your doctor using the Merck Manual? Are you going to put your life where your mouth is?
I am familiar with Stephen Barrett and his quackwatch website. He is the guy who had the nerve to call the Nobel Prize winner Dr. Linust Pauling a quack.
Pauling was a genius. He was also wrong about vitamin C. Sixteen studies proved it.
And this is from the guy who himself is a failed psychiatrist and who makes a living by providing an “expert” opinion against alternative practitioners in courts and instigating lawsuits against them.
Stephen Barret retired from a successful practice and now takes pleasure in debunking the frauds out there.
Tim Bolen to whom I refered you in my previous post is not just a guy who attacks the messagner as you said. Tim Bolen faced Stephen Barret in the courts and reported to us all the major defeats Stephen Barrett sufferred. Stephen Barrett is currently finished in California. He also was exposed as a fraud whose accusations and tactics bear no merit in New Zealand.
I’ve seen the info too. Give me a case where Dr Barret was proved wrong in his assertions of fraud because the alternative methods actually work.
I hold Ph.D. in mathematics (which makes me as good an expert on medicine as any failed psychiatrist) and even if I lack in knowledge of the subject I can recognize the merit, or the lack of it, in a scientific debate. No amount of invectives and slogans you might decide to throw at me in defense of Barrett are going to change my opinion about the guy.
As broad a statement of arrogance and the ignorance of inflexible faith as I could have come up with myself. Did you know mathematicians and lawyers were actually more prone to believing in pseudoscience than other fields?
In my post I never questioned the integrity and good will of individual doctors.
I believe you said we were all theives and chalatans regurgitating the Merck manual who don’t know what real science is, and are practicing the quackery learned from big Pharma. About right?
I suppose it was in the name of science that researchers have been fired from Harvard when they dared to undermine the “cholesterol” theory in their studies and papers. Only to be rehabilatated some 15 years later.
Alright, what’s your story there? Cholesterol has nothing to do with heart disease? It’s a ginseng deficiency, right?
Here is the ugly truth. Physics, Chemistry, Biology are examples of science. Medicine is not. If medicine is science it is most corrupted of all sciences.
Physics, Chemistry, and Biology help come up with answers to medical problems. The corruption comes in when alternative healers claim there is another way…“I’ve got no science, just trust me”.
Tell me, please, what exactly is your field of scientific expertise as a physician? Please mention anything besides prescribing drugs (I once postulated that pharmacists be allowed to compete with doctors hoping that I would get the same drugs only cheaper). It certainly is not any kind of prevention. It is not nutrition either. Do you see what am I getting into? I dare to accuse your profession of not being able to offer the public anything of value, anything that public really desires.
Why do I suspect that you could care less what my training was? Would a chemistry degree, four years of graduate research, four years of medical school, three years of residency training and then practice convince you that I know a little more about health than someone who got an online nutrition certificate and stated pushing ionized water? (Ionized water is bullshit, by the way) Sure, let’s let pharmacists start prescribing… they can spell Dapsone or Toprol as well as I can. Looking over the counter, they might even get lucky and actually match it to the medical problem you actually have. Thomas, you see no science in making a diagnosis, treating, and assessing results? And what about prevention? The only prevention I know of involves eating right and exercizing, as well as keeping all the bad crap you can out of your system. When this fails….my office was full of people wanting advice and treatment. Most took it, and were satisfied. Some prefered reflexology, magnets, or whatever and usually came back when the placebo effect wore off. Never did see what happened to the guy who took antacids for his prostate cancer. Cured him, I guess. I waited for years to get that lawsuit complaining that I never told him how important it was to get real treatment. Now the alternative herbal prevention is lifelong supplements, right. Probably a shorter life too, if there’s no western meds or vaccines around.
People turn to herbs because herbs and alternative medicine provide the public with what medicine refused to do
Which is what…..false hope and the promise of a panacea. Same reason they turn to religion….prayer works too, doesn’t it?
Now, when you see your profit disappearing you are trying to kill the messenger.
I made a good living and would simply love to spend time debunking all the bad science out there.
Besides tooth decay and obesity, what’s your beef with sugar?
Seems people will eat what they want no matter what WHO recommendations are. Don’t get me wrong, obesity is BAD….probably the only reasonable thing you’ve implied on this post so far.
One more advice. Don’t talk about subjects you know nothing about. Why put down reflexology and magnet therapy when those things actually work? Have you tried them for yourself? I did. I don’t claim they replace the real medical treatment but they are excellent home remedies. Nobody in Japan laughs at reflexology, magnet therapy or drinking ionized water. Those things have been well researched and are popular with the Japanese public.
You claim I know nothing about reflexology…. the belief that massaging the feet will effect the health of internal organs because the ten zones in the body are manifested by pressure points on the hands and feet. Besides the fact that there are no anatomical energy zones and all research has shown no efficacy, I have no problem with it. Japanese and other fools aside, you might as well pray that your cirrhosis goes away….it works just as well. Magnet therapy, ditto. Convince me otherwise if you have the facts. I assure you I could change my mind…which seems to be the real difference between us.
Are the Japanese still big on rhino horn or is that just the Chinese?
[quote author=“Thomas Orr”][quote author=“homunculus”]Rod, I’m sipping my morning coffee made from memory water, my magnets and crystal pyramids are in place (an arrangement designed by a certified feng shui architect), my self-actuation level is . . . wait a minute—I’m going to need to shut down my computer. The cold-fusion generator is making some terrible noises. Sorry—. . . .
Very funny, homunculus, very funny.
Does Rod speak for you? I am asking because Rod left the debate and I didn’t fire all my arsenal yet.
Regards,
Thomas Orr
Just trying to inject a little levity, Thomas. Rod and I have never met, but I’d trust him enough to hand over as much money as it took for him to diagnose and prescribe for shingles, diabetes, hypertension, etc. The list is long indeed, and I have no training and/or understanding to treat such conditions. But I know they are so horrible when left untreated that even the most powerful placebo would be unlikely to have a long-term effect. (I do realize that placebos can be extremely effective, as per billions of people seeming to benefit by acupuncture.)
As to the large Western parmaceuticals, I deplore certain aspects of them although I’d much prefer they stay in business as they are than to lose them altogether. The cost of many drugs is astounding. For instance, I take care of two kids who have seizure disorder who take Topamax. When I pick up 3 months worth of their drugs and put the package into my glove box, the real value of my car almost doubles. (Late-model Mazda.) And the New York Times recently reported that the drug companies commonly employ former-cheerleaders to act as sales reps. Certainly not illegal, but unseemly.
Other than these observations, I’m quite ignorant about what you folks are discussing, so please don’t come after me with a hammer, okay? Thanks.
Pretty amazing, Rod. The infinity water “manuracturers” are careful to make no specific health claim as they fear the wrath of the FDA. How many billions are wasted each year on crap like that. Maybe trillions.
