Souls splitting in two
Posted: 07 July 2008 11:14 AM   [ Ignore ]  
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I seem to remember in Letter to a Christian Nation, that he mentioned the apparently absurd idea of “souls splitting in two”, when he he was discussing the stem cell issue. It ran something like this: if the soul forms at conception, when two zygotes splitting in two also be two souls splitting in two.

The purpose here (obviously) is to make the entire concept of souls seem rediculous. BUt what about the stories about identical twins feeling pain when one of them is injured? I remeber I saw this in a documentary on TV years ago. One twin was living in Colorado (I think), miles from his brother when it happened.

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...it has to put into the equation: the possibility that there is no God and nothing works for the best. I don’t necessarily subscribe to that view, but I don’t know what I do subscribe to. Why do I have to have a world view? I mean, when I wrote Cujo, I wasn’t even old enough to be president. Maybe when I’m frty or forty-five, but I don’t now. I’m just trying on all these hats.
-Stephen King

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Posted: 08 July 2008 07:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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Sam also mentions that, beyond the blastocyst stage, it could also merge with another blastocyst to become one with it. So if each one had a soul, and then they merge into one, what happens to that EXTRA SOUL?

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Posted: 08 July 2008 09:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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Tad Trenton’s Ghost - 07 July 2008 03:14 PM

I seem to remember in Letter to a Christian Nation, that he mentioned the apparently absurd idea of “souls splitting in two”, when he he was discussing the stem cell issue. It ran something like this: if the soul forms at conception, when two zygotes splitting in two also be two souls splitting in two.

The purpose here (obviously) is to make the entire concept of souls seem rediculous. BUt what about the stories about identical twins feeling pain when one of them is injured? I remeber I saw this in a documentary on TV years ago. One twin was living in Colorado (I think), miles from his brother when it happened.

We were running over this ground on the Right to Life thread a couple of pages back, and none of the believers in immortal souls saw the silver lining that you’re looking for here.

The claims of twins having premonitions about some awareness of a major calamity happening to their twin, are usually used to bolster claims of ESP or some sort of psychic abilities. But, is your interpretation that the twins actually are the same person in two different bodies? That’s radical!

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Posted: 11 July 2008 11:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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What about it?

You’ve pointed to an isolated oddity, and then posited a whole raft of assumptive conclusions based on a desire to find a connection between this phenomena and the notion of souls, and further gone off on some extremely assumptive tangent about how ensoulment, twinning blastocysts, and some sort of hypothetical ‘connection’ could lead this isolated incident to be evidential of all these assumptive conjectures.

One event between twin siblings does not act as evidence for the rest without demonstrable, falsifiable evidence.

So this does not act as evidence without more evidence of back it up? Isn’t that circular reasoning?

You haven’t explained how such an “isolated oddity” like this can be explained scientifically, and in a way that would eliminate the expalination of asingle soul split before birth.

I happen to be beiased toward the existence of a “soul” “spirit”, or something of the sort actually existing. But in cases like this one, the burden of prove is on the unbeleiver.

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...it has to put into the equation: the possibility that there is no God and nothing works for the best. I don’t necessarily subscribe to that view, but I don’t know what I do subscribe to. Why do I have to have a world view? I mean, when I wrote Cujo, I wasn’t even old enough to be president. Maybe when I’m frty or forty-five, but I don’t now. I’m just trying on all these hats.
-Stephen King

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Posted: 11 July 2008 11:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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How is this event different than personal testimonies that people’s pets know when their owners die in hospital?  How is this different than testimonies of pets foretelling disasters like earthquakes, mudslides, and other natural occurences?
How does a testimony of premonition in identical twins point to ensoulment, or even split souls, and pet premonitions not indicate souls for animals?

The difference is that the other twin actually feels physical pain. He does not merely make a blind assertion that his pet can foretll death—if indeed that’s what these pet owners are doing.

Actually, I’m rather hazy on just what a “soul” is, as I’ve said before. There seems to be some psyhcic connection going on here, indicating that a spirit or soul, or whatever it is that survies death must present before birth.

You still haven’t explained just what it is that causes this, unless you’re assuming it’s just coincidence. 

BTW, I’ve added a new quote from Stephen KIng, which better explicates King’s agnosticsim (the Salt Creek quote was just a joke)KIng IS nmuch older now than when he wrote that, and (I beleive) is far closer to being a beleiving Christian nowadays than I am. He seems to have always resisted the agnostic label—but that’s really what he is, meaning he just doesn’t know. Which is the same with everybody, whether we admit it or not.

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...it has to put into the equation: the possibility that there is no God and nothing works for the best. I don’t necessarily subscribe to that view, but I don’t know what I do subscribe to. Why do I have to have a world view? I mean, when I wrote Cujo, I wasn’t even old enough to be president. Maybe when I’m frty or forty-five, but I don’t now. I’m just trying on all these hats.
-Stephen King

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Posted: 16 July 2008 03:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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I once felt pain at the same time that my wife took a bite of spaghetti. That proves that I share a soul with The Flying Spaghetti Monster. Additionally, my Shih Tzu licked his butt hole right before we had a thunderstorm. That means that my dog has ESP. After all, did Stephen King not write “Pet Cemetery?” If I can get someone to do a documentary on these phenomena, then they are true.

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Real honesty is accepting the theories that best explain the actual data even if those explanations contradict our cherished beliefs.-Scotty

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Posted: 16 July 2008 05:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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Jefe - 11 July 2008 04:04 PM

I’m not tempted to leap to any assumptive conclusions based on third hand testimony of something I’ve never witnessed, and have done no research or investigation into.  My best answer at this time is “I don’t know what causes it.”

I don’t even pay serious attention to the anecdotes, to the extent of trying to suggest that a search for further documentation would be worthwhile. The burden is on the tellers of anecdotes to explain why there is no organized research program centered around these phenomena, funded by at least a few government grants. When you look closely at the rationales provided, the tellers of anecdotes turn out to be conspiracy theorists.

I could take an interest in why tellers of anecdotes think they are interested in the anecdotes they are telling, but not only do they not know these reasons, they do not want to know.

They tell their anecdotes in public forums so people like us will pay them a little attention. That’s my theory. Well here it is. See, I’m not so heartless, after all.

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Posted: 17 July 2008 07:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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Jefe - 17 July 2008 10:35 AM

Ah, but that holds true for all of us to some extent.  We ‘socialize anonymously’ on these forums, no?

I personally do not think TTG is reachable by rational discourse on this particular subject. But yes, we should be “sociable”. I’m sure that will make everyone happier, even hopeless bliss-ninnies who have tried every other trick in the book.

[ Edited: 17 July 2008 07:51 AM by Traces Elk]
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Posted: 23 July 2008 02:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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ask you to use your methodology to describe similar anecdotes about family pets who “knew when their owner died in hospital” and demonstrated grief at the time of their (physically remote) owner’s death.

Further I’m asking you to use your methodology to explain how pets can predict natural disasters.

You should know that there are different types of alleged psychic phenomena. They are not all atributed to the same cause. Certainly there those who claim to share a psychic bond with someone who is not their twin, though they ususally share a strong emotional attachment.

  After all, did Stephen King not write “Pet Cemetery?” If I can get someone to do a documentary on these phenomena, then they are true.

Pet Semetary (the novel) is actually spelled with an “S”, because King intended it to be a child’s spelling of the word.

Jefe: I’m not tempted to leap to any assumptive conclusions based on third hand testimony of something I’ve never witnessed, and have done no research or investigation into.  My best answer at this time is “I don’t know what causes it.”

Salt Creek:  I don’t even pay serious attention to the anecdotes, to the extent of trying to suggest that a search for further documentation would be worthwhile. The burden is on the tellers of anecdotes to explain why there is no organized research program centered around these phenomena, funded by at least a few government grants. When you look closely at the rationales provided, the tellers of anecdotes turn out to be conspiracy theorists.

Jefe is correct—we simply do not know what cause these phenomena. But there is zero proof that the phenamena discussed here is not exactly what it appears to be. If there was hard scientific fact pointing to a more mundane (for lack of a better term) explanation, it would have been hurled at me long ago on this forum.

[ Edited: 23 July 2008 03:26 PM by Tad Trenton's Ghost]
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...it has to put into the equation: the possibility that there is no God and nothing works for the best. I don’t necessarily subscribe to that view, but I don’t know what I do subscribe to. Why do I have to have a world view? I mean, when I wrote Cujo, I wasn’t even old enough to be president. Maybe when I’m frty or forty-five, but I don’t now. I’m just trying on all these hats.
-Stephen King

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Posted: 28 July 2008 09:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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Ha ha ...what a funny thread;

Tad Trenton’s Ghost - 23 July 2008 06:59 PM

... there is zero proof that the phenamena discussed here

Tad Trenton’s Ghost - 07 July 2008 03:14 PM

.. I remeber I saw this in a documentary on TV years ago…

Tad Trenton’s Ghost - 23 July 2008 06:59 PM

..is not exactly what it appears to be…

Funny game:

There is zero proof that the phenamena…
..insert any crackpot idea that pops into your head…
(flying saucers/slimy ghosts/flying spaghetti monsters/god)
...is not exactly what it appears to be

I for one, know of zero proof that
there’s not a flying lasagna monster out there.

The spaghetti-monster on the other hand
is a ridiculous idea.

 

.

[ Edited: 28 July 2008 09:19 AM by Bongobongo Smith]
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Christian psychopaty:

Bruce Burleson
“.Tell me why it is wrong to rape, steal and kill….
…If I am a slaveholder in Alabama in 1860, why shouldn’t I enslave the niggers, fuck their women, and whip their children when they disobey me????
I’ll tell you why, and it is the ONLY reason why
..”

..he fears gods punishment.

Christians per definition has no moral.
They are governed by fear and fear only.

..and they don’t mind using the N-word.

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Posted: 28 July 2008 10:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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bongobongo - 28 July 2008 01:12 PM

The spaghetti-monster on the other hand
is a ridiculous idea.

The FSM (peace be upon her nutritionally balanced noodles) loves you. She is as believable as any other woo woo. Ramen.

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Real honesty is accepting the theories that best explain the actual data even if those explanations contradict our cherished beliefs.-Scotty

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Posted: 28 July 2008 12:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
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.-)


Mmmmmm.

Now imagine that two countries, let’s say
Iran and Iraq
both worshipped the GodOfHeavyItalianFood
but way back in time, they split up into the
“GodOfHeavyItalianSpaghettiFood”- and
the “GodOfHeavyItalianLasagnaFood” fraction.

They start a war, and for years they each send out
millions after millions of their inhabitants
to fight one another over the
‘true’ ingredients in GodOfHeavyItalianFood.

Each side see 1.000.000 of they population
killed, even small boys, to whom they tell
that they will go directly to heaven,
where 72 big dark-eyed Italian Big Mamma’s will feed them
pasta for all eternity, if they die for the ‘cause’.

THAT would be crazy…right?

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Christian psychopaty:

Bruce Burleson
“.Tell me why it is wrong to rape, steal and kill….
…If I am a slaveholder in Alabama in 1860, why shouldn’t I enslave the niggers, fuck their women, and whip their children when they disobey me????
I’ll tell you why, and it is the ONLY reason why
..”

..he fears gods punishment.

Christians per definition has no moral.
They are governed by fear and fear only.

..and they don’t mind using the N-word.

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