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Islam was a failed attempt to renew Judaism
Posted: 21 September 2008 02:49 PM   [ Ignore ]  
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Much of Islam was borrowed from Judaism and was probably an attempt to renew Judaism in the face of the perceived Christian heresy. In his pre-prophet days, Muhammad was a ‘Hanif’, a member of a sect claiming spiritual descent from Abraham. Several Arab tribes had adopted Judaism of some form, although most Arab religion was polytheistic.

Note the close similarity between the Shahada (‘I bear witness that there is no God but Allah and I bear witness that Muhammad is his prophet’) and the Shema (‘Hear O Israel, the Lord is God, the Lord is One’).

Muslim dietary laws (halal) are identical to the Jewish (kosher). Halal food may be substituted when a kosher meal is not available, and vice versa.

In both religions figurative representations are banned.

Both Orthodox Jews and devout Muslims prefer the unshaved beard. Jews and Muslims wear skullcaps.

Mosques, like synagogues, separate male and female worshippers. Women are not regarded very highly in either faith.

The Jewish Sabbath begins on Friday evening. Islam has no real Sabbath but Friday is the day when people go to the mosque and hear the imam or mullah preach a sermon.

Sharia Law operates like Rabbinical Talmudic Law. Sharia courts are essentially the same as Judaic Beit Din courts. Both Judaism and Islam might be best described as legal systems as much as religions.

Islam follows an ancient (Abrahamic and later Mosaic) tradition of holy war and murder in the name of a god.

Koranic study, like Talmudic study, is intense. Women are not encouraged to study scripture. Muslim students at madrassa schools sway back and forth reciting the Koran just as Jewish students sway back and forth reciting the Torah at the yeshiva.

Burial practices are similar as well. The actual rites are simple. Muslims, like orthodox Jews, inter the body very quickly after death.

Formerly, all three monotheistic religions forbade usury. Christianity gave this prohibition up in the 1500s, and Jews can practice all the usury they want with non-Jews, but Islamic banking still holds to the non-usurious model, though it has various ways of getting round that.

Both Jews and Muslims are quite exclusive, essentially regarding those who do not practice their true religion as heathens at best and cattle/goyim sub-humans at worst.

One of many famous stories about Muhammad concerns an attempted poisoning by a Jewess. After this, not to mention the consistently unrelenting and often bitter rejections by the Jews, he finally gave up on converting them.

Muslims were then told to face Mecca for prayer, where previously they faced Jerusalem. 

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Posted: 21 September 2008 04:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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mesomorph - 21 September 2008 06:49 PM

Both Jews and Muslims are quite exclusive, essentially regarding those who do not practice their true religion as heathens at best and cattle/goyim sub-humans at worst.

Given the above statement and that cattle an are acceptable food to the three middle eastern religions, do any of these religions expressly prohibit the eating of humans?  Assuming the kill was kosher/halal and done by someone else, thus getting around other strictures.

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Posted: 21 September 2008 04:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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mesomorph - 21 September 2008 06:49 PM

Much of Islam was borrowed from Judaism and was probably an attempt to renew Judaism in the face of the perceived Christian heresy.

You’re on to something here, although it’s been expressed before. Islam is not an improvement on Christianity, but a throwback to the legalism of the Torah. Jesus tried to move humanity away from legalism and toward love/grace/forgiveness. This is unacceptable to religionists, who want bright-line rules for everything, and can’t bear the thought of people actually being free.

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Posted: 25 September 2008 05:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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Bruce Burleson - 21 September 2008 08:53 PM

the thought of people actually being free.

There’s no way I can let you get away with that!  Freedom from what?  Christianity takes the harsh legalistic rules away and replaces them with personal guilt.

May you be reminded that Christianity is currently at the forefront of holding down the gays and actively preventing their enjoyment of the freedoms you profess to have, not to mention ignoring the 14th Amendment, but then cherry picking is an art perfected by the religious.  I know you feel gay marriage is OK, but give us a break if you think you speak for all Christianity.  Religion of any sort is a prison and changing faiths is like getting a new boss at the same job you’ve always hated.

Christianity doesn’t protect or offer freedom, as a lawyer you know it is the Bill of Rights and the Constitution that protect the freedom to be religious.  No religion is more powerful than the secular document which forms the structure of American society.

Forgive the hijack, Mesomorph.  Carry on.

[ Edited: 26 September 2008 12:19 AM by Skipshot]
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Posted: 26 September 2008 03:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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Skipshot - 25 September 2008 09:07 PM

Forgive the hijack

I forgive you. What Bruce actually said was: ‘Religionists can’t bear the thought of people being free.’ I think he includes many of his co-religionists.

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Posted: 26 September 2008 07:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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No religion wants people to be free because being forced to follow a religion is not freedom.  At least the Jews consider their religion an exclusive club that doesn’t take anyone who asks.  If one wants to put oneself in Jewish shackles the Jews make it difficult.  Christianity and Islam, on the other hand, demand one joins their club under pain of ostracism and discrimination in this life and eternal damnation in the next.

It takes a secular document to offer and protect freedom, which, incidentally, provides Bruce’s livelihood.  That’s why I unloaded both barrels on Bruce.

[ Edited: 26 September 2008 07:50 PM by Skipshot]
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Posted: 27 September 2008 02:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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Bruce Burleson - 21 September 2008 08:53 PM
mesomorph - 21 September 2008 06:49 PM

Much of Islam was borrowed from Judaism and was probably an attempt to renew Judaism in the face of the perceived Christian heresy.

You’re on to something here, although it’s been expressed before. Islam is not an improvement on Christianity, but a throwback to the legalism of the Torah. Jesus tried to move humanity away from legalism and toward love/grace/forgiveness. This is unacceptable to religionists, who want bright-line rules for everything, and can’t bear the thought of people actually being free.

I don’t mean to take this discussion off-course, but Bruce, it is unfair and inacurate to characterize Jesus’ message as being one of love/forgiveness.  It is too simplistic.  Jesus’ message was ultimately about subjugation and submission.  Even though some of Jesus’ ethics are indeed admirable, Jesus’ ministry was not really about how one should live; rather it was about submitting to him or else spend an eternity of being tortured.  So, while I do agree that some of Jesus’ ethical ideas are an improvement upon Judaism, Jesus is not someone who sought to set us free.  The character of Jesus seeks to subjugate.  Not once did Jesus say that we have the freedom to believe as we wish.  Not once did he say that we ought to have freedom of religion.  But he did say that those who do not submit to him are to be slain before him.  And then there is the whole issue of the Book of Revelation…  So, let’s not pretend that Jesus was some great liberator.  He was a liberator in the same way the communists were liberating the Eastern European countries from fascism.  He removed one totalitarian dictatoship and replaced it with his own. 

I agree with your description of religionists.  Some people like the order created by harsh, iron-fist dictatorships.  Just the other day my dad was complaining about how somebody stole his shorts from the laundry room.  He said that in Saudi Arabia a thief, if caught, has his hand cut off.  That is the way to make sure most people will not steal.  I asked him “Is this how you want to live?”  He said “Yes!”  I don’t believe he meant it, but I do think that to some people this idea is appealing.  They would rather have order and srtucture than worry about whether their neighbors have one hand or two.  I suspect that Islam, with its harshness, with its severity, served the purpose of creating a rigid structure and order for the ancient Arab society.

Oh, man, it’s 3 AM.  I have lost all hope of producing any profound thoughts until I get some sleep.  Good “night”.

Rami

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Posted: 27 September 2008 02:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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Hmm. There are many ways in which Bruce’s brand of Christianity is conducive to a saner world than the one we have, even with the freedoms guaranteed by the US constitution which, as we see currently, allows unregulated capitalism to destabilise the world economy.

BBC (Bruce’s Brand of Christianity) in placing compassion before personal gain, works towards a fairer, more just world. I am not advocating it, obviously, I’m an atheist, but I am saying that one man’s philosophy, however non-rational it may be, would work better than a system which is even less rational when taken to its ultimate extreme.

Financial markets have to be regulated with something like the core values of BBC, not those of the Ted Haggard version, otherwise you just get boom, bust, destruction of resources and finally complete collapse of the global ecosystem. (Which is of course attractive to the millennial idiots until it starts to affect them personally.)

Of course, BBC has never worked at the macro level. As GK Chesterton said, it’s never even been tried*. But the extent to which it supports restraint, conscience and respect for all life is the extent to which I support it.

*As Idries Shah said, ‘Might I enquire: When do we start?’

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Posted: 27 September 2008 03:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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Rami - 27 September 2008 06:48 AM

The character of Jesus seeks to subjugate.  Not once did Jesus say that we have the freedom to believe as we wish.  Not once did he say that we ought to have freedom of religion. But he did say that those who do not submit to him are to be slain before him.

Is that in the Armenian translation? I don’t recall reading anything like that.

Rami - 27 September 2008 06:48 AM

And then there is the whole issue of the Book of Revelation…  So, let’s not pretend that Jesus was some great liberator.  He was a liberator in the same way the communists were liberating the Eastern European countries from fascism.  He removed one totalitarian dictatoship and replaced it with his own.

Like Marx you mean. In the sense that he wrote Stalin’s Collected Works and The Thoughts of Chairman Mao.

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Posted: 01 October 2008 11:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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Actually mesomorph, your entire thesis is like the rest of your thoughts on Islam - a load of half-truths, GOP propaganda and barely adulterated crap.

It’s well-known that Mohammed spent a lot of time among Christians and was strongly influenced by the exchange. His “Judaism” is downright Christian - Jesus was the Messiah. Jews have their savior, so they need to convert and be completed.

The emphasis on life after death and the strong connection to the person of the prophet or messiah are completely at odds with the Judaism of the day. He wasn’t Trinitarian, but many Christians in that part of the world weren’t.

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Posted: 01 October 2008 02:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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telner - 01 October 2008 03:49 PM

....

It’s well-known that Mohammed spent a lot of time among Christians and was strongly influenced by the exchange. His “Judaism” is downright Christian - Jesus was the Messiah…

I’m not sure I understand you post. It’s a bit…er…unclear.

But; No; Jesus is NOT the Messiah, according
to Mo and the quran.

...and Yes; mesomorph is right;
large chuncks of the quran is stolen from
the torah.

[ Edited: 01 October 2008 02:21 PM by Bongobongo Smith]
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Christian psychopaty:

Bruce Burleson
“.Tell me why it is wrong to rape, steal and kill….
…If I am a slaveholder in Alabama in 1860, why shouldn’t I enslave the niggers, fuck their women, and whip their children when they disobey me????
I’ll tell you why, and it is the ONLY reason why
..”

..he fears gods punishment.

Christians per definition has no moral.
They are governed by fear and fear only.

..and they don’t mind using the N-word.

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Posted: 01 October 2008 03:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
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telner - 01 October 2008 03:49 PM

GOP propaganda

I don’t know what your post is trying to convey, it’s rather incoherent. But GOP? Are you referring to the US Republican party by any chance? I am about as far from that political leaning as it’s possible to get and still have English as my native tongue.

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Posted: 01 October 2008 04:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
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bongobongo - 01 October 2008 06:19 PM

But; No; Jesus is NOT the Messiah, according
to Mo and the quran.

I thought that Muslims accepted Jesus as “the Messiah,” just not the “Son of God.”  But correct me if I’m wrong.

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Posted: 01 October 2008 07:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]  
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Not speaking from authority, Muslims consider Jesus a prophet along the lines of Abraham, Moses, et. al.  Only Christians believe the messiah has already come.

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Posted: 02 October 2008 01:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]  
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Bruce Burleson - 01 October 2008 08:51 PM
bongobongo - 01 October 2008 06:19 PM

But; No; Jesus is NOT the Messiah, according
to Mo and the quran.

I thought that Muslims accepted Jesus as “the Messiah,” just not the “Son of God.”  But correct me if I’m wrong.

Yes and no.
Some but only some translations call him ‘messiah’(*)
while others do not call him messiah.
((*)but he isn’t really, at least not in the christian sense:
See this on messiah in islam: CLICK where Jesus is decribed as
messiah’s ‘helper’)


4:171
“...O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was a messenger of GOD, and His word that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. You shall not say, “Trinity.” You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one god. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master...”

Here’s another translation: (YUSUFALI)

“...O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not “Trinity” : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs...”

and he is sometimes described as just one of the guys:

4:163
Lo! We inspire thee as We inspired Noah and the prophets after him, as We inspired Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and Jesus and Job and Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and as We imparted unto David the Psalms..” 


He was a messenger of allah and he wasn’t crucified

4:157
“..That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not...”

...not the son of god/allah. Jesus just came into
being cause….erh….allah says so.
If you believe Jesus was the son
of god/allah; dooooom awaits you:

19:34 Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt.   
19:35 It befitteth not (the Majesty of) Allah that He should take unto Himself a son. Glory be to Him! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.
19:36 And lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord. So serve Him. That is the right path.
19:37 The sects among them differ: but woe unto the disbelievers from the meeting of an awful Day

 

A hadith tells what Jesus’s job is:
(and what he looks like. He’s red-haired (?!?))
Sunnan Abu Dawud 37:4310 says:

  “Narrated Abu Hurayrah: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (peace be upon him). He will descend (to the earth). When you see him, recognise him: a man of medium height, reddish hair, wearing two light yellow garments,
(see photo of the islamic Jesus below)
looking as if drops were falling down from his head though it will not be wet. He will fight for the cause of Islam. He will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizyah. God will perish all religions except Islam. He will destroy the Antichrist and will live on the earth for forty years and then he will die. The Muslims will pray behind him….........................blahblahblahblah..”

[ Edited: 02 October 2008 02:28 AM by Bongobongo Smith]
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Christian psychopaty:

Bruce Burleson
“.Tell me why it is wrong to rape, steal and kill….
…If I am a slaveholder in Alabama in 1860, why shouldn’t I enslave the niggers, fuck their women, and whip their children when they disobey me????
I’ll tell you why, and it is the ONLY reason why
..”

..he fears gods punishment.

Christians per definition has no moral.
They are governed by fear and fear only.

..and they don’t mind using the N-word.

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Posted: 02 October 2008 02:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]  
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mesomorph - 21 September 2008 06:49 PM

Much of Islam was borrowed from Judaism

Ohh yes.

The quran:
3:50
“..And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me...”


.

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Christian psychopaty:

Bruce Burleson
“.Tell me why it is wrong to rape, steal and kill….
…If I am a slaveholder in Alabama in 1860, why shouldn’t I enslave the niggers, fuck their women, and whip their children when they disobey me????
I’ll tell you why, and it is the ONLY reason why
..”

..he fears gods punishment.

Christians per definition has no moral.
They are governed by fear and fear only.

..and they don’t mind using the N-word.

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