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Posted: 02 November 2008 10:41 PM   [ Ignore ]  
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Are there any Muslims here ?  Actually this article is for anybody although having an Islamic Muslim read it might be more interesting. We should be entertained at his/her attempt to talk his way out of this one.., and others like it ...tell us all about it , and start with saying “It’s a beautiful religion “

Mogadishu, Somalia :


Rape Victom ,13,Stoned to Death “



A thirteen year old who said that she had been raped was stoned to death in Somalia after being accused of adultery by Islamic militants, a human rights group said.


Dozens of men stoned Aisha Ibrahim Duhulow to death Monday in a stadium packed with 1000 spectators in the Southern port city of Kismayo Amnesty International , and Somalia media reported, citing witnesses


The Islamic militia in charge of Kismayo accused her of adultery after she reported that three men raped her, the rights group said. “


It is so easy to lose faith in human beings when I realize that there are those still living in this day and age who are so barbaric . Makes a person want to vomit . And it is hard to forget . On second thought ,maybe it is better if we don’t forget .

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Posted: 03 November 2008 01:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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Dee - 03 November 2008 03:41 AM

Are there any Muslims here ?

Dee, see if you can find mansoor531 and jack shooter. They can justify, er, explain, er, drive you bat-shit crazy with their “defenses” of this action.

See if you can get one of them to give you a firm definition of rape. I tried this once and failed, much to my dismay. I’d be interested to see if either of them have a concise and morally defensible explanation now. Of course, first you’re going to have to come to agreement with them on such terms as “concise”, “morally defensible”, “explanation”, “now” and “and”.

That said - I’m backing away. I’ve filed this whole topic under “not worth getting tangled in”. I wish you better luck.

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Posted: 03 November 2008 03:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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Everyone present at that stadium deserves to be shot.

By their presence, they are aiding and abetting the continuance of barbarism, and have lost their right to life.

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Posted: 03 November 2008 05:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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arildno - 03 November 2008 08:43 AM

Everyone present at that stadium deserves to be shot.

By their presence, they are aiding and abetting the continuance of barbarism, and have lost their right to life.

Calm yourself, Arildno.

Clearly these “honor” killings and sharia law stonings (etc) of mostly women are serious crimes against humanity, but it would also be such a crime to presume everyone in a 1,000 person-sized crowd was complicit and acting of their own accord and to kill them all, or even harm them. It may be emotionally satisfying to vent like that (and I sincerely hope that’s all you were doing), but it wouldn’t hurt to gain some self-discipline and learn to govern your passions. When we allow our emotions to hijack our intellects we almost guarantee we’re worse people for it, often much worse.

Byron

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Posted: 03 November 2008 06:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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SkepticX - 03 November 2008 10:24 AM
arildno - 03 November 2008 08:43 AM

Everyone present at that stadium deserves to be shot.

By their presence, they are aiding and abetting the continuance of barbarism, and have lost their right to life.

Calm yourself, Arildno.

Clearly these “honor” killings and sharia law stonings (etc) of mostly women are serious crimes against humanity, but it would also be such a crime to presume everyone in a 1,000 person-sized crowd was complicit and acting of their own accord and to kill them all, or even harm them. It may be emotionally satisfying to vent like that (and I sincerely hope that’s all you were doing), but it wouldn’t hurt to gain some self-discipline and learn to govern your passions. When we allow our emotions to hijack our intellects we almost guarantee we’re worse people for it, often much worse.

Byron

I would say there are two separate issues here:

1)  The mind-boggling degree to which misogyny is a bedrock principle of Islam in both theory and, all too often, in practice;

2)  The blood-lust of the mob, which is an issue with human nature and group psychology.  I dare anyone here to look at the book “Without Sanctuary”:

http://www.withoutsanctuary.org/main.html

It’s a collection of lynching postcards.  Yes, Americans used to send each other souvenir postcards of very public, very brutal lynchings.  The torture of the victim was not unheard of, and it was very common for the body to be cut to pieces for “keepsakes” after the body was cut down.

This was not that long ago; some of the children present in some of these photos might still be alive today.

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Posted: 03 November 2008 06:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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bigredfutbol - 03 November 2008 11:15 AM

I would say there are two separate issues here:

1)  The mind-boggling degree to which misogyny is a bedrock principle of Islam in both theory and, all too often, in practice;

2)  The blood-lust of the mob, which is an issue with human nature and group psychology.  I dare anyone here to look at the book “Without Sanctuary”:

http://www.withoutsanctuary.org/main.html

It’s a collection of lynching postcards.  Yes, Americans used to send each other souvenir postcards of very public, very brutal lynchings.  The torture of the victim was not unheard of, and it was very common for the body to be cut to pieces for “keepsakes” after the body was cut down.

This was not that long ago; some of the children present in some of these photos might still be alive today.

I also recommend the ICAHK site. This stuff is happening now.

Byron

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“We say, ‘Love your brother…’ We don’t say it really, but… Well we don’t literally say it. We don’t really, literally mean it. No, we don’t believe it either, but… But that message should be clear.”—David St. Hubbins

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Posted: 03 November 2008 06:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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SkepticX - 03 November 2008 11:24 AM
bigredfutbol - 03 November 2008 11:15 AM

I would say there are two separate issues here:

1)  The mind-boggling degree to which misogyny is a bedrock principle of Islam in both theory and, all too often, in practice;

2)  The blood-lust of the mob, which is an issue with human nature and group psychology.  I dare anyone here to look at the book “Without Sanctuary”:

http://www.withoutsanctuary.org/main.html

It’s a collection of lynching postcards.  Yes, Americans used to send each other souvenir postcards of very public, very brutal lynchings.  The torture of the victim was not unheard of, and it was very common for the body to be cut to pieces for “keepsakes” after the body was cut down.

This was not that long ago; some of the children present in some of these photos might still be alive today.

I also recommend the ICAHK site. This stuff is happening now.

Byron

Which is right in line with my first point—misogyny is a fundamental “value” of Islam, and no reasonable person can deny this.

My only other point was that the frightening desire of hundreds of people to watch—and enjoy—a gruesome execution seems to me to be a problem of human nature.  As a species, we seem to have a frightening propensity, under certain conditions, to take delight in seeing the “other” humiliated, tormented, and killed.

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Posted: 03 November 2008 06:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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bigredfutbol - 03 November 2008 11:33 AM

Which is right in line with my first point—misogyny is a fundamental “value” of Islam, and no reasonable person can deny this.

My only other point was that the frightening desire of hundreds of people to watch—and enjoy—a gruesome execution seems to me to be a problem of human nature.  As a species, we seem to have a frightening propensity, under certain conditions, to take delight in seeing the “other” humiliated, tormented, and killed.

Yeah, I find that pretty fucked up myself, and usually crowds like that are actually anxious to add someone else to the sacrificial slab. More than once, particularly as a kid, I found myself becoming another target for a mob because I tried to defend a victim (exaggerated sense of justice and personal responsibility). Doesn’t matter if you try to appeal to reason or use force. I once learned that such a group won’t stop throwing rocks to avoid hitting someone other than their initial target. Instead they just get two targets ... unless you have a personal friend or two in the mob, which in a way is even more fucked up even if it works out for the given incident.

I learned to be wary of groups and to recognize the various forms of group-think pretty early.

I don’t like crowds so much.

I also suspect I’d have a very different attitude about them if I’d been raised in a place like the Middle East.

Byron

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“We say, ‘Love your brother…’ We don’t say it really, but… Well we don’t literally say it. We don’t really, literally mean it. No, we don’t believe it either, but… But that message should be clear.”—David St. Hubbins

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Posted: 03 November 2008 07:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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arildno - 03 November 2008 08:43 AM

Everyone present at that stadium deserves to be shot.

By their presence, they are aiding and abetting the continuance of barbarism, and have lost their right to life.

Here’s the same story in The Guardian

Here’s a little blurb about some of the people you advocate shooting:
“Inside the stadium, militia members opened fire when some of the witnesses to the killing attempted to save her life, and shot dead a boy who was a bystander.”

Byron

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“We say, ‘Love your brother…’ We don’t say it really, but… Well we don’t literally say it. We don’t really, literally mean it. No, we don’t believe it either, but… But that message should be clear.”—David St. Hubbins

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Posted: 03 November 2008 07:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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I’m a former Muslim. I have no intention of making excuses for acts like these, but for what it’s worth; when I was bowing to Mecca daily, and fasting for Ramadan, I made no excuses either. I agree with Sam Harris that Islam presents certain problems that Christianity and Judaism do not, based largely on the lack of of respect for reason and secular knowledge in those societies. However, when I see threads here that could just as easily appear on LGF, it makes me a bit queasy. Not in the sense that one should not be disgusted; one should. Nor I do I think that one should excuse the perpetrators for this crime; one most certainly should not. However, when people start saying things like look at those barbaric Muslims and what they do, to rile people up and create anger at nearly a third of humanity, that seems nonconstructive at best and inciting violence at worst. I am not sure what Muslims who are not violent and crazed, who could even be said in many cases to be secularizing their own religion slowly, are supposed to do. I’m sure you’ll say “leave Islam”, but let’s be real; most won’t, due to many factors; a general and emotional attachment, family pressure, misguided ideas that Islam can be reformed (I used to believe this), etc. Many can’t leave, on fear of death or at least repression. What is an average, non-militant Arab/South Asian/Bosnian/African who still maintains ties to her Muslim faith via the family or community to do when she has militants barking at her from one side and Ayan Hirsi Ali (among others) barking at her from the other? We are not going to get rid of Islam anytime soon, anymore than we will be rid of Christianity (or atheism, for that matter). “Defeating Islam” in some kind of epic gang war is simply not in the cards. What we can do is give aid to those Muslims who have no animosity towards us (a short list I know, but not as short as some may think) and aid those who are reasonable and relatively enlightened.

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Posted: 03 November 2008 09:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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mpbrockman - 03 November 2008 06:20 AM
Dee - 03 November 2008 03:41 AM

Are there any Muslims here ?

Dee, see if you can find mansoor531 and jack shooter. They can justify, er, explain, er, drive you bat-shit crazy with their “defenses” of this action.

See if you can get one of them to give you a firm definition of rape. I tried this once and failed, much to my dismay. I’d be interested to see if either of them have a concise and morally defensible explanation now. Of course, first you’re going to have to come to agreement with them on such terms as “concise”, “morally defensible”, “explanation”, “now” and “and”.

That said - I’m backing away. I’ve filed this whole topic under “not worth getting tangled in”. I wish you better luck.

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Posted: 03 November 2008 10:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
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Dee - 04 November 2008 02:54 AM
mpbrockman - 03 November 2008 06:20 AM
Dee - 03 November 2008 03:41 AM

Are there any Muslims here ?

Dee, see if you can find mansoor531 and jack shooter. They can justify, er, explain, er, drive you bat-shit crazy with their “defenses” of this action.

See if you can get one of them to give you a firm definition of rape. I tried this once and failed, much to my dismay. I’d be interested to see if either of them have a concise and morally defensible explanation now. Of course, first you’re going to have to come to agreement with them on such terms as “concise”, “morally defensible”, “explanation”, “now” and “and”.

That said - I’m backing away. I’ve filed this whole topic under “not worth getting tangled in”. I wish you better luck.


“Not worth getting tangled up in ” ?  You feel you are getting “tangled up ” when you debate this topic with someone who is rotten enough to excuse it ?  Stop feeling that way, whether you stay or leave your opponent , you know you have at least tried and hopefuly you have given that religion-twisted mind something to think about . BUT..this kind of thing is most certainly worth fighting for !

And I will no way stop resenting a monstrosity like Islamic stoning anything to death, or blaming women for getting raped.  To turn our backs on it is, to my way of thinking, cowardly and selfish. Take a stand against human brutality; take a stand against religious hypocrisy ; take a stand against those who think they can be rightious by committing a blood-splattered sin .  It’s a crime to be indifferant.

Oh I know, we would rather not think about it-; it hurts too much..well you know what ? It doesn’t hurt near as much as that 13 year old child hurt when she was raped by Islamic bastard hyenas , who then had a good time stoning her to death ! Hail Allah -king of goodness and mercy !! You Muslims here who claim to be repulsed by events like that -make up your minds !!!  You either ARE or ARE NOT with Islam !  If you ARE still with Islam, you excuse something inhumane ! Have the guts and the decency to walk away from hypocrisy !  Like I said—: you still like Islam ?  WHY ????  Is it your pride—or your fear ? Oh—let me guess—; it’s because it is a beautiful religion .

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Posted: 03 November 2008 11:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
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SkepticX - 03 November 2008 10:24 AM
arildno - 03 November 2008 08:43 AM

Everyone present at that stadium deserves to be shot.

By their presence, they are aiding and abetting the continuance of barbarism, and have lost their right to life.

Calm yourself, Arildno.

Clearly these “honor” killings and sharia law stonings (etc) of mostly women are serious crimes against humanity, but it would also be such a crime to presume everyone in a 1,000 person-sized crowd was complicit and acting of their own accord and to kill them all, or even harm them. It may be emotionally satisfying to vent like that (and I sincerely hope that’s all you were doing), but it wouldn’t hurt to gain some self-discipline and learn to govern your passions. When we allow our emotions to hijack our intellects we almost guarantee we’re worse people for it, often much worse.

Byron


ScepticX :  RUBBISH !!  Be a man, scepticX, and quit protesting the protester when he rightfully protests something very wrong !  You say “it wouldn’t hurt to gain some self discipline , and learn to govern your passions ” Is that all you can think of saying ?  There are somethings that call for passion . The lazy and indifferant are annoyed by a passion for what is decent ,and that decency being violated. Quit worrying about somebody getting mad at something horribly bad.

What we need now, at this point in history dealing with religion that cripples humanity, and leaves a bloody trail wherever it goes, is not so much “discipline “, but courage. And the moral fortitude to reject something that corrupts life . The free people of this world need to wake up and defend themselves against an infestation that is traveling from country to country and instiling such fear amongst these citizens that they are beginning to sacrifice thier common sense to appease Muslim wrath and be imposed upon so much they sit down for Islam rather than indure thier insane revolt .

Don’t know about those things ? Well, before you say another word, get smart and educate yourself on the subject. Find out about the UK, and so much of Europe- and thier terrible infestation of Muslim radicals who are slowly but surely getting thier way about Sharia religious law. Britain and Europe didn’t protest - they wanted to be generous and “fair” . Well they are now getting thier just desserts for being so spineless- they have changed thier whole world—-for the worse . Will we, in America, be spineless too ? Get a little more backbone, and have some human passion about freedom being threatened . Can’t you get some good anger against injustice ?  Or are you going to bow down to it ?

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Posted: 04 November 2008 12:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]  
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Abu Sayf Al-Naziri - 04 November 2008 12:42 AM

I’m a former Muslim. I have no intention of making excuses for acts like these, but for what it’s worth; when I was bowing to Mecca daily, and fasting for Ramadan, I made no excuses either. I agree with Sam Harris that Islam presents certain problems that Christianity and Judaism do not, based largely on the lack of of respect for reason and secular knowledge in those societies. However, when I see threads here that could just as easily appear on LGF, it makes me a bit queasy. Not in the sense that one should not be disgusted; one should. Nor I do I think that one should excuse the perpetrators for this crime; one most certainly should not. However, when people start saying things like look at those barbaric Muslims and what they do, to rile people up and create anger at nearly a third of humanity, that seems nonconstructive at best and inciting violence at worst. I am not sure what Muslims who are not violent and crazed, who could even be said in many cases to be secularizing their own religion slowly, are supposed to do. I’m sure you’ll say “leave Islam”, but let’s be real; most won’t, due to many factors; a general and emotional attachment, family pressure, misguided ideas that Islam can be reformed (I used to believe this), etc. Many can’t leave, on fear of death or at least repression. What is an average, non-militant Arab/South Asian/Bosnian/African who still maintains ties to her Muslim faith via the family or community to do when she has militants barking at her from one side and Ayan Hirsi Ali (among others) barking at her from the other? We are not going to get rid of Islam anytime soon, anymore than we will be rid of Christianity (or atheism, for that matter). “Defeating Islam” in some kind of epic gang war is simply not in the cards. What we can do is give aid to those Muslims who have no animosity towards us (a short list I know, but not as short as some may think) and aid those who are reasonable and relatively enlightened.


Abu sayf : First let me congratulate you for becoming an ex-muslim !! You must be a pretty smart guy .  All these “non-violent” Muslims you talk about : they must be the most frustrated people on earth. They are protesting Islamic injustice etc. so they want to get away from it . Then, when they leave their Muslim countries , they get right back to wallowing in Islam again. They may be non-violent , but Islam isn’t .Why don’t YOU speak to them ? Tell them they had better draw a line : they want to honor and love Islam..well…are they SURE they can really accept everything about Islam ? Tell them to look at it objectively if they want to be honest with themselves . Have that kind of courage. YOU have it .; tell them to make a decision . They can’t really love Islam if they think it has to be changed to really suit thier moral standards. Abu, Islam is a thorn in the side of modern standards of humanity. It is wa-a-a-aY out of step with modern life. It hasn’t made any progress in a thousand years . Ask those “non-violent” Muslim friends of yours to free themselves of religious demands . What has Islam every done for them ? All it has done, when you come right down to tacks,is promise them a dream of paradise in the future…, and it’s just that - a dream; nothing more.


But also tell them to either accept Islam for what it really is-the whole of it—or leave it . They can’t have thier Islam and eat it too. If they take it for what it really is , they live a life of religious restriction, and if they love Islam they have to love that restriction too. They better ask themselves if they believe in Islam , why do they run away from it seeking freedom ? They can’t have it both ways . Take it or leave it . You have become free. Your next step is to shed your pride in something you rejected.

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Posted: 04 November 2008 12:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]  
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bigredfutbol - 03 November 2008 11:33 AM
SkepticX - 03 November 2008 11:24 AM
bigredfutbol - 03 November 2008 11:15 AM

I would say there are two separate issues here:

1)  The mind-boggling degree to which misogyny is a bedrock principle of Islam in both theory and, all too often, in practice;

2)  The blood-lust of the mob, which is an issue with human nature and group psychology.  I dare anyone here to look at the book “Without Sanctuary”:

http://www.withoutsanctuary.org/main.html

It’s a collection of lynching postcards.  Yes, Americans used to send each other souvenir postcards of very public, very brutal lynchings.  The torture of the victim was not unheard of, and it was very common for the body to be cut to pieces for “keepsakes” after the body was cut down.


An “issue with human nature ” ? Bigred, I think not- by now most humans are repulsed by that kind of behavior . It isn’t a problem with human nature as it is a problem with Islamic nature. It’s part of thier religion to accept that behaviour . I compare it to the Gladiator (spell?) days when people found it entertaining to watch a loin chase and eat a defensless victom. Yes, the rest of the world have moved on and left that kind of thing. There may be exceptions, of course, but for the most part human life on earth rejects that disgust sort of thing .


Now I suppose you are going to get to talking about the cruel sins of places like Southern America etc. Yes that WAS awful ! But it is NOT TODAY !! I think we should concern ourselves with what is going on TODAY .Besides isolated incidents , there are no lynchings any more. Don’t let people intimidate you by reminding you of sins of the past. Thier comparison doesn’t hold water. You have a good aruement against thier accusations.

This was not that long ago; some of the children present in some of these photos might still be alive today.

I also recommend the ICAHK site. This stuff is happening now.

Byron

Which is right in line with my first point—misogyny is a fundamental “value” of Islam, and no reasonable person can deny this.

My only other point was that the frightening desire of hundreds of people to watch—and enjoy—a gruesome execution seems to me to be a problem of human nature.  As a species, we seem to have a frightening propensity, under certain conditions, to take delight in seeing the “other” humiliated, tormented, and killed.

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Posted: 04 November 2008 12:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]  
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Dee - 04 November 2008 05:39 AM
bigredfutbol - 03 November 2008 11:33 AM
SkepticX - 03 November 2008 11:24 AM
bigredfutbol - 03 November 2008 11:15 AM

I would say there are two separate issues here:

1)  The mind-boggling degree to which misogyny is a bedrock principle of Islam in both theory and, all too often, in practice;

2)  The blood-lust of the mob, which is an issue with human nature and group psychology.  I dare anyone here to look at the book “Without Sanctuary”:

http://www.withoutsanctuary.org/main.html

It’s a collection of lynching postcards.  Yes, Americans used to send each other souvenir postcards of very public, very brutal lynchings.  The torture of the victim was not unheard of, and it was very common for the body to be cut to pieces for “keepsakes” after the body was cut down.


An “issue with human nature ” ? Bigred, I think not- by now most humans are repulsed by that kind of behavior . It isn’t a problem with human nature as it is a problem with Islamic nature. It’s part of thier religion to accept that behaviour . I compare it to the Gladiator (spell?) days when people found it entertaining to watch a loin chase and eat a defensless victom. Yes, the rest of the world have moved on and left that kind of thing. There may be exceptions, of course, but for the most part human life on earth rejects that disgust sort of thing .


Now I suppose you are going to get to talking about the cruel sins of places like Southern America etc. Yes that WAS awful ! But it is NOT TODAY !! I think we should concern ourselves with what is going on TODAY .Besides isolated incidents , there are no lynchings any more. Don’t let people intimidate you by reminding you of sins of the past. Thier comparison doesn’t hold water. You have a good aruement against thier accusations.

This was not that long ago; some of the children present in some of these photos might still be alive today.

I also recommend the ICAHK site. This stuff is happening now.

Byron

Which is right in line with my first point—misogyny is a fundamental “value” of Islam, and no reasonable person can deny this.

My only other point was that the frightening desire of hundreds of people to watch—and enjoy—a gruesome execution seems to me to be a problem of human nature.  As a species, we seem to have a frightening propensity, under certain conditions, to take delight in seeing the “other” humiliated, tormented, and killed.


Something sreange happened to my last post ! Somehow it turn into blue-print I don’t know…what happened ? (It starts with “an issue with human nature ?” )

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