2 of 4
2
Thier idea of entertainment
Posted: 04 November 2008 01:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]  
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1243
Joined  2006-12-26
SkepticX - 03 November 2008 10:24 AM
arildno - 03 November 2008 08:43 AM

Everyone present at that stadium deserves to be shot.

By their presence, they are aiding and abetting the continuance of barbarism, and have lost their right to life.

Calm yourself, Arildno.

Clearly these “honor” killings and sharia law stonings (etc) of mostly women are serious crimes against humanity, but it would also be such a crime to presume everyone in a 1,000 person-sized crowd was complicit and acting of their own accord and to kill them all, or even harm them. It may be emotionally satisfying to vent like that (and I sincerely hope that’s all you were doing), but it wouldn’t hurt to gain some self-discipline and learn to govern your passions. When we allow our emotions to hijack our intellects we almost guarantee we’re worse people for it, often much worse.

Byron

I was perfectly calm.
They had the choice not go there in the first place, yet they did.
If there were anyone there against their own will, their execution is to be called “collateral damage”.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 04 November 2008 06:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]  
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3255
Joined  2004-12-24
Dee - 04 November 2008 04:18 AM

ScepticX :  RUBBISH !!  Be a man, scepticX, and quit protesting the protester when he rightfully protests something very wrong !

Do you judge any form of protest against a true injustice as just? Did you miss the part of his protest that suggested all in that stadium should be shot (he later ignored the expressed fact that several tried to save the girl, obviously at great risk to themselves—obviously they were there as well, and would have therefore fallen under the category of those he would advocate shooting).

Dee - 04 November 2008 04:18 AM

You say “it wouldn’t hurt to gain some self discipline , and learn to govern your passions ” Is that all you can think of saying ?  There are somethings that call for passion . The lazy and indifferant are annoyed by a passion for what is decent ,and that decency being violated. Quit worrying about somebody getting mad at something horribly bad.

Rational thinking requires that we think rather than emote. I didn’t suggest anything even similar to the idea that we should be indifferent and shouldn’t have passions. In fact if you have to use self-discipline to govern them in order to think effectively (i.e. like an adult rather than a child) you obviously have to have them. That’s a good example of the very basic kinds of obvious mental errors such a lack of self-discipline typicallyu (as in normally, commonly) produces.

Dee - 04 November 2008 04:18 AM

What we need now, at this point in history dealing with religion that cripples humanity, and leaves a bloody trail wherever it goes, is not so much “discipline “, but courage. And the moral fortitude to reject something that corrupts life . The free people of this world need to wake up and defend themselves against an infestation that is traveling from country to country and instiling such fear amongst these citizens that they are beginning to sacrifice thier common sense to appease Muslim wrath and be imposed upon so much they sit down for Islam rather than indure thier insane revolt .

I’m simply pointing out that hysteria isn’t the best intellectual modus operandi by which to achieve such things.

Better to grow up and provide an example and speak to these issues from a position of rational credibility.

Byron

 Signature 

“We say, ‘Love your brother…’ We don’t say it really, but… Well we don’t literally say it. We don’t really, literally mean it. No, we don’t believe it either, but… But that message should be clear.”—David St. Hubbins

Profile
 
 
Posted: 04 November 2008 07:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]  
Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  363
Joined  2006-04-05
SkepticX - 04 November 2008 11:06 AM

I’m simply pointing out that hysteria isn’t the best intellectual modus operandi by which to achieve such things.

Better to grow up and provide an example and speak to these issues from a position of rational credibility.

Byron

It’s so much more fun to fantasize about mass murder from the safety of your PC, though.  THAT’S how we’ll win the war against faith and unreason! [insert sarcastic smiley here]

 Signature 

“It isn’t paranoia- it’s a heightened awareness of reality.” —our resident conspiracy theorist takes a stand!

Profile
 
 
Posted: 04 November 2008 12:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]  
Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  497
Joined  2006-06-15
Abu Sayf Al-Naziri - 04 November 2008 12:42 AM

I’m a former Muslim. I have no intention of making excuses for acts like these, but for what it’s worth; when I was bowing to Mecca daily, and fasting for Ramadan, I made no excuses either. I agree with Sam Harris that Islam presents certain problems that Christianity and Judaism do not, based largely on the lack of of respect for reason and secular knowledge in those societies. However, when I see threads here that could just as easily appear on LGF, it makes me a bit queasy. Not in the sense that one should not be disgusted; one should. Nor I do I think that one should excuse the perpetrators for this crime; one most certainly should not. However, when people start saying things like look at those barbaric Muslims and what they do, to rile people up and create anger at nearly a third of humanity, that seems nonconstructive at best and inciting violence at worst. I am not sure what Muslims who are not violent and crazed, who could even be said in many cases to be secularizing their own religion slowly, are supposed to do. I’m sure you’ll say “leave Islam”, but let’s be real; most won’t, due to many factors; a general and emotional attachment, family pressure, misguided ideas that Islam can be reformed (I used to believe this), etc. Many can’t leave, on fear of death or at least repression. What is an average, non-militant Arab/South Asian/Bosnian/African who still maintains ties to her Muslim faith via the family or community to do when she has militants barking at her from one side and Ayan Hirsi Ali (among others) barking at her from the other? We are not going to get rid of Islam anytime soon, anymore than we will be rid of Christianity (or atheism, for that matter). “Defeating Islam” in some kind of epic gang war is simply not in the cards. What we can do is give aid to those Muslims who have no animosity towards us (a short list I know, but not as short as some may think) and aid those who are reasonable and relatively enlightened.

Hi, Abu Sayf, welcome to the forum.

As far as I know you are the first ex-muslim ever to post here. Great to see you!

Your question is one I have often asked myself. Islam does look very barbaric to us, but as bigred has pointed out, our own culture has been just as bloodthirsty up until the recent past, so we are not in a very firm position from which to launch a moral tirade.

You suggest giving aid to those Muslims who have no animosity towards us, and who are reasonable and relatively enlightened - which Muslims would those be? Would they be open to the idea that morality is not only possible but better off without religion?

 Signature 

Affiliation creates division. Friendship is better than membership.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 04 November 2008 12:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]  
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3255
Joined  2004-12-24
bigredfutbol - 04 November 2008 12:43 PM

It’s so much more fun to fantasize about mass murder from the safety of your PC, though.  THAT’S how we’ll win the war against faith and unreason! [insert sarcastic smiley here]

I often get the impression that people really do kind of slip into a different world where the rules of discourse (and often reason) are different in cyberspace. The most notable example to me is when someone hops into an active conversation and interjects with a comment about how they’re bored with the topic and they’d like it to stop or change. Imagine that kind of thing in person. There are a number of examples, but that one has probably popped up the most, at least in my own experience.

Byron

 Signature 

“We say, ‘Love your brother…’ We don’t say it really, but… Well we don’t literally say it. We don’t really, literally mean it. No, we don’t believe it either, but… But that message should be clear.”—David St. Hubbins

Profile
 
 
Posted: 04 November 2008 01:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]  
Jr. Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  63
Joined  2008-11-03

Thank you for your welcomes.

In response to points raised;

1) Yes, in a different atmosphere, many Muslims might be persuaded to put their trust in reason rather than scripture. However, realistically, this is not something that will happen tomorrow. People are attached to their religions. I’m sure most of you have read the debate between Harris and Sullivan. Harris clearly wins, but Sullivan is no fool or hothead—he is simply attached, as many of us are. Politics, to me (and this is ultimately a political issue) is the science of the possible. If you think you will get rid of Islam in this lifetime, or even century, I find that seriously unlikely. We need to make a distinction between Muslims who are inherently a threat and those who are not, by which I mean

2) I know from experience that there are Muslims, in groups and (more commonly) individually who are liberal thinkers (in the classical sense) for the most part. A few examples are the Averroes foundation, The Qu’ran-only Muslims,, several (though certainly not all) Sufi orders, the PMU, the people who ran the Muslim Heretic Conference, Asma Gull-Hassan, and others. Now, these groups are not necessarily in alliance with each other or complete devotees of reason; however, they are fighting a rear-guard battle against the militants and in this regard, deserve our support at least for the time being. Because

3) as much as we could say to Gull-Hassan for example “Yes, but your religion is inherently anti-democratic, you are practicing it wrong, not the militants”, I’m not sure how useful this would be. Maybe, just maybe, they’d agree and come across. More likely they’ll simply move further into the conservative spectrum. The very presence of such people is a sign of the secularization of Islamic world; they are trying to redefine Islam in terms of modern liberal democracy and pluralism. Whether or not this is internally self-consistent does not seem to me of particular concern right now.

4) I will say this; while there are more Islamic extremists, extremists of any stripe are morally equivalent. There are Jewish extremists every bit as dangerous and depraved; there are simply fewer of them. Sixty years ago we saw Buddhist extremists agitate for Japanese Imperial Fascism. To simply speak of Muslims as all being equivalent to the people in that stadium is irresponsible. I do not think that I was like that and I have known many Muslims who would find it deeply outrageous.

[ Edited: 04 November 2008 01:54 PM by Abu Sayf Al-Naziri]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 04 November 2008 10:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  585
Joined  2007-10-11
Abu Sayf Al-Naziri - 04 November 2008 06:22 PM

Thank you for your welcomes.

In response to points raised;

1) Yes, in a different atmosphere, many Muslims might be persuaded to put their trust in reason rather than scripture. However, realistically, this is not something that will happen tomorrow. People are attached to their religions. I’m sure most of you have read the debate between Harris and Sullivan. Harris clearly wins, but Sullivan is no fool or hothead—he is simply attached, as many of us are. Politics, to me (and this is ultimately a political issue) is the science of the possible. If you think you will get rid of Islam in this lifetime, or even century, I find that seriously unlikely. We need to make a distinction between Muslims who are inherently a threat and those who are not, by which I mean

2) I know from experience that there are Muslims, in groups and (more commonly) individually who are liberal thinkers (in the classical sense) for the most part. A few examples are the Averroes foundation, The Qu’ran-only Muslims,, several (though certainly not all) Sufi orders, the PMU, the people who ran the Muslim Heretic Conference, Asma Gull-Hassan, and others. Now, these groups are not necessarily in alliance with each other or complete devotees of reason; however, they are fighting a rear-guard battle against the militants and in this regard, deserve our support at least for the time being. Because

3) as much as we could say to Gull-Hassan for example “Yes, but your religion is inherently anti-democratic, you are practicing it wrong, not the militants”, I’m not sure how useful this would be. Maybe, just maybe, they’d agree and come across. More likely they’ll simply move further into the conservative spectrum. The very presence of such people is a sign of the secularization of Islamic world; they are trying to redefine Islam in terms of modern liberal democracy and pluralism. Whether or not this is internally self-consistent does not seem to me of particular concern right now.

4) I will say this; while there are more Islamic extremists, extremists of any stripe are morally equivalent. There are Jewish extremists every bit as dangerous and depraved; there are simply fewer of them. Sixty years ago we saw Buddhist extremists agitate for Japanese Imperial Fascism. To simply speak of Muslims as all being equivalent to the people in that stadium is irresponsible. I do not think that I was like that and I have known many Muslims who would find it deeply outrageous.

 

Greetings Abu SayF ,


You certainly sound like a intelligent and thinking young man ( I’m assuming ) .  Stick around- I’d want to hear you talk about WHY you decided to leave Islam.., or is that really the way it is ? You call yourself an ” Ex-Muslim “I should know by now if, by becoming an “Ex-Muslim ” you also become an Ex-Islamist .  I mean, a Muslim is a nationality, is it not, and Islam is a religion.  Can there be one without another ?


My point is : how is it possible for you to become an “Ex-Muslim” when you are still that nationality ? I’m taking it you are an Iranian, a Palestinian, an Eygptian , a Pakistani , ETC.  I don’t know for sure, but I guess that is how I expect you to look - like one of those just mentioned, or the likes . Are you still a believer in Islam ?  If so, why ? Is it pride or something like it that has you clinging to that faith ?


Many times we hear what seems like a rational explaination of something-; it sounds so sensible , and comes across as smooth as an ironed sheet . But it’s an illusion . You talk about not getting rid of Islam very soon. We Americans , and I think other countries like us , are not into “getting rid” of any race or religion etc.  And in a way, we may have to give up that attitude. It may reach the point when we have to get rid of them before they get rid of us , or defeat us. By “defeat ” I do not mean bomb us or shoot us etc. , but poison us with a lot of imposed religious demands , and tell us we either conform or get killed. Or live in fear, of something that will suck our freedom and rights out of our lives.

Somebody like you is always trying to insist “all Muslims are not alike , ( violent fanatic etc. )and that we need to make a good distinction between those who are threatening and those who are not . Let me be direct and honest : I do not like Islam . I detest it .  Do those “moderate” and peaceful Muslims still cling to Islam ? If yes, then are not “moderate” enough for me .

Like I just said, no matter how “good” or “moderate” a Muslim is , we still can’t concentrate on them and try to show our appreciation, as long as there are the other kind of Muslims around. Dismiss the importance of dealing with the secular-minded Muslims. Do that because, no matter how innocent they are, we still have the others; the others who have every intention of conquering the free world and impossing the cruelty of Islamic religion on it. Admitt it : Islam is of one mind when it comes to thier religion and what it is destined to do. Allah has decided hundreds of years ago that Islam “will shake the world ” and make it answer to Islam.  Islam ; radical Muslims; are a terrible threat to life on this Earth. Forget how sensible and reasoning and peaceful your moderate Muslims are ,or want to be. THEY are not the type we have to deal with as threats to Europe and the West. Even if you believe the radicals can’t do much harm because they are a comparative few, they still can rob the world of freedom and all the comforts and blessings that come with it. WHY ? Think about it : all it took was about 19 of them to kill nearly 3000 people in the USA. There are millions of Muslims and EVEN IF ONLY 1% OF THEM become destructive to the “unbelievers” they will still be too much to indure.  They are already becoming an overbearing problem and dangerous influence in the Europian nations. What would you do if YOU were these peaceful, free, and secular nations ?  Try to “negoiate” and appease these invaders who want to change your very society and national customs in favor of those encroachers ? As things are now, Europe is struggling to balance tolerance with resistance . Britain, for instance, is being taken advantage of so much because of thier tolerance—; because they didn’t resist the trouble-makers. And trouble they have been—they insist that Islam should have a say about everything in that society; even about the government . How do you see this ?  I deeply resent the impossition of radical Islam in the free world.  Why shouldn’t I ?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 05 November 2008 02:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]  
Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  497
Joined  2006-06-15
Dee - 05 November 2008 03:17 AM

I mean, a Muslim is a nationality, is it not, and Islam is a religion.  Can there be one without another ?

This is staggeringly ignorant. ‘Muslim’ means a member of the religion of ‘Islam’. It does not describe any nation. What nation are you talking about? Such a statement reveals not only the depth of your ignorance but the deeply flawed nature of your thought processes.

Dee - 05 November 2008 03:17 AM

poison us with a lot of imposed religious demands , and tell us we either conform or get killed. Or live in fear, of something that will suck our freedom and rights out of our lives.

Your problem is you are already living in fear of the most irrational kind.

Dee - 05 November 2008 03:17 AM

Britain, for instance, is being taken advantage of so much because of thier tolerance—; because they didn’t resist the trouble-makers. And trouble they have been—they insist that Islam should have a say about everything in that society; even about the government . How do you see this ?

This is false. There has been no such insistence in Britain. In fact it is more the other way round: Muslims who have been made members if the House of Lords are influencing their communities to adopt British values.

Dee - 05 November 2008 03:17 AM

I deeply resent the impossition of radical Islam in the free world.  Why shouldn’t I ?

The reason you shouldn’t is that it is not happening anywhere in the ‘free’ (by which you mean ‘democratic’) world.

America has just proved that your type of redneck right wing thinking is not the way forward, by overwhelmingly voting in Barack Obama. You, on the other hand, are stuck in some kind of wooden fort in the badlands surrounded by hostile injuns. It may be your world, but it’s not the real world.

 Signature 

Affiliation creates division. Friendship is better than membership.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 05 November 2008 03:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]  
Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  497
Joined  2006-06-15
Abu Sayf Al-Naziri - 04 November 2008 06:22 PM

I do not think that I was like that and I have known many Muslims who would find it deeply outrageous.

This is the nub: many Muslims are deeply outraged by what others say about them, whether it is true or not. This is not effective.

If I as an atheist am maligned by a religious believer, saying for example that I have no morals or that I am indirectly responsible for Stalin and Pol Pot, my response may be ridicule or it may be a reasoned challenge to that point of view, but it’s not outrage, because I don’t believe that about myself. A moderate Christian will not respond to accusations of barabarism, cannibalism, irrationality etc. with outrage, again because he or she does not believe that about her/himself.

Psychologically, outrage is a reaction to a sense of personal invasion, that one’s rights are being trampled on. It is also a classic reaction to having one’s beliefs challenged. Outrage, like any form of rage, is not per se a sufficient response to anything. One must examine why one is outraged and what kind of response would be more useful and effective than simply getting angry. Anger leads to violence leads to suffering and killing, winners and losers, the whole catastrophe. The culture must be changed.

Let’s hope Obama with his talent for reasoned negotiation and dislike of prejudice will change the culture.

 Signature 

Affiliation creates division. Friendship is better than membership.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 05 November 2008 06:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]  
Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  363
Joined  2006-04-05
mesomorph - 05 November 2008 07:23 AM
Dee - 05 November 2008 03:17 AM

I mean, a Muslim is a nationality, is it not, and Islam is a religion.  Can there be one without another ?

This is staggeringly ignorant. ‘Muslim’ means a member of the religion of ‘Islam’. It does not describe any nation. What nation are you talking about? Such a statement reveals not only the depth of your ignorance but the deeply flawed nature of your thought processes.

Dee said something ignorant?  I must mark my calendar.

 Signature 

“It isn’t paranoia- it’s a heightened awareness of reality.” —our resident conspiracy theorist takes a stand!

Profile
 
 
Posted: 05 November 2008 07:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]  
Jr. Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  63
Joined  2008-11-03

Dee, I am an ex-Muslim, as stated. I left because belief is a force at odds with truth no matter what that belief is. However, I see that you will not address any of my salient points, so I see no point in speaking further on this.

Mesomorph, my last sentence was meant to refer to other Muslims finding the act at the stadium outrageous, I’m sorry if that was ambiguous. Yes, there is a huge problem with Muslims who form a violent grudge over every slight, real or perceived.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 05 November 2008 01:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]  
Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  497
Joined  2006-06-15
Abu Sayf Al-Naziri - 05 November 2008 12:23 PM

Mesomorph, my last sentence was meant to refer to other Muslims finding the act at the stadium outrageous, I’m sorry if that was ambiguous. Yes, there is a huge problem with Muslims who form a violent grudge over every slight, real or perceived.

OK, gotcha.

 Signature 

Affiliation creates division. Friendship is better than membership.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 06 November 2008 12:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  585
Joined  2007-10-11
mesomorph - 05 November 2008 07:23 AM
Dee - 05 November 2008 03:17 AM

I mean, a Muslim is a nationality, is it not, and Islam is a religion.  Can there be one without another ?

This is staggeringly ignorant. ‘Muslim’ means a member of the religion of ‘Islam’. It does not describe any nation. What nation are you talking about? Such a statement reveals not only the depth of your ignorance but the deeply flawed nature of your thought processes.

Dee - 05 November 2008 03:17 AM

poison us with a lot of imposed religious demands , and tell us we either conform or get killed. Or live in fear, of something that will suck our freedom and rights out of our lives.

Your problem is you are already living in fear of the most irrational kind.

Dee - 05 November 2008 03:17 AM

Britain, for instance, is being taken advantage of so much because of thier tolerance—; because they didn’t resist the trouble-makers. And trouble they have been—they insist that Islam should have a say about everything in that society; even about the government . How do you see this ?

This is false. There has been no such insistence in Britain. In fact it is more the other way round: Muslims who have been made members if the House of Lords are influencing their communities to adopt British values.

Dee - 05 November 2008 03:17 AM

I deeply resent the impossition of radical Islam in the free world.  Why shouldn’t I ?

The reason you shouldn’t is that it is not happening anywhere in the ‘free’ (by which you mean ‘democratic’) world.

America has just proved that your type of redneck right wing thinking is not the way forward, by overwhelmingly voting in Barack Obama. You, on the other hand, are stuck in some kind of wooden fort in the badlands surrounded by hostile injuns. It may be your world, but it’s not the real world.


You are right- I should have known that a Muslim is one who practices Islam , but I have never thought of the two as synonymous . I guess it was easy to associate ” Muslim ” with “nation ” because I read the two words together(“Muslim Nation ” ) But I don’t think of “Muslim” as a nation, but a type .What shall we call those people who are from places like Pakistan, Palestine, Eygpt , Iran , Iraq and Saudia Arabia ? Would “Arabs” be correct ? Somehow that seems wrong , but if they are a race, that has to be Arabian doesn’t it ?


I asked sayF if , since he was now an “ex-Muslim” , was he now also an ex-islamic ”  It seems to me if he gave up being a Muslim and he doesn’t give up on being an Islam worshipper , he is not REALLY an “Ex-Muslim”  . I mean, I wish he would explain in more detail why he dropped Islam. That should be interesting .


About what I said about Muslims , Europe, Britain etc. is most definately true !! Either that ,or all the written material , and other sources of information I’ve been reading and hearing for 8 years,is all wrong . What do you really know about the subject ? How much time and effort have you devoted to learning about it ?  Maybe you should TUNE-IN to the facts. Take an interest and read abpout it yourself. One book that may help you is “America Alone ” or I highly recomend “Londonistan” by Melanie Phillips .I know people think what they want to think, and you are probably speaking not because of what you actually know, but out of wishful thinking .


Yes, friend, the European countries are struggling with Muslim imposition , and the immigration of Muslims has become a source of trouble and contentous tribulation almost althrough the non-Muslim world. Some are worse than others, but it sure is happening. I know of one country that has been intirely taken over by Muslims, and what came with them is thier religious laws and rules, which, if you don’t know by now, are so unfair to all of us, no matter what gender, but especially for women .I am not sure, but I think this place is Muldivia . It is an Island, actually . The residents there were trusting and hospitable. They made exception for the Muslims.  They became victoms of thier own generousity , and ignorance, I’m afraid. And that is an example of what could happen to other countries, or lets just say…places.  Are YOU one of those who are complacent or indifferant about this business ?  Are YOU one of the ignorant ( please excuse me, but I can’t think of a more fitting word—don’t take it personaly ) . How real is all this I’m talking about ?  Why don’t you check it out and then say something ?

 

There are so many Atheist hypocrites here !  They are disgusted with religion and believe it can ( and has ) screwed up humanity so much, yet they turn around and make excuses for the one religion, or maybe it’s best to call it a faith, that is so cruel, unfair, unjust and brutal. Men are especially willing to overlook these things when a Muslim man is in the same room as they are, if you know what I mean. It is not so easy for a female of the species . . She is the one who suffers most from the ignorant Islamic religious curse .  Try and see Islam through the eyes of a woman . Then quit being cozy and content with a religion that is an insult to modern mankind’s intelligence., and standards of humanity .


You called me a “Redneck ” . No sir, I am NOT a redneck . Neither am I a “right-wing ” anything . I am not a Democrat or Republican, I am an Independant . But , I must ask : even if I WAS a right-wing” why is that such a horrible thing ? I mean, half this country is Conservative.  Why is it such a sin to be “right-wing ” ? That is not nondiscriminating is it ? 


And by “free world” I mean just that: FREE . They don’t have to be a democratic government ; they might be socialist, etc. Although, I can find no reason why any government should’nt be a Democracy. It is an Ideal that has proved itself , isn’t it ? Should we ever have to apologize for Democracy ?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 06 November 2008 06:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]  
Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  497
Joined  2006-06-15
Dee - 06 November 2008 05:41 AM

You are right- I should have known that a Muslim is one who practices Islam , but I have never thought of the two as synonymous . I guess it was easy to associate ” Muslim ” with “nation ” because I read the two words together(“Muslim Nation ” ) But I don’t think of “Muslim” as a nation, but a type .What shall we call those people who are from places like Pakistan, Palestine, Eygpt , Iran , Iraq and Saudia Arabia ? Would “Arabs” be correct ? Somehow that seems wrong , but if they are a race, that has to be Arabian doesn’t it ?

As I said before, there is no Muslim race (nor any ‘Nation of Islam’ except in the mind of Louis Farrakhan). There are many nations in which the majority religion is Islam, extending from Morocco through north and sub-saharan Africa, the middle East, much of southern Asia and parts of China, Malaysia and the Indonesian archipelago and all the way to the Solomon Islands. Only a minority of the people who profess Islam are Arabs. Others include Berbers, Turks, Turcomans, Indo-Europeans, Chinese, Mongols, Malays, Indonesians and Melanesians. The Arabic language is the religious language of Islam, much like Latin was for Christendom. Most Muslims are given some version of an Arab name.

Around 20% of Palestinian Arabs were originally Christians, by the way. There are also large Christian populations in Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Iraq.

Dee - 06 November 2008 05:41 AM

About what I said about Muslims , Europe, Britain etc. is most definately true !! Either that ,or all the written material , and other sources of information I’ve been reading and hearing for 8 years,is all wrong . What do you really know about the subject ? How much time and effort have you devoted to learning about it ?  Maybe you should TUNE-IN to the facts. Take an interest and read abpout it yourself. One book that may help you is “America Alone ” or I highly recomend “Londonistan” by Melanie Phillips .I know people think what they want to think, and you are probably speaking not because of what you actually know, but out of wishful thinking.

Because I don’t observe any Muslim takeover does not mean I am a wishful thinker! As Unbeliever used to say, with all this American talk of Muslims taking over in Europe I have to go to the window and look out just to check I didn’t miss the revolution! I can assure you that we are not going to let Islam take any kind of role in our national governance. Muslims must obey British law and if they don’t they get convicted or extradited like anybody else.

I haven’t read Melanie Phillips’ book, but I have heard her on the radio and read her columns occasionally. She’s a sort of English Ann Coulter who writes for the Daily Express and the London Evening Standard, two of our most right-wing tabloids. She has a vested interest in portraying the Muslim presence in Britain as a threat. Most people here see her for what she is - a trouble-maker.

Dee - 06 November 2008 05:41 AM

I am not sure, but I think this place is Muldivia . It is an Island, actually . The residents there were trusting and hospitable. They made exception for the Muslims.  They became victoms of thier own generousity , and ignorance, I’m afraid.

Now you have really gone overboard. There is no country called Muldivia. There is a country called Moldavia (Romanian ‘Moldova’). It is not an island, it is landlocked between Romania and Ukraine. It is still communist. There is no Muslim takeover, in fact the opposite, there has recently been a police crackdown on religious freedom. There have been Muslims there for the last 700 years, since the Ottoman Empire, and they form 0.3% of the population.

Dee - 06 November 2008 05:41 AM

There are so many Atheist hypocrites here !  They are disgusted with religion and believe it can ( and has ) screwed up humanity so much, yet they turn around and make excuses for the one religion, or maybe it’s best to call it a faith, that is so cruel, unfair, unjust and brutal. Men are especially willing to overlook these things when a Muslim man is in the same room as they are, if you know what I mean. It is not so easy for a female of the species . . She is the one who suffers most from the ignorant Islamic religious curse .  Try and see Islam through the eyes of a woman . Then quit being cozy and content with a religion that is an insult to modern mankind’s intelligence., and standards of humanity .

I don’t make apologies for Islam, I am certainly not comfortable with it and I really don’t know what you’re talking about. I am against ignorance and misrepresentation, however, and I regard the truth - and nothing else - as sacrosanct.

Dee - 06 November 2008 05:41 AM

Why is it such a sin to be “right-wing ” ?

Because right wing means supporting minority rule by a bunch of rich, privileged, selfish, greedy, narrow-minded, ignorant, self-satisfied power-grabbers. Also being like that oneself. You can be a right-wing communist, a right-wing capitalist or a right-wing Muslim, it’s the same. It also implies membership of the prevailing organised belief system which favours the right wing, that’s Christianity in the case of the USA.

Dee - 06 November 2008 05:41 AM

Should we ever have to apologize for Democracy ?

In view of the current choice of president by the US electorate, no.

 Signature 

Affiliation creates division. Friendship is better than membership.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 06 November 2008 06:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]  
Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  363
Joined  2006-04-05
Dee - 06 November 2008 05:41 AM

You are right- I should have known that a Muslim is one who practices Islam , but I have never thought of the two as synonymous . I guess it was easy to associate ” Muslim ” with “nation ” because I read the two words together(“Muslim Nation ” ) But I don’t think of “Muslim” as a nation, but a type .What shall we call those people who are from places like Pakistan, Palestine, Eygpt , Iran , Iraq and Saudia Arabia ? Would “Arabs” be correct ? Somehow that seems wrong , but if they are a race, that has to be Arabian doesn’t it ?

For someone who brags about how much she’s read on a subject, you really are fucking clueless about the basics.  Yes, “Muslim” means “follower of Islam” you ignorant twat.  I have no idea what you mean when you say you think of ‘Muslim’ as a “type.” 

Speaking of not knowing a fucking thing about a topic you seem to be obsessed with—Iran and Pakistan are not Arab countries.  Most Muslims aren’t Arabs, and a significant minority of Arabs are Christian.  Oh, and the sun rises in th east every morning—yet another esoteric fact you might not be aware of.

I would call people from Egypt Egyptians, but that’s just me.  People from Iran?  How about Iranians? 

It takes a special kind of stupid to think that the followers of a religion “have to be a race,” but then again it shouldn’t surprise anyone that you’re eager to bring race into the discussion.

Dee - 06 November 2008 05:41 AM

I asked sayF if , since he was now an “ex-Muslim” , was he now also an ex-islamic ”  It seems to me if he gave up being a Muslim and he doesn’t give up on being an Islam worshipper , he is not REALLY an “Ex-Muslim”  . I mean, I wish he would explain in more detail why he dropped Islam. That should be interesting .

“Islam worshipper”?  How is that different from “Muslim”?  Please explain—THAT should be REALLY interesting.

Dee - 06 November 2008 05:41 AM

About what I said about Muslims , Europe, Britain etc. is most definately true !! Either that ,or all the written material , and other sources of information I’ve been reading and hearing for 8 years,is all wrong . What do you really know about the subject ? How much time and effort have you devoted to learning about it ?  Maybe you should TUNE-IN to the facts. Take an interest and read abpout it yourself. One book that may help you is “America Alone ” or I highly recomend “Londonistan” by Melanie Phillips .I know people think what they want to think, and you are probably speaking not because of what you actually know, but out of wishful thinking .

I guess hoping that people with strong opinions could back them up with knowledge and reason is “wishful thinking” as well.

Dee - 06 November 2008 05:41 AM

Yes, friend, the European countries are struggling with Muslim imposition , and the immigration of Muslims has become a source of trouble and contentous tribulation almost althrough the non-Muslim world. Some are worse than others, but it sure is happening. I know of one country that has been intirely taken over by Muslims, and what came with them is thier religious laws and rules, which, if you don’t know by now, are so unfair to all of us, no matter what gender, but especially for women .I am not sure, but I think this place is Muldivia . It is an Island, actually . The residents there were trusting and hospitable. They made exception for the Muslims.  They became victoms of thier own generousity , and ignorance, I’m afraid. And that is an example of what could happen to other countries, or lets just say…places.  Are YOU one of those who are complacent or indifferant about this business ?  Are YOU one of the ignorant ( please excuse me, but I can’t think of a more fitting word—don’t take it personaly ) . How real is all this I’m talking about ?  Why don’t you check it out and then say something ?

The smartest thing you’ve ever done on this forum is to keep your last name a secret, so that your frequently advertised stupidity can’t catch up with you in real life.

“Muldivia” is not a real country.  I assume you meant Moldova?  They haven’t been taken over by Islamists.  They have plenty of problems with the Russians, and corruption, and poverty, and other issues, but sharia law isn’t an issue there.

I double-dare you to back up your nonsense assertion with facts.

Dee - 06 November 2008 05:41 AM

There are so many Atheist hypocrites here !  They are disgusted with religion and believe it can ( and has ) screwed up humanity so much, yet they turn around and make excuses for the one religion, or maybe it’s best to call it a faith, that is so cruel, unfair, unjust and brutal. Men are especially willing to overlook these things when a Muslim man is in the same room as they are, if you know what I mean. It is not so easy for a female of the species . . She is the one who suffers most from the ignorant Islamic religious curse .  Try and see Islam through the eyes of a woman . Then quit being cozy and content with a religion that is an insult to modern mankind’s intelligence., and standards of humanity .

Yeah Dee, you’re the only one who gets it.  The rest of us are living with our heads in the sand—you’re the only one who’s seen what happened to those poor Muldivinians for example.

Dee - 06 November 2008 05:41 AM

You called me a “Redneck ” . No sir, I am NOT a redneck . Neither am I a “right-wing ” anything . I am not a Democrat or Republican, I am an Independant . But , I must ask : even if I WAS a right-wing” why is that such a horrible thing ? I mean, half this country is Conservative.  Why is it such a sin to be “right-wing ” ? That is not nondiscriminating is it ?

Calling you a “redneck” would give real rednecks a bad name.  And I’m glad to hear you’re an independent since neither party deserves to be stuck with a tool like you, although I suspect the real reason you’re an independent is that you’re either too dense to understand what either major party stands for or your just too dumb to figure out how to register.

Dee - 06 November 2008 05:41 AM

And by “free world” I mean just that: FREE . They don’t have to be a democratic government ; they might be socialist, etc. Although, I can find no reason why any government should’nt be a Democracy. It is an Ideal that has proved itself , isn’t it ? Should we ever have to apologize for Democracy ?

Free but not democratic?  Hoo-boy, you’re just a font of out-of-the-box thinking, aren’t you?

 Signature 

“It isn’t paranoia- it’s a heightened awareness of reality.” —our resident conspiracy theorist takes a stand!

Profile
 
 
   
2 of 4
2
 
‹‹ hilarious video      The Problem of Islam ››
RSS 2.0     Atom Feed