Wow, the quality of debate has really sunken around here when we have to quote a proven nut like Lewis Carroll. Now there’s a prophet for a new millenium.
And since we’re so big on goofy quotes, how about:
“Two men say they’re Jesus, one of them must be wrong.” Dire Straits
“A man who believes in God can never find God. If you are open to reality, there can be no belief in reality. If you are open to the unknown, there can be no belief in it. After all, belief is a form of self-protection, and only a petty mind can believe in God.” - (Krishnamurti)
Can atheism be challenged as a belief?
Celsus, do not blame Mr. Dodgson and his pipe for the opening quotes. The question I intended to ask is: can atheism be challenged by other than religious faith? Is it possible to live without classifying oneself in some ‘ism’ which is bound to cause animosity?
[quote author=“unsmoked”]Can atheism be challenged as a belief?
Celsus, do not blame Mr. Dodgson and his pipe for the opening quotes. The question I intended to ask is: can atheism be challenged by other than religious faith? Is it possible to live without classifying oneself in some ‘ism’ which is bound to cause animosity?
As I’ve argued on other threads, IMHO atheism is not a belief system, it is the rational default position.
[quote author=“unsmoked”]“A man who believes in God can never find God. If you are open to reality, there can be no belief in reality. If you are open to the unknown, there can be no belief in it. After all, belief is a form of self-protection, and only a petty mind can believe in God.” - (Krishnamurti)
Can atheism be challenged as a belief?
Celsus, do not blame Mr. Dodgson and his pipe for the opening quotes. The question I intended to ask is: can atheism be challenged by other than religious faith? Is it possible to live without classifying oneself in some ‘ism’ which is bound to cause animosity?
I don’t blame his pipe, I’m more creeped out by his propensity for photographing little girls in the alltogether.
Besides, one doesn’t have to apply an “ism” to classify themselves, but it does make it easier to clearly relate your positions to others. People love to pigeon hole other people, but thats often the price you pay for not running with the crowd.
Besides, if you don’t like atheist, you could always call yourself a “bright.”
Personally, I like to describe myself as a godless bolshevik. :wink:
The Dylan lyric is not about religion nor atheism. It’s just about words. Both Dylan and Carroll use poems and lyrics as simple literary devices that can help us self important humans understand our humorous predicament.
[quote author=“Celsus”][quote author=“unsmoked”]“A man who believes in God can never find God. If you are open to reality, there can be no belief in reality. If you are open to the unknown, there can be no belief in it. After all, belief is a form of self-protection, and only a petty mind can believe in God.” - (Krishnamurti)
Can atheism be challenged as a belief?
Celsus, do not blame Mr. Dodgson and his pipe for the opening quotes. The question I intended to ask is: can atheism be challenged by other than religious faith? Is it possible to live without classifying oneself in some ‘ism’ which is bound to cause animosity?
I don’t blame his pipe, I’m more creeped out by his propensity for photographing little girls in the alltogether.
Besides, one doesn’t have to apply an “ism” to classify themselves, but it does make it easier to clearly relate your positions to others. People love to pigeon hole other people, but thats often the price you pay for not running with the crowd.
Besides, if you don’t like atheist, you could always call yourself a “bright.”
Personally, I like to describe myself as a godless bolshevik. :wink:
Celsus, as soon as you call yourself an ‘ism’ of some kind, hordes of other ‘isms’ are going to hate you. Why not be an individual person not easily classified and shrugged off as this or that?
“Kangaroos were not happy to see the arrival of rabbits,” the Hatter pointed out. “What makes you think we’re going to be welcome on other planets?”
Hatter to the White Rabbit
Further Adventures of Alice
[quote author=“unsmoked”]Why not be an individual person not easily classified and shrugged off as this or that?
People will apply “isms” to you, whether you wish them to or not. I think of myself as quite the individual, I personally have never met anyone quite like me. (This is not to say that I think I’m perfect or special. Bear with me, I’m making a point.) However, I am constantly having people claim that they “know me,” or “know my type,” or even “your just like my brother/ neighbor/ friend/ second cousin, twice removed” or some such. This information is usually provided before I give evidence of any “ism” that I may wish to profess to.
Even beyond “isms,” people still love to label. When people see paintings or drawings I’ve done, I often will hear, “Oh, my son/ nephew/ neice is an artist too. He/She is 10 years old, and just loves to draw all the time.” This, of course is a ridiculous compairison, as that they are compairing the work of a child (who are not prodigies) with the work of a grown-up who has made the study of art one of his primary interest.
While some of these compairisons will drive me batty, it’s often easier to just let people apply the label to you, rather than having to give long winded diatribes to explain your positions. It’ll end up like this anyway;
1st person, “I’m a christian. I love Jesus. How about you”
2nd person, “I don’t define myself by any labels. I am an Individual.”
1st,“Oh. But do you believe in god?”
2nd,“No, I do not.”
1st, “Oh, so are you an atheist then? I don’t believe you can be an atheist because even atheist have to belive in something.”
[quote author=“treblinka”]Dylan was not a atheist, he was a Jew.
You can be racially Jewish and still be atheist. I’ve known several Jewish people who considered themselves *ethnically* Jewish, but didn’t really believe the God thing (they instead celebrated their Jewishness much like I, as a Chinese person, would celebrate Chinese New Year if I ever bother to). On the other hand, I have a Chinese aunt who converted to orthodox Judaism. She’s not racially Jewish but for all purposes, she’s Jewish.
The White Rabbit moved his cup and saucer to one side, tamped his notes and spread them out on the table in front of him. “It’s a simple sum,” he said. “You take what is, and subtract what isn’t, and you get an atheist.”
The Dormouse opened one eye. “Did Jesus sleep?” he asked, apparently thinking he was in Sunday school. Then he promptly fell asleep again.
Monsieur le Tab, who was given to scattered, derivative speeches, had been sitting at the table ignoring everything that the others were saying. He was polishing his teaspoon with his napkin and examining his own distorted reflection in the back of the spoon. Now, ignoring the fact that the White Rabbit was in the middle of a groundbreaking new theory on the origin of the Big Bang, le Tab adjusted his silk scarf, stood up on his chair and cleared his throat significantly. Everyone put their teacup down and looked at him expectantly. Annoyed, the White Rabbit trailed off ” . . . so now we know for a certainty that the Big Bang . . . “
“Friends, atheists, countrymen,” le Tab began in his smooth Charles Boyer voice, “lend me your ears. As a dog has fleas so does this forum have the Noble Champius. After all, the company of atheists and lost souls is better than the company of bigots and hypocrites, and, grievously, Champius has discovered this.
“A propos de bottes, I wish to remind you that when Caesar returns from Caledonia, he will undoubtedly pass through Thesalonica, and so we should prepare for his triumphant arrival. In preparation, I admonish you to bathe in the Springs of Diaphius (cats excepted), and to don clean white raiment. We must sweep the stones of the Arch de Triumph and sprinkle them with water from the aqueduct that comes from the holy mountains of Juniper,* home of Zeus and Hercules.
We must polish our brass and silver trumpets, and our wives and daughters must sew new banners in green and golden cotton to commemorate the annexation of the pagan northern islands to our Empire. No more will impudent Brittanica plunder and terrorize our fair Gallia!” Here, le Tab paused for cheers and applause, but when none were forthcoming he continued unabashed. “Let the children of Thesalonica practice the chorus of our welcoming voices!
Let flowers and aromatic herbs be plucked to scatter at his feet! All hail Caesar!”
In the silence that followed, a meadowlark sang in the blue dome high above the Hatter’s garden. A bumblebee buzzed as it backed out of a foxglove blossom. Le Tab sat down and pointed at the teapot, signaling to Alice that he wished to have another cup. The White Rabbit gathered up his notes, looking for the place where he had left off. The Walrus, having finished his crumpets, was snoring, his big tummy raising and lowering the table like waves on a gentle sea.
Monsieur le Tab to the tea party
Further Adventures of Alice
* he means ‘Jupiter’, but has the geography and deities all wrong anyway
