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Posted: 25 September 2010 10:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]  
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i urge you to watch a documentary called
Fixer: The Taking Of Ajmal Naqshbandi

it will show you an example of how oppressed and frightened people are on some Muslim Countries and how Corrupted regimes across the years left them with no hope
they’re the ones that need hope and we can’t just take it away from them…

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Posted: 26 September 2010 05:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]  
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I urge you to read some more history.  Your childish ideas about the history of the arab world are in dire need of revision.

[ Edited: 26 September 2010 09:25 AM by Reerr]
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Posted: 26 September 2010 09:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]  
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now that’s the type of DATA that i call false (not entirely)
when you make such claim you at least name the source of such number…

I did, when I wrote this:

For the translation figures, see the 2003 study by the U.N. Development Program.  Also referenced in the 2001-2004 Arab Human Development Report (the latter written by arabs).  10,000 total in the last 1000 years.

to which you replied:

the UN are you kidding! what does that statistic prove ?

So you are aware of the source, you just don’t feel like acknowledging it in a pitiful attempt at discrediting my point.  No surprise here.  Of course, you waylay your own argument  when you referenced the “...social and historical differences between most arab countries under Dictatorships…”  You’re denying the existence of the source of data, clearly because you don’t like it, yet making excuses for it a priori, apparently just in case I remember that I have already referenced it.

who are you asking to translate , have you read anything of what i wrote ?
how many minority dictatorships destroyed nations and committed genocides?

This is the sort of thing I’m talking about.  You ram a non-sequitor into every paragraph in the form of some sort of accusation against anyone but muslims.  Then you go on chasing the red herring you just pulled out of a top-hat, all the while deliberately avoiding answering my question or addressing my arguments. 

The actual sentence you misquoted in service of your red herring was:

You say the radicals are such a minority, yet complain that the entire faith is frozen in terror by extremists, and that scholars are unable to translate the quran due to fear.

Why is this my problem?  If you don’t want bad translations falling into the hands of your critics, get out there and do some translating.  As an analogy, if you write a book, and do badly, you cannot blame the critics for your own bad scholarship or faulty prose.  I don’t care what it requires of the muslim population, they have a choice:  FIGHT extremists in their midsts, free the scholars from this terror, overthrow these oppressive dictatorships, and move on with the so-called “peaceful” form of Islam, OR blame their past, blame the west, blame colonialism, blame bad scholarship, blame the jews, whatever.  I’ll say it again, “cry me a river, build a bridge, and get the fuck over it”.  This is why I don’t have much hope for Islamic reformation; the only people doing any real work are the fundamentalists.

you provide me with links like it’s a holy text, those are silly radical sites and the analysis of the same claims, they’re there for propaganda purposes

Good job not reading.  The first was an article by an actual muslim scholar, the second was a news piece with discussion with some other muslim scholars.  The third was a Slate piece by Christopher Hitchens.  All three approached the issue from a different direction, yet came to similar conclusions.  Unfortunately for you, none of them agree with this picture you’re painting.

(The most controversial work is that of Ali abd al-Raziq, an Islamic Scholar and Shari’a judge…

there were people who tried and there’s still people who try but your media doesn’t till you about them and they fear for there lives.

Again, why is this my problem?  Fix your societies, do what must be done, but don’t blame the media or anything else because you can’t get your act together.

 

Who’s talking about the true meaning of Islam , I’m talking about treating people as human beings

You cannot talk about bad translations, original meanings, or say the fundamentalists “got it wrong” unless you accept that there is a “true” Islam.  If there is no “right” way to do things, you cannot claim someone has done it wrong.  So, in a sense, you are the one talking about “true meaning of Islam” when you claim things about the faith which other people disagree with.  I, on the other hand, think the whole project is a terrifying circus contest in which billions of people compete to see who can be more ignorant.

Now, go back and reread those two paragraphs.

 

I’ll go pass the silliness of that reply and ask you
how long have you lived under occupation ? (for once try to answer a question strait)

I would like you to look carefully at what you have just done.  I will quote the reply you didn’t like again here:

Siding with murderously intolerant, suicidal maniacs bent on armageddon, because you don’t like colonial powers, is irrational, dogmatic, and nonsensical…

First, you discredit my point by calling it silly (“silliness of that reply”).  In the very next sentence, you attempt to justify the “irrational, dogmatic, and nonsensical” actions from above by implying that I don’t know just how bad occupation is.  You did this numerous times in previous posts, and you have done it at least twice in this most recent reply.  You can’t have your cake and eat it too, I’m afraid.

As to your question, I have not lived under occupation.  Have you?

OK. go ahead mate, go raise a huge army(or pull it) and go to Muslim countries and kill them all, every last one of them.
better yet, let them be ignorant as they are , Don’t waste your precious time trying to Educate them one way or another , just leave them to Ignorance and it will kill them.

Is it moral to judge 1.2 Billion Humanbeings according to your knowledge alone

is it moral to suggested exterminating them

Show me where I have advocated ANY of this, or withdraw these accusations immediately, with a full apology.

is it moral to suggest…Forcing an evolution of thought upon them?

Yes.  Not only is it moral to suggest it, it is imperative that this evolution occur.  You have conceded this point here:

yes they need to change now, but they also need help…an outside help

Yeah, thats about half an inch apart, in the same post.

Don’t ask me or them to translate so arrogantly , you want to change something be part of that change or ...

I’m getting extremely frustrated with this.  I didn’t ask you to translate a thing, I said that IF you are unsatisfied with the current translations, WHY AREN’T YOU TRANSLATING IT YOURSELF?  I was trying to make a point that obviously flew right over your head.

If you’re here to offer hope, I’m all ears.

I already did.
your conviction of Islam as an abrahamic faith is irrelevant to what I’m saying, and here Its again in short

convict anything, but at this point of time the actual enemy to all people (Including Muslims) are the radical hadith Fundamentalists, in the criticism realm putting all muslims under attack as a strategy is wrong IN MY OPINION (which is not obligatory) why?
because Muslims tend to take the side of anything attacked by the west specifically , so you’re basically giving the “Bad Guys” what they want and accelerating there plan.
why do Muslms take the radicals side? its something caused by years of occupied lands and Colonies so they tend to never take the occupier side.

lets hope I’m Understood CORRECTLY this time.

Thats not hope, that is you warning me not to criticize Islam.  To which I have replied copiously, as have others, and I refuse to be hushed or bullied.

do you want to create the illusion you stated in your first post ” there is no hope “?
is that what you want to “believe” ?

No, I am looking for a sign that there are actually people working as hard or harder than the fundamentalists at changing how Islam is viewed.  I’m not asking you to build a building, or finance the materials, I’m just asking you to point to the contractor.

Every muslim is NOT a scholar.  The overwhelming number of theological “mistakes” which you attribute to bad scholarship are damning of the faith on a wide scale.  If large numbers of regular people pick it up and become suicidal murderers based on what is written in the texts, or support the suicidal violence of their neighbors, there is something fundamentally wrong with the texts themselves. 

Like I state previously, some ideas are just plain bad, pure and simple.  The fact of the matter may be that Islam is at its core peaceful, tolerant, and loving.  The problem is that the texts aren’t clear enough, obviously.  Muslims must either ignore large portions of the texts on a vast scale, or just kill off the retards that aren’t getting it.  Fighting against criticism of the faith is a terrible strategy when trying to foster tolerance of religious diversity. 

You don’t want diversity, you want special pleading.

Sorry, no dice.

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Posted: 26 September 2010 09:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]  
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I urge you to read some more history.  Your childish ideas about the history of the arab world is in dire need of revision

Oh as you put it this way…
I studied that history (and not only Arab history), from all points of view and from all aspects and I’m wondering what are you trying to Illustrate here?
What’s your source for Arab History knowledge?
With such sentence you appear to claim that Arabs don’t live in oppression?
So let me REVISION your lacking knowledge then.
The jihad concept that’s practiced today originated in the United States, and to specific at the University of Nebraska, where thousands of books were shipped during the afghan Russian war to brain-wash the masses.
And because your US media “mostly” failed to report such issue to the public you’ll see such claim as ...A conspiracy theory, knowing that the US supported the Afghans with weapons during that time as well.
Fortunately the Washington Post reported it on marsh 23rd 2002(call them and ask or find that issue)
More over the US government is the one that cleared the road to radicals such as Taliban when it tricked the majority of their opposition to lay down their weapons on the claim of “peace” which was proven false and it was only beneficial to Taliban.
Again that claim i made was verified by a number of Congressional testimonies.
so the Monster (the windmill) you’re fighting was actually made in the west and exported to Muslims in such time they were trying to rid themselves from the radical ideology.

Please Don’t Preach I History…i already know that.
And there’s more of such data
My aim was never to Defend Islam, but it’s Immoral to use lies to justify an argument( or an action), or make claim based on lacking knowledge and ignoring an abundant amount of information and observed data for the sake one thing or another.
I think I proved more than once that there was (and stil ) scholars that are trying to stand for the radicals, but apparently your aim is not to “right a wrong “ or help the needy, you just want to prove that there’s no hope.
There’s hope and I prove that time and again, but it seems you can’t care less if such hope exists or not.

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Posted: 26 September 2010 11:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]  
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So you are aware of the source, you just don’t feel like acknowledging it

i did acknowledge your source and i said that we could discuss the reasons but it doesn’t prove anything .

now i will not till you , that Arabs translate million book a year but the actual number is currently 330 book a year. not much yes.( again we can easily discuss the reasons without the use of our arrogance)

it proves exactly what i want to prove.
they’re obsessed people under dictatorships and they’re denied any human right what so ever
now show me how a statistic about Translation prove anything? do you know how many books are released in there original language (English french , German…etc)?
do you know how the data collected in the arab world , do you understand that those dictatorships are the one submitting it to the UN ...apparently you do but you have no interest in acknowledging that Muslims are humans too.

You ram a non-sequitor into every paragraph in the form of some sort of accusation against anyone but muslim

I’m not accusing you , I’m showing a probable intent , not because of Muslims, Islam is wrong but that’s not what we’re discussing now, and you are the one that’s trying to mix all of it together so it appears that you have a point , while ...

Why is this my problem?  I


screw them , its not your problem, screw the hungry Africans too they deserve it ....
DON’T claim Morality you don’t posses then .

if you don’t care don’t be part of the problem or even the solution , keep to yourself , you want to make claims and engage people in conversation in a moral base , be moral and take responsibility like you’re asking them to take responsibility too.
you posted this thread right?
looking for hope,or to support to your claim?
with that logic you’re no better than a radical.
again this is no an accusation , its a fact proven by your own posts ignoring the human and social base for there suffering ,there suffering and not yours.

Unfortunately for you, none of them agree with this picture you’re painting.

now let me show you how radical you are and how you’re not even willing to understand the human aspect of this issue

the 1st link i refereed to in my small answer as ( silly radical sites)
as for the 2nd one and he’s not a scholar he’s a radical claiming to be a scholar.
and i told you in the same line it’s a propaganda campaign.
have you even tried to verify any of what i told you?
then you brought me Hitchens, and i have great respect for him but , im sory his knowledge of this matter is very little and he said it in one of his interviews , he tackles islam as an abrahamic faith like he’s doing with the rest of them, again even his claim not based on truth but on the radicals propaganda .

i read all 3 links the question is have you read mine have you tried to search for anything but how to accuse Muslims in general.?

Again, why is this my problem?  Fix your societies

I’m sorry but repeating this forces me to reply accordingly.
If its from point of view “not your problem”....so shut up.
shut up because what you do is making it worse for those who actually try to fix the society so “your Majesty” can live in peace.
and using the same logic of ( why is it my problem ) I’ll till you , why is it Muslims problem that you don’t like them? why is it there problem that you don’t like terrorist killing you?
it’s not the Muslims problem either , they can do what ever they want , they have no problem and you can say all your “mambo jumbos"and they will care lesser every time.
again if it still not your problem…don’t go into the problem let those who are really interested talk about it.

You cannot talk about bad translations, original meanings, or say the fundamentalists “got it wrong” unless you accept that there is a “true” Islam.  If there is no “right” way to do things, you cannot claim someone has done it wrong.  So, in a sense, you are the one talking about “true meaning of Islam” when you claim things about the faith which other people disagree with.  I, on the other hand, think the whole project is a terrifying circus contest in which billions of people compete to see who can be more ignorant.

Now, go back and reread those two paragraphs.

again why is it my problem that you have a certain conviction against religious faith ...its not my problem , is it?
see…
why do you care if there’s hope? its not your problem, you said so…(go back to your own reply)

now for how many times i have to repeat myself, fix society and you’ll fix peoples brains…
is that too hard to understand
now if fixing society is not your problem please spare us your opinion, because thats the field that needs fixing now…
and for another example, to demand people of evolving there understanding you need to educate them , there were times when you might have been burned for just talking about religion so don’t preach me about how arabs should fix there society…its whether you join and help or stay away and watch.
according to a UN report (ill try to get you a link for ) arab society is behind western society by 100 years at least (social and education wise) , in your school they study evolution while in most arab countries they don’t ...its forbidden.
again (for the 100 times) fix society 1st and the rest will come easily.

First, you discredit my point by calling it silly (“silliness of that reply”).

and i still stand my ground it is silly ...as silly as they get.
when you call an argument “suck” its silly.
see you’re the one dismissing others opinion , you didn’t comment on it , you just said it suck and continues rambling about your own opinion

you attempt to justify the “irrational, dogmatic, and nonsensical” actions from above by implying that I don’t know just how bad occupation is.  You did this numerous times in previous posts, and you have done it at least twice in this most recent reply.  You can’t have your cake and eat it too, I’m afraid.

yes I’m justifying it but through analysis and clear data ,not pointless debates.
and its not my cake neither yours
and it’s something Social psychology has been doing for ages.

As to your question, I have not lived under occupation.  Have you?

briefly yes , as for the details , i don’t feel like sharing it with you.

Show me where I have advocated ANY of this, or withdraw these accusations immediately, with a full apology.

here you go

Yes.  Not only is it moral to suggest it, it is imperative that this evolution occur.  You have conceded this point here:

that’s is immoral , you help people evolve , you help make their living conditions better , but you don’t force anything on anybody , did any body force you to have what ever belief ( or the lack of it) that you have now)?
again you don’t claim something as absolute fact whilst you never experienced it personally.

but again if you saw any type of Insult in that reply i Apologize for such thing and assure you that an insult was never meant.

Yeah, thats about half an inch apart, in the same post

again , i really spelled my self letter by letter now, yes change but how, that’s the issue we disagree on.

WHY AREN’T YOU TRANSLATING IT YOURSELF?

again if feel frustrated you should understand that i don’t only feel the same but i think more.
how, how do you want some one to translate anything when he knows he will be killed if he did ?
would you do it if i asked you?
here’s a question, you have knowledge no one has (amongst some other too) but writing it down will without doubt get you killed and your family persecuted and discriminated against will you do it?
and then you say

.  I didn’t ask you to translate a thing

but you are , maybe not in that context but isn’t it obvious.
again the same quote

WHY AREN’T YOU TRANSLATING IT YOURSELF?

Thats not hope, that is you warning me not to criticize Islam.  To which I have replied copiously, as have others, and I refuse to be hushed or bullied.

where the hell is the warning ?
whose trying to hush you or bully you?
all I’m doing is to show you the real 1st enemy instead of you spreading that nonsense and after 200 years we will still be here talking about the same Issue .
HELP THEM FIX THE SOCIETY 1st , help them get rid of the radical ideas 1st and you’ll then have no need to preach you’re ideas , it will reach them anyway.
Now please Don’t use such strategy to make me look like a bully trying to force you to anything , you’re free to do what ever you want I’m just showing you info you either refuse to acquire or to understand.

No, I am looking for a sign that there are actually people working as hard or harder than the fundamentalists at changing how Islam is viewed.  I’m not asking you to build a building, or finance the materials, I’m just asking you to point to the contractor.

there are organization all over the world opposing the radical , in the west you’ll find it easily like the Muslims Against Terrorism organization in the US , and others across Europe .
in Muslim countries you now can see atheist (in some countries not all) secular parties and secularim…etc
just a small example
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=6411153862
just a group of people who decided to go for it and they’re doing well so far , their website will be up soon.
and many groups like them…there’s hope but when someone like you comes without knowledge that comes from reality and living amongst them, it give the radicals an advantage over them.
again that’s not tilling you what to do that’s non of my business, that’s showing you that you and people like Sam harris and hitchins and Dr.Dawkins and…many others can help , if you wanted too, because isn’t that the point after all, for people to be freed from ignorance and superstitious belief.

  If large numbers of regular people pick it up and become suicidal murderers based on what is written in the texts,

have you ask yourself another question, why haven’t they done so all these years?
because what I’m tilling you is fact , the majority is against it and knows its false teaching , and there’s sites as well that shows that its not in the original Islamic text
http://www.m-a-t.org/

in Islam suicide as an act is forbidden entirely and ask any Muslim scholar
and need to comment in the following too

Every muslim is NOT a scholar.


Actually they are, Islam requires each muslim to have that amount of knowledge of his religion ( i don’t make this a propaganda but you asked).
the sentence you wrote is the work of radicals that preached to Muslims that they know better than them…( long story i don’t think you’re interested to hear it)

The problem is that the texts aren’t clear enough

again i don’t want to seem preaching Islam because i can’t care less, but actually the text is clear enough for all crab speakers , that’s why you’ll find the mass of the radicals come from Pakistan and Afghanistan…and then transferred to parts of the Arab world.
again that’s not preaching , just stating facts, the Quran text in its correct context is clear to all arabic speakers with medium knowledge of the arabic language.

Fighting against criticism of the faith is a terrible strategy when trying to foster tolerance of religious diversity.

huh
dear…criticize as much as you want i have no interest in the entire matter of discussing religious faith , but this matter is not about religion , its about a moral stand and an ethical point of view according to Historic and actual observed data and facts.

[ Edited: 26 September 2010 11:13 AM by theFreethinker]
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Posted: 26 September 2010 12:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]  
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finally there’s one thing i don’t want to leave un-discussed

In addition, muslims make up 20% of the worlds population, and contribute ~1% of the worlds scientific papers

now this not only false but outrageously wrong.

if we will talk about history arab and Muslim scientists contributed greatly to science in history and just as a starter

http://www.irfi.org/articles2/articles_3151_3200/the great muslim scientists of all timehtml.htm 

and for the modern days, despte all i mentioned of oppression and despair they successfully became renounced scientist and the matter of you not knowing them is truly your own problem.
what field of science do we start at

Ali Moustafa Mosharafa, a man corresponded with Einstein and contributed to the theory of relativityand more…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Moustafa_Mosharafa

Abdel Rahman Badawi
existentialist professor of philosophy

Elsayed Elsayed Wagih
Professor of Virology and Biotechnology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elsayed_Elsayed_Wagih

Ahmed Zewail
the Linus Pauling Chair Professor Chemistry and Professor of Physics at the California Institute of Technology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Zewail

and many many more… the case of you not willing to find out about them is different from there actual existence.

[ Edited: 26 September 2010 12:15 PM by theFreethinker]
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Posted: 26 September 2010 12:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]  
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now this not only false but outrageously wrong.

OK, lets see what you have marshaled to boost that 1% figure. . .

Ali Moustafa Mosharafa

A scientist, doing science.

Abdel Rahman Badawi

Another scientist, probably doing science.

Elsayed Elsayed Wagih

Another scientist, probably doing science.

Ahmed Zewail

Another scientist, probably doing science.

and many many more… the case of you not willing to find out about them is different from there actual existence.

Amazing, where on EARTH did I claim that no arab scientists exist?  Mind pulling that one out of your ass too?  Reread the sentence you quoted and tell me why you completely missed the mark, please.

Or just delete this entire comment, you have wasted your time.

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Posted: 26 September 2010 01:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]  
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Truly If anyone is watching this he/she would’ve expected such reply
1st you said that the contribution of those scientists is 1% and now you belittling what they’re doing ( or done ) How convenient.

Amazing, where on EARTH did I claim that no arab scientists exist?

here

In addition, muslims make up 20% of the worlds population, and contribute ~1% of the worlds scientific papers

now are you going to be so hypocritical to deny what is meant from such sentience , 1% contribution of the 20% population ...means basically little scientific effort ...

  Mind pulling that one out of your ass too?  Reread the sentence you quoted and tell me why you completely missed the mark, please.

again I’ll ignore the silly pointless insult.
i didn’t mess any point , do you have conclusive evidence of that percentage, and when we say conclusive it mean from different trusted verifiable sources.

i didn’t mess any point, you’re the one with misleading arguments trying to reform what you said.
(finding that percentage can’t be accomplished with Google as a verifiable source)

I’m not trying to boost anything ...just proving the falsehood of that statement , you want to find out how many are really there , find out for your self…its not my Problem.
the sentence that acknowledges your claim false(to a certain extent) stays.

[ Edited: 26 September 2010 01:40 PM by theFreethinker]
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Posted: 26 September 2010 01:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]  
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i did acknowledge your source and i said that we could discuss the reasons but it doesn’t prove anything .

Not to beat a dead horse, but you claimed I was spewing information un-sourced, here:

when you make such claim you at least name the source of such number…

Then, you come back, attempting to refute my number by saying:

now i will not till you , that Arabs translate million book a year but the actual number is currently 330 book a year. not much yes.( again we can easily discuss the reasons without the use of our arrogance

Which has absolutely nothing to do with the grand total in the past 1,000 years.  The original purpose of bringing this up was to demonstrate that Islam was less than helpful to it’s own societies progress, 1000 years ago and today. 

now show me how a statistic about Translation prove anything?

It “proves” that since Spain is currently translating about 10000 books PER YEAR into spanish, having only translated 10000 total books into arabic in the last millennia would indicate both how consistent the religious opposition to education has been since the emergence of Islam, and how badly it is still stifling the free marketplace of ideas.

OK. go ahead mate, go raise a huge army(or pull it) and go to Muslim countries and kill them all, every last one of them.
better yet, let them be ignorant as they are , Don’t waste your precious time trying to Educate them one way or another , just leave them to Ignorance and it will kill them.

Is it moral to judge 1.2 Billion Humanbeings according to your knowledge alone

is it moral to suggested exterminating them

Show me where I have advocated ANY of this, or withdraw these accusations immediately, with a full apology.

Where is my apology? 

This is the last fucking straw for me, the dishonesty required for you to NOT apologize and pretend I advocate genocide is blatant.  That half-assed blanket apology doesn’t count, as it does not accept culpability.  Alternatively, if you don’t know that calling someone a genocidal asshole isn’t an insult, you have much bigger problems.

You really should be ashamed of yourself.

I was going to continue chasing deliberate misquotations, deliberate misunderstandings, and rampant self-contradictions, but then I realized that everything I write will just get deliberately misunderstood/misquoted.

READ what you have written, trace the points back through the posts.  Make a list of the points you bring up, i.e. “Muslim scholars are afraid to confront terrorists”, then “Every muslim is an Islamic scholar”, and connect the dots.  You demand source material for claims, but when presented with it, you ignore it or try to demonstrate that it doesn’t prove something different that you literally make up on the spot and accuse me of claiming.  Oh, and you don’t provide source information for any of your more obviously false claims, like “that’s why you’ll find the mass of the radicals come from Pakistan and Afghanistan…and then transferred to parts of the Arab world.”  This is a lie, pure and simple, Islamic terrorists have cropped up all over the world.  They come from every arab country, and even from places as distant as Russia, London, and North Africa.  They seem to surface wherever Islam gains popularity. 

In addition, every time I bring up religion, you wonder why we’re talking about religion, and revert back to society.  Then, duly following, I begin talking about society, you point to religion, and how badly I’ve misunderstood the text.  This entire conversation is a huge circle, and frankly, I have better things to do.

I asked, on a public forum, if anyone is seeing hope for change.  I did not come to your house, your forum, or your blog, and demand answers.  You have not provided hope, you have just trotted out bad argument after bad argument, and I really am done.

Feel free to butcher my response, ignore my points, and take most of what I say completely out of context; I would hate for you to be inconsistent now . . .

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Posted: 26 September 2010 01:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]  
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theFreethinker - 26 September 2010 05:34 PM

Truly If anyone is watching this he/she would’ve expected such reply
1st you said that the contribution of those scientists is 1% and now you belittling what they’re doing ( or done ) How convenient.

Amazing, where on EARTH did I claim that no arab scientists exist?

here

In addition, muslims make up 20% of the worlds population, and contribute ~1% of the worlds scientific papers

now are you going to be so hypocritical to deny what is meant from such sentience , 1% contribution of the 20% population ...means basically little scientific effort ...

  Mind pulling that one out of your ass too?  Reread the sentence you quoted and tell me why you completely missed the mark, please.

again I’ll ignore the silly pointless insult.
i didn’t mess any point , do you have conclusive evidence of that percentage, and when we say conclusive it mean from different trusted verifiable sources.

i didn’t mess any point, you’re the one with misleading arguments trying to reform what you said.
(finding that percentage can’t be accomplished with Google as a verifiable source)

I’m not trying to boost anything ...just proving the falsehood of that statement , you want to find out how many are really there , find out for your self…its not my Problem.
the sentence that acknowledges your claim false(to a certain extent) stays.

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/print/42134

You should have just deleted your post.

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Posted: 26 September 2010 02:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]  
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Which has absolutely nothing to do with the grand total in the past 1,000 years.  The original purpose of bringing this up was to demonstrate that Islam was less than helpful to it’s own societies progress, 1000 years ago and today.

hooray…that’s the statement i was waiting for.
so you want to prove that Islam or arab culture as whole contributes nothing , well any intelligent person who doesn’t take a 1 source for granted will try to find out and will ultimately discover whether through my previous post or by searching on his own how false this statement is .

I’m not going to drag myself into this type of nonsense any more, you have 1 statistic regarding the number of books translated into arabic
1- that proves nothing ,and what you said is your own twisted analysis
2- you ignore data like number of arab and Muslim scientists working in the west now a day , or even in there own countries. there contribution is a different issue that you’re trying to drag us into , while the main issue is the unethical idea of treating a huge number of people according to heritage, religion or race…
and again this is not bullying you into anything , you’re the one making the claims not me.

It “proves” that since Spain is currently translating about 10000 books PER YEAR into spanish, having only translated 10000 total books into arabic in the last millennia would indicate both how consistent the religious opposition to education has been since the emergence of Islam, and how badly it is still stifling the free marketplace of ideas.

i wonder why i found that almost exact sentence by looking at Google in several sites !!!
again proves nothing , when i look at a dog and say it has a tail it must be a donkey, and you tell me that its a ridiculous thing to stay ...it’s as you said a ridiculous thing to say as for your biased conclusion
IT PROVES NOTHING
there are books in English and french and German and Spanish…etc and people read them in there original language which is much better.
now find the number for foreign books released to the arab world.
how come there’s so many Great arab surgeon (as an example )like Magdi Yaqub( sir.Magdi Yaqub now) and zohni farrag…and again many more.
they originally studied at there home countries (aran countries) and then exeled in what they do…
see your entire argument is whether racist or simply just insulting.

Where is my apology?

look here

but again if you saw any type of Insult in that reply i Apologize for such thing and assure you that an insult was never meant.

its in post #20

and I’m not going to act like you did , at least i want to keep that limit of respect to myself and to those who might read this.

now i’ll answer the bulk of the confusion debate you just added
i talked about society and its history but you drag us to religion as a cause , then i talked in that border so you open a different issue , then you go back to an old post , so i did the same.
from the `st second as any honest intelligent person would see you didn’t want to have any decent argument you only wanted consent on your Bias hypothesis
i Agreed with you in parts ( most parts) but you continue in claiming that i don’t, and more over your offensive language and manner is upsetting but yet you demand an apology for pointing out the obvious immorality in one of your claims, and i did apologize as shown above , but again because you have no intention of having a decent debate you claim otherwise.
you accuse me of putting an accusation in every post and yet you’re the one whom all his sentences whether have direct accusation to 1.2 Billion humans in the manner of hate speech.

and now you say

You demand source material for claims, but when presented with it, you ignore it

if i quoted every word you said through my post I’ll prove its false accusation again
i didn’t ignore any source , and you gave only one that can be considered trustworthy (UN) other than that just links to radical sites with comment on radical ideas. that’s no source that’s nonsense

and frankly, I have better things to do.

you’re the one dragged us on circles from the very begging and those who will read this thread will find out for them selves
i said that my point of view is that muslims as human and culture is not the problem for the time being the problem is radical ideas that was fought by muslims for ages but through so many events the radical gained power over the opposition and that opposition is still fighting and attacking then or including them and the entirety of muslims at this time will hurt the case for freeing peoples mind , i said that free there minds and societies first and they will easily accept your criticism of the religion and maybe agree to it ...but all that you selectively disregarded and bombarded me with accusation after the accusation .

I asked, on a public forum, if anyone is seeing hope for change.  I did not come to your house, your forum, or your blog, and demand answers.  You have not provided hope, you have just trotted out bad argument after bad argument, and I really am done.

I’m part of that public forum and like you I’m entitled of an opinion that may or may not agree with yours .

wheres bad Argument when showing you people in arab countries who are evolving without your help
wheres bad argument when showing that these people live under miserable conditions,
wheres bad argument when proving they have the well to change ,

you are the one who has NO ARGUMENT what so ever.

Feel free to butcher my response, ignore my points, and take most of what I say completely out of context; I would hate for you to be inconsistent now

I never done that until this very moment , its you who Ignored several points in my previous posts and any one who’ll read this thread will see it for him/her self
show me one point that i ignored and I’ll reply to it .
if I’ve quoted something out of context as you claim why don’t you explain it more…at least whom ever going to read this will know exactly my position, will know where i agree with you and where i don’t…

and as i said you’re the one who started the insult and the aggressive language and then demanded an apology without giving one 1stt

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/print/42134

You should have just deleted your post.

Actually its your mistake to quote Jim Al-Khalili ( an Arab Iraqi physicist )
i urge anyone to watch his documentary produced by the BBC named"Science and Islam” where he shows the amount of contribution arabs scientist given to the world.
his books are pure physics

i really wonder what where you aiming to accomplish by that link…please you watch the series you recommend to others.

Dear i had the same conversation like the one we’re having but on the other side of the table, i often talk to Muslims on Opposition to their belief and ideology
but because as i said before you have a predetermined conviction to Islam and to me you fail to see that I’m a unbiased party.


if you ever want to waste more of our times please get 1 point only from the previous discussion to be debated instead of going back and forth on several points that will anyway will be dismissed by you at the end.

[ Edited: 26 September 2010 03:20 PM by theFreethinker]
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Posted: 26 September 2010 06:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]  
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me:

In addition, muslims make up 20% of the worlds population, and contribute ~1% of the worlds scientific papers

you:

now this not only false but outrageously wrong…means basically little scientific effort ...

me:

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/print/42134

you:

i really wonder what where you aiming to accomplish by that link

me:

You demand source material for claims, but when presented with it, you ignore it or try to demonstrate that it doesn’t prove something different that you literally make up on the spot and accuse me of claiming.

you:

Actually its your mistake to quote Jim Al-Khalili ( an Arab Iraqi physicist )
i urge anyone to watch his documentary produced by the BBC named"Science and Islam” where he shows the amount of contribution arabs scientist given to the world.

The above exchange demonstrates what I am talking about.  I make a statement of fact, you deny it, I source it, then you start beating up a straw man.  It doesn’t get any more clear than this.

The POINT was that Islam has literally halted progress for it’s adherents, and anyone unfortunate enough to find themselves under the power of Islam.  Before you start making shit up again, the word ‘muslim’ means follower of Islam, not arab.  It’s not a race, or an ethnicity, its a term like Christian.

There, one single point.

Flame on.

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Posted: 26 September 2010 10:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]  
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amazing that you replied ... and more amazing the way you did

now to show how misleading you are, here how you quoted me in your reply

now this not only false but outrageously wrong…means basically little scientific effort .

now you made it seem that the 3 dots between “wrong” and means” , had no explanation…
so i’ll quote the REAL FULL text that i said

now this not only false but outrageously wrong.

if we will talk about history arab and Muslim scientists contributed greatly to science in history and just as a starter

and you as i said in previous post, using a confusion strategy try to show that you presented something that i dismissed and I never presented links and data that you even didn’t comment on or acknowledge

so i’ll quote the post that you ignored parts of (most of it ) so people see how misleading you are

finally there’s one thing i don’t want to leave un-discussed

In addition, muslims make up 20% of the worlds population, and contribute ~1% of the worlds scientific papers

now this not only false but outrageously wrong.

if we will talk about history arab and Muslim scientists contributed greatly to science in history and just as a starter

http://www.irfi.org/articles2/articles_3151_3200/the great muslim scientists of all timehtml.htm 

and for the modern days, despte all i mentioned of oppression and despair they successfully became renounced scientist and the matter of you not knowing them is truly your own problem.
what field of science do we start at

Ali Moustafa Mosharafa, a man corresponded with Einstein and contributed to the theory of relativityand more…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Moustafa_Mosharafa

Abdel Rahman Badawi
existentialist professor of philosophy

Elsayed Elsayed Wagih
Professor of Virology and Biotechnology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elsayed_Elsayed_Wagih

Ahmed Zewail
the Linus Pauling Chair Professor Chemistry and Professor of Physics at the California Institute of Technology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Zewail

and many many more… the case of you not willing to find out about them is different from there actual existence.

now here’s very few examples of muslim arab scientists who by the word of current great scientists contributed greatly to science
so you belittled the modern ones and again using confusion you paste the following link

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/print/42134

to which i replied

Actually its your mistake to quote Jim Al-Khalili ( an Arab Iraqi physicist )
i urge anyone to watch his documentary produced by the BBC named"Science and Islam” where he shows the amount of contribution arabs scientist given to the world.

to show that you are not even aware of the REAL content of what you represented But probably your Ignorance of the scientist Identity ( which is Arab)

so does that show us…
i even acknowledge your source and use it to disprove your argument , but you claim

The POINT was that Islam has literally halted progress for it’s adherents, and anyone unfortunate enough to find themselves under the power of Islam.

if you watched the 3 part series that you posted an introduction too in the past link you’ll know the falsehood of your own statement ...you apparently have no knowledge of the arab scientists history you
and I’m not claiming you did, you posted info without even seeing its content.( as you accused me before)

, the word ‘muslim’ means follower of Islam, not arab.  It’s not a race, or an ethnicity, its a term like Christian.

and again confusion to mislead the masses ...let me quote my own word again

while the main issue is the unethical idea of treating a huge number of people according to heritage, religion or race

see the word in the middle highlighted in red “religion” .
and i mentioned all 3 because you said in post #6

see the 2003 study by the U.N. Development Program.  Also referenced in the 2001-2004 Arab Human Development Report (the latter written by arabs).

see the word arab in red…arab is not a religion is it ?
and you came back and used the same source which only speaks of arabs as stated ( Arab Human Development Report) so it doesn’t include Turkey(secular but Muslims majority or )Malaysia or Indonesia….etc why you used the statistic then ?( they’re Muslim counties )
again confusion , so people make the stereotype of arab-muslims…
so you used the term arab 1st as a mean to generalize , while i used it from my 1st post only to show that the quran understanding requires arabic when i said

a Quran translation is either the work of the Fundamental extremist who translate verses according to their point view , or non-Muslim scholars (rarely found) and its lacks somewhat understanding of Arabic words of the time period…


see how easy its to discredit you

Flame on.

i never flamed , you’re the one that used words like ( suck, shit, fuck ...) despite the fact the i told you several time how insulting its, and when i called it silly you felt insulted.
the one time i suggested ( and was clearly right) a bias trend in your argument again you felt insulted and demanded an apology, but did i apologize ?
yes
but did you apologize or even care to change your aggressive manner that i pointed out on each one of my posts?
no you didn’t and you didn’t even change it.


i thought you said it’s a waste of time…

 

final word
i don’t understand what are you trying to achieve here ...it’s certainly not searching for hope.( and that’s obvious to even the blind)
from your first post

given what the books say

what books? name 5
which books that made you lose all hope, how do you judge people by books? ( it’s not a question just a contemplation on that sentence of yours)

(i hope what i see next is not again…confusion )

we either seriously find a way to do this( in a decent respectful manner) or to just stop it.(the choice is yours)
( I have a suggestion if you don’t mind , but I’ll be awaiting your answer)

Talent is a flame. Genius is a fire.

[ Edited: 26 September 2010 11:31 PM by theFreethinker]
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Posted: 27 September 2010 08:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]  
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i thought you said it’s a waste of time…

No, your right, it is a waste of time.  The only reason I provided the link because that was the source of the study.  The author’s other works, or even your apparent endearment to his message, are/is irrelevant.  The data I provided was correct, and referred to muslims. 

The arab human development report was in reference to the translation data, which you also questioned.  That has nothing to do with the scientific papers point.  The scientific papers disparity spoke directly to muslims, not arabs.  You are confusing the two, not me, do try to remain on topic.

I brought up one point, provided sourced data to back it up, and you flew off the handle in 8 different directions.  Perhaps a quote from you will help elucidate this:

in your school they study evolution while in most arab countries they don’t ...its forbidden.

Hmmm, “forbidden”.  SOUNDS rather religious in nature, no?  So if religion is currently being used to derail education, that could explain why so few scientific papers come from muslims, even though muslims make up 20% of the world’s population. (muslims, again, not arabs)

see how easy its to discredit you

That entire post was a waste of your, and my, time.  You used unrelated data from one point to discredit another.  100% of arabs are not 100% muslim.  Can we agree on this point at least?

Please briefly concede that I have made clear, concise points, and provided adequate source material to back them up.

[ Edited: 27 September 2010 08:05 AM by Reerr]
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Posted: 27 September 2010 09:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]  
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The data I provided was correct, and referred to muslims.

No its not correct in both the link still here and people can easily decide for them selves.
1st link about a study of the arab world (not musllims), i didn’t question , i jsut pointed that it’s not accurate and proves nothing as people by there own research will discover.
2nd link about a documentary and small study by an arab secular physicist showing how muslims at certain time contributed to modern science greatly
i think people have there own mind and can see it for them selves


here’s a link the the study you just mentioned and didn’t provide
referenced in the 2001-2004 Arab Human Development Report
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBIQFjAA&url=http://hdr.undp.org/en/media/hdr04_complete.pdf&rct=j&q=referenced in the 2001-2004 Arab Human Development Report&ei=OcagTJbmCtCNjAec_sC-DQ&usg=AFQjCNHul78_Q-YkqvEzB2NaSEGohD1meA&sig2=_r2JAPXu4pSUQTY4GO-Ukg&cad=rja
(to show it only speaks of arabs not muslims)
and i read most of it it only speaks about Arab States on 2004
The current report of 2009 can be found in the following link
http://www.arab-hdr.org/contents/index.aspx?rid=5

Hmmm, “forbidden”.  SOUNDS rather religious in nature, no?  So if religion is currently being used to derail education, that could explain why so few scientific papers come from muslims, even though muslims make up 20% of the world’s population. (muslims, again, not arabs)

Ok, how many times i explained this in this thread ...yes for the past 20 years or so radicalism has been a bad influence , we actualy AGRE on that , but is it all muslims?

have you heard of Aboubakr Bayoumi
He’s Egyptian Arab MUSLIM ( not Atheist from a Muslim family )
He’s also winner of Mathematician of the year (2010) and he’s one the most prestigious mathematicians today
http://www.telesio-galilei.com/tg/index.php/academy-award-2010


so hmmm, no hope?

yes we agree radical interference with education must end, but for you to jump to your own conclusion that it proves all muslims are bad is just without evidence.

That entire post was a waste of your, and my, time.  You used unrelated data from one point to discredit another.  100% of arabs are not 100% muslim.  Can we agree on this point at least?

it was’nt a waste of mine, i proved my points , not necesserly to you.

we agree that 100% of arabs are not 100% of muslims.

doesn’t that mean that the UN study again is irrelevant!

Please briefly concede that I have made clear, concise points, and provided adequate source material to back them up

i don’t agree that you provided anything to back any of your claims up,
the sources you provided were a reference to a UN study from 2004 about ARAB translation of foreign book , and never provided another study of how many book is released on its own language.

the 2nd link is an Article by an Arab scientist showing how muslims were much better in science at 1 time and not the same now , which we agree even without that source , but not to the extent that they account only for 1% of scientific papers why?
Zewil and Bayoumi alone ( just 2 muslim scientist ) account for more that that, and Muslim scientist of all countries exist in most European country and US and more and hold the most prestigious positions so 1- you can verify this data and make sure it s true 2- when it’s verified it mean its impossible there’s a relation between the 2.
it’s like any other religious faith, they can have great scientific achievements while holding to their faith ( and that’s my point) muslims are no different than any other humanbeings of any faith, ethnicity or race.

[ Edited: 27 September 2010 10:08 AM by theFreethinker]
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