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Illusion of Freedom
Posted: 11 August 2012 02:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 121 ]  
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toombaru - 11 August 2012 01:12 PM
kikl - 11 August 2012 12:44 PM
toombaru - 11 August 2012 12:42 PM

... Is your self eternal?

I don’t know. I shall only know, once I die. But, if you ask me, what I believe: No, I don’t believe that the self is eternal. It probably ceases to exist once your brain is dead.

 


Which affects the ocean more….....a ripple or a tsumani?

 

What time is it on Mars?

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Posted: 11 August 2012 02:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 122 ]  
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toombaru - 11 August 2012 02:01 PM
toombaru - 11 August 2012 01:12 PM
kikl - 11 August 2012 12:44 PM
toombaru - 11 August 2012 12:42 PM

... Is your self eternal?

I don’t know. I shall only know, once I die. But, if you ask me, what I believe: No, I don’t believe that the self is eternal. It probably ceases to exist once your brain is dead.

 


Which affects the ocean more….....a ripple or a tsumani?

 

What time is it on Mars?

 

Is the world half up and half down?

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Posted: 11 August 2012 02:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 123 ]  
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toombaru - 11 August 2012 02:02 PM
toombaru - 11 August 2012 02:01 PM
toombaru - 11 August 2012 01:12 PM
kikl - 11 August 2012 12:44 PM
toombaru - 11 August 2012 12:42 PM

... Is your self eternal?

I don’t know. I shall only know, once I die. But, if you ask me, what I believe: No, I don’t believe that the self is eternal. It probably ceases to exist once your brain is dead.

 


Which affects the ocean more….....a ripple or a tsumani?

 

What time is it on Mars?

 

Is the world half up and half down?


How wide is the line between Texas and Oklahoma?

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Posted: 12 August 2012 08:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 124 ]  
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toombaru - 11 August 2012 02:03 PM
toombaru - 11 August 2012 02:02 PM
toombaru - 11 August 2012 02:01 PM
toombaru - 11 August 2012 01:12 PM
kikl - 11 August 2012 12:44 PM
toombaru - 11 August 2012 12:42 PM

... Is your self eternal?

I don’t know. I shall only know, once I die. But, if you ask me, what I believe: No, I don’t believe that the self is eternal. It probably ceases to exist once your brain is dead.

 


Which affects the ocean more….....a ripple or a tsumani?

 

What time is it on Mars?

 

Is the world half up and half down?


How wide is the line between Texas and Oklahoma?

 

There are no such thing as things.
And there is no holder of things.

[ Edited: 13 August 2012 02:07 PM by toombaru]
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Posted: 16 August 2012 01:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 125 ]  
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Hello Jkernan,


Continuing this discussion is probably an exercise in futility, however I believe you deserve answers to some of the above misrepresentations.


You’ll notice a poster suggests that: “The idea that free will presupposes that man is not influenced by his environment is a straw man. No one would argue that people are not influenced by their surrounding or genetic predispositions.”


But the statement is self-contradictory— either the “will” is free or it isn’t.  If our behaviors are influenced by our genetics and environment we must, by definition, have something less than “free” will (perhaps we should call it “partially free will.”) 


The poster then goes on to present a straw man of his own.  Straw man: (definition) constructing a misrepresentation or over-simplification of the opposing position.  You then easily refute your constructed straw man, but you have not responded to the substance of the opposing argument:  “For example, you can’t fly by spreading your arms and jumping off of a tower, even if you wanted to.”


The fact that you can’t fly by spreading your arms and jumping off a tower has absolutely nothing to do with the influence of genes, learning, or environment on behavior.  You couldn’t do that through free will either.


“But, conversely, this doesn’t mean that your actions are completely determined by your surrounding. There are definitely males who are not attracted to females, in spite of their genes and evolutionary predisposition to reproduce with females.”

 


You’ll notice that infants are not born with an innate knowledge of male and female—they learn the difference over time.  And genetics and brain physiology have conclusively been shown to influence sexual preferences.


The poster then goes on to state: “There exists no theory that may accurately predict human behavior. If so, then please present it! “


I hardly know where to start:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behaviorism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experimental_analysis_of_behavior

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applied_behavior_analysis

 

One of the tenants of Science is empirical skepticism (see black swan problem above.)  But observe how confident the poster is of free will.  He’ll be hard pressed, however, to present any solid evidence.  His stand will inevitably come down to a metaphysical argument of faith.  The rabid need to defend this stand usually arises through christian or other abrahamic religious traditions where “sin”, “evil”, “heaven” and “hell”—in fact the whole faith structure is invested in free choice.  If you don’t “have” free will you can’t be sent to hell.  This wouldn’t be a problem for humanity except that free will is an explanatory fiction.  Why did a person behave in one way or another?  He did it of his own free will—he’s a sinner and must be punished—end of discussion, end of rational enquiry. 

 

[ Edited: 16 August 2012 04:53 PM by Wreck of M Deare]
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Posted: 16 August 2012 02:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 126 ]  
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Wreck of M Deare - 16 August 2012 01:47 PM


I hardly know where to start:

\http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applied_behavior_analysis

Well, I know why the beginning was hard. That was not a very good start. I’ve read the article on wikipedia. Unfortunately, I could not find a deterministic theory that would let me predict someone’s behaviour deterministically.

“The fact that you can’t fly by spreading your arms and jumping off a tower has absolutely nothing to do with the influence of genes, learning, or environment on behavior.  You couldn’t do that through free will either.”

Sure it does have to do with genes. If we had the genes of a bird, we could possibly fly. Q.E.D.

“He’ll be hard pressed, however, to present any solid evidence.”

Sure, there is lot’s of evidence, for example my personal experience as well as the experience of many other people who claim to act according to their will. They tell you, I did that because I wanted to. So there is lots and lots of testimony. You however believe that these are all illusions. So in this case, the burden of proof is on your side. The evidence overwhelmingly supports my case.

Regards,

Kikl

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Enlightenment is man’s emergence from his self-incurred immaturity.

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Posted: 16 August 2012 02:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 127 ]  
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Sure, there is lot’s of evidence, for example my personal experience as well as the experience of many other people who claim to act according to their will. They tell you, I did that because I wanted to. So there is lots and lots of testimony. You however believe that these are all illusions. So in this case, the burden of proof is on your side. The evidence overwhelmingly supports my case.

Regards,

Kikl

——————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————-
Most people think they have free will but personal experience (even your own) is not a reliable reference for the way things are.
For many years most people believed witches existed and millions were burnt at the stake.
Eighty percent of Americans believe that Jesus will be coming back in their lifetime.
Many people think Obama knows what he is doing.
Never do delusional people think they are delusional.
Do you believe that humans the only organism that have free will?
What about my dog?
Can birds and fish choose their own actions?
How about shrimp and clams?
Does a mosquito choose whom they are going to bite.
Can bacteria and virus seek out their victims?
It’s apparent that all living organisms do not have free will.
At what point in their evolution did homo sapiens acquire this amazing ability?
Do you think it was maybe ten thousand….....or a hundred thousand years ago?

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Posted: 16 August 2012 02:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 128 ]  
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toombaru - 16 August 2012 02:34 PM

Sure, there is lot’s of evidence, for example my personal experience as well as the experience of many other people who claim to act according to their will. They tell you, I did that because I wanted to. So there is lots and lots of testimony. You however believe that these are all illusions. So in this case, the burden of proof is on your side. The evidence overwhelmingly supports my case.

Regards,

Kikl

Most people think they have free will but personal experience (even your own) is not a reliable reference for the way things are.
For many years most people believed witches existed and millions were burnt at the stake.
Eighty percent of Americans believe that Jesus will be coming back in their lifetime.
Many people think Obama knows what he is doing.
Never do delusional people think they are delusional.
Do you believe that humans the only organism that have free will?
What about my dog?
Can birds and fish choose their own actions?
How about shrimp and clams?
Does a mosquito choose whom they are going to bite.
Can bacteria and virus seek out their victims?
It’s apparent that all living organisms do not have free will.
At what point in their evolution did homo sapiens acquire this amazing ability?
Do you think it was maybe ten thousand….....or a hundred thousand years ago?

Yes, personal experience can be faulty. I do not deny that. But, the level of experience for the will and the self is much larger than the level of experience for witches or UFOs. There are in fact, very very few people who doubt that they are free persons. Furthermore, this is not second hand testimony. This is first hand testimony.

“It’s apparent that all living organisms do not have free will.”

You have to prove this! Stating that is “apparent” is no evidence whatsoever. So please present your evidence.

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Enlightenment is man’s emergence from his self-incurred immaturity.

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Posted: 16 August 2012 02:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 129 ]  
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kikl - 16 August 2012 02:37 PM
toombaru - 16 August 2012 02:34 PM

Sure, there is lot’s of evidence, for example my personal experience as well as the experience of many other people who claim to act according to their will. They tell you, I did that because I wanted to. So there is lots and lots of testimony. You however believe that these are all illusions. So in this case, the burden of proof is on your side. The evidence overwhelmingly supports my case.

Regards,

Kikl

Most people think they have free will but personal experience (even your own) is not a reliable reference for the way things are.
For many years most people believed witches existed and millions were burnt at the stake.
Eighty percent of Americans believe that Jesus will be coming back in their lifetime.
Many people think Obama knows what he is doing.
Never do delusional people think they are delusional.
Do you believe that humans the only organism that have free will?
What about my dog?
Can birds and fish choose their own actions?
How about shrimp and clams?
Does a mosquito choose whom they are going to bite.
Can bacteria and virus seek out their victims?
It’s apparent that all living organisms do not have free will.
At what point in their evolution did homo sapiens acquire this amazing ability?
Do you think it was maybe ten thousand….....or a hundred thousand years ago?

Yes, personal experience can be faulty. I do not deny that. But, the level of experience for the will and the self is much larger than the level of experience for witches or UFOs. There are in fact, very very few people who doubt that they are free persons. Furthermore, this is not second hand testimony. This is first hand testimony.

“It’s apparent that all living organisms do not have free will.”

You have to prove this! Stating that is “apparent” is no evidence whatsoever. So please present your evidence.


There is no such thing as free will.
It is an invention of the conceptual mind as is its imaginary self.
It is impossible to disprove the existence of a thing that has no actual reality.
I’m afraid the the burden of proof falls on your shoulders.
Other than your “feeling” that free will exists, what evidence or research validates your thinking?
Remember, when you were dreaming last night, you felt that all those people were real.
Where did they come from?
Where are they now?

 

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Posted: 16 August 2012 02:52 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 130 ]  
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toombaru - 16 August 2012 02:48 PM

...There is no such thing as free will.
It is an invention of the conceptual mind as is its imaginary self.
It is impossible to disprove the existence of a thing that has no actual reality.
I’m afraid the the burden of proof falls on your shoulders.
Other than your “feeling” that free will exists, what evidence or research validates your thinking?
Remember, when you were dreaming last night, you felt that all those people were real.
Where did they come from?
Where are they now?

I can usually tell dreams and reality apart, when I wake up. You provide no evidence and no arguments. So this is purely an argument of faith on your side. Free will is a dream, an illusion.

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Enlightenment is man’s emergence from his self-incurred immaturity.

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Posted: 16 August 2012 02:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 131 ]  
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kikl - 16 August 2012 02:52 PM
toombaru - 16 August 2012 02:48 PM

...There is no such thing as free will.
It is an invention of the conceptual mind as is its imaginary self.
It is impossible to disprove the existence of a thing that has no actual reality.
I’m afraid the the burden of proof falls on your shoulders.
Other than your “feeling” that free will exists, what evidence or research validates your thinking?
Remember, when you were dreaming last night, you felt that all those people were real.
Where did they come from?
Where are they now?

I can usually tell dreams and reality apart, when I wake up. You provide no evidence and no arguments. So this is purely an argument of faith on your side. Free will is a dream, an illusion.

 

“Usually”?
There are numerous books that invalidate the concept of free will.
Have you read Sam’s book yet?
Have you read anything on the subject?
I can get you a list if you would be open up that mind that you think of as yours.

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Posted: 16 August 2012 03:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 132 ]  
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toombaru - 16 August 2012 02:59 PM
kikl - 16 August 2012 02:52 PM
toombaru - 16 August 2012 02:48 PM

...There is no such thing as free will.
It is an invention of the conceptual mind as is its imaginary self.
It is impossible to disprove the existence of a thing that has no actual reality.
I’m afraid the the burden of proof falls on your shoulders.
Other than your “feeling” that free will exists, what evidence or research validates your thinking?
Remember, when you were dreaming last night, you felt that all those people were real.
Where did they come from?
Where are they now?

I can usually tell dreams and reality apart, when I wake up. You provide no evidence and no arguments. So this is purely an argument of faith on your side. Free will is a dream, an illusion.

 

“Usually”?
There are numerous books that invalidate the concept of free will.
Have you read Sam’s book yet?
Have you read anything on the subject?
I can get you a list if you would be open up that mind that you think of as yours.

So now you appeal to authority. You just keep repeating over and over again: “It’s just an illusion” But, you provide no evidence and no argument whatsoever.

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Posted: 16 August 2012 03:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 133 ]  
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kikl - 16 August 2012 03:01 PM
toombaru - 16 August 2012 02:59 PM
kikl - 16 August 2012 02:52 PM
toombaru - 16 August 2012 02:48 PM

...There is no such thing as free will.
It is an invention of the conceptual mind as is its imaginary self.
It is impossible to disprove the existence of a thing that has no actual reality.
I’m afraid the the burden of proof falls on your shoulders.
Other than your “feeling” that free will exists, what evidence or research validates your thinking?
Remember, when you were dreaming last night, you felt that all those people were real.
Where did they come from?
Where are they now?

I can usually tell dreams and reality apart, when I wake up. You provide no evidence and no arguments. So this is purely an argument of faith on your side. Free will is a dream, an illusion.

 

“Usually”?
There are numerous books that invalidate the concept of free will.
Have you read Sam’s book yet?
Have you read anything on the subject?
I can get you a list if you would be open up that mind that you think of as yours.

So now you appeal to authority. You just keep repeating over and over again: “It’s just an illusion” But, you provide no evidence and no argument whatsoever.

 

I do appeal to authority.
You seek only your own.
If you refuse do access the vast amount of research that invalidates the concept of free will, there is no point in continuing this conversation
.

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Posted: 16 August 2012 03:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 134 ]  
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toombaru - 16 August 2012 03:07 PM

——I do appeal to authority.
You seek only your own.
If you refuse do access the vast amount of research that invalidates the concept of free will, there is no point in continuing this conversation
.

What a misinterpretation of my argument. I am referring to innumerable first person testimony and you reject all of it claiming it is all an illusion without any evidence whatsoever!

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Enlightenment is man’s emergence from his self-incurred immaturity.

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Posted: 16 August 2012 03:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 135 ]  
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kikl - 16 August 2012 03:09 PM
toombaru - 16 August 2012 03:07 PM

——I do appeal to authority.
You seek only your own.
If you refuse do access the vast amount of research that invalidates the concept of free will, there is no point in continuing this conversation
.

What a misinterpretation of my argument. I am referring to innumerable first person testimony and you reject all of it claiming it is all an illusion without any evidence whatsoever!


Your argument is based only on how you feel.

 

 

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