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A Theological Conundrum
Posted: 05 April 2012 01:22 PM   [ Ignore ]  
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An omnipotent God could not have freewill.

[ Edited: 05 April 2012 03:21 PM by toombaru]
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Posted: 13 April 2012 12:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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I don’t think that necessarily follows… although you could argue that an omniscient god could not have freewill.


However, I would toss out some contradictions here to back up your theme and see what responses a Christian might give…


An omniscient god cannot have freewill.

An omnipotent god cannot be immortal.

An omnipotent god cannot be changeless.

An intelligent god cannot be changeless.

An omnipotent and omnibenevolent god cannot coexist with Hell.

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Posted: 13 April 2012 07:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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FIverBeyond - 13 April 2012 12:53 PM

I don’t think that necessarily follows… although you could argue that an omniscient god could not have freewill.


However, I would toss out some contradictions here to back up your theme and see what responses a Christian might give…


An omniscient god cannot have freewill.

An omnipotent god cannot be immortal.

An omnipotent god cannot be changeless.

An intelligent god cannot be changeless.

An omnipotent and omnibenevolent god cannot coexist with Hell.


An omnipotent God would know beforehand which choices He would be making on any given set of circumstances.
He would know which prayers He was going to grant and which He was going to deny.
If He had free will, He could change His mind but that also would be foreseen.
It’s a hell of a problem that doesn’t even exist.
LOL

 

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Posted: 14 April 2012 11:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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toombaru - 13 April 2012 07:58 PM
FIverBeyond - 13 April 2012 12:53 PM

I don’t think that necessarily follows… although you could argue that an omniscient god could not have freewill.

An omnipotent God would know beforehand which choices He would be making on any given set of circumstances.

Ok. A god with infinite power. Who could argue that? It wouldn’t even need to make a decision as to which of the millions upon millions of prayers it receives each day it would answer because it already knows who it wants in heaven. It already knows who it will not save (kill?) via ‘natural’ disasters, disease and famine. All that stuff is in the plan right? Next question please!

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Posted: 14 April 2012 11:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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TomSkelcher - 14 April 2012 11:37 AM
toombaru - 13 April 2012 07:58 PM
FIverBeyond - 13 April 2012 12:53 PM

I don’t think that necessarily follows… although you could argue that an omniscient god could not have freewill.

An omnipotent God would know beforehand which choices He would be making on any given set of circumstances.

Ok. A god with infinite power. Who could argue that? It wouldn’t even need to make a decision as to which of the millions upon millions of prayers it receives each day it would answer because it already knows who it wants in heaven. It already knows who it will not save (kill?) via ‘natural’ disasters, disease and famine. All that stuff is in the plan right? Next question please!


Can an omnipotent God have a plan?

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Posted: 14 April 2012 12:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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toombaru - 14 April 2012 11:55 AM
TomSkelcher - 14 April 2012 11:37 AM
toombaru - 13 April 2012 07:58 PM
FIverBeyond - 13 April 2012 12:53 PM

I don’t think that necessarily follows… although you could argue that an omniscient god could not have freewill.

An omnipotent God would know beforehand which choices He would be making on any given set of circumstances.

Ok. A god with infinite power. Who could argue that?... All that stuff is in the plan right? Next question please!

Can an omnipotent God have a plan?

Can an omnipotent god be consciousness of anything? In my view an omnipotent god would be the universe. It would be consciousness. The consciousness of us, of the universe, of every electron and every photon. All encompassing. It doesn’t ‘think’ in a way we can comprehend so no. It can’t have a plan.

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Posted: 14 April 2012 12:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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TomSkelcher - 14 April 2012 12:12 PM
toombaru - 14 April 2012 11:55 AM
TomSkelcher - 14 April 2012 11:37 AM
toombaru - 13 April 2012 07:58 PM
FIverBeyond - 13 April 2012 12:53 PM

I don’t think that necessarily follows… although you could argue that an omniscient god could not have freewill.

An omnipotent God would know beforehand which choices He would be making on any given set of circumstances.

Ok. A god with infinite power. Who could argue that?... All that stuff is in the plan right? Next question please!

Can an omnipotent God have a plan?

Can an omnipotent god be consciousness of anything? In my view an omnipotent god would be the universe. It would be consciousness. The consciousness of us, of the universe, of every electron and every photon. All encompassing. It doesn’t ‘think’ in a way we can comprehend so no. It can’t have a plan.

 

Can consciousness be aware of itself?

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Posted: 14 April 2012 01:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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toombaru - 14 April 2012 12:43 PM

Can consciousness be aware of itself?

This is the Christian board, toombaru. The Christian god is aware of itself. It continually makes choices and decisions as it passes judgement on our actions and thoughts. We all have our own free will so this must be the case.

The standard definition of consciousness is that it relates to the ‘minds’ interaction with the world/life/everything but consciousness as we know it is only what we perceive to be consciousness.

As we experience what we perceive to be conscious then it could be argued that consciousness can be aware of itself. So if an omnipotent god is all things. If it is all matter.. perceived matter, perceived consciousness no less, then we are ‘god’. We are consciousness. It is us and we are it.

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Posted: 14 April 2012 02:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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TomSkelcher - 14 April 2012 01:14 PM
toombaru - 14 April 2012 12:43 PM

Can consciousness be aware of itself?

This is the Christian board, toombaru. The Christian god is aware of itself. It continually makes choices and decisions as it passes judgement on our actions and thoughts. We all have our own free will so this must be the case.

The standard definition of consciousness is that it relates to the ‘minds’ interaction with the world/life/everything but consciousness as we know it is only what we perceive to be consciousness.

As we experience what we perceive to be conscious then it could be argued that consciousness can be aware of itself. So if an omnipotent god is all things. If it is all matter.. perceived matter, perceived consciousness no less, then we are ‘god’. We are consciousness. It is us and we are it.


Only consciousness could come up with the idea that it is part of something that it imagines to be higher than itself.
If God is all things, He is all possible decisions.
How can He choose between things that comprise his own totality?
If consciousness is aware of itself, is it aware that it aware of itself?

 

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Posted: 14 April 2012 03:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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toombaru - 14 April 2012 02:55 PM
TomSkelcher - 14 April 2012 01:14 PM
toombaru - 14 April 2012 12:43 PM

Can consciousness be aware of itself?

This is the Christian board, toombaru. The Christian god is aware of itself. It continually makes choices and decisions as it passes judgement on our actions and thoughts. We all have our own free will so this must be the case.
The standard definition of consciousness is that it relates to the ‘minds’ interaction with the world/life/everything but consciousness as we know it is only what we perceive to be consciousness.
As we experience what we perceive to be conscious then it could be argued that consciousness can be aware of itself. So if an omnipotent god is all things. If it is all matter.. perceived matter, perceived consciousness no less, then we are ‘god’. We are consciousness. It is us and we are it.

Only consciousness could come up with the idea that it is part of something that it imagines to be higher than itself.
If consciousness is aware of itself, is it aware that it aware of itself?

The universe and everything isn’t higher than consciousness. It is conciousness. We are the universe. So could only consciousness come up with that idea? Can consciousness come up with any ideas? Consciousness is nothing, it is a perceived reality. You may think you are conscious of yourself but you can only speculate.

toombaru - 14 April 2012 02:55 PM

If God is all things, He is all possible decisions. How can He choose between things that comprise his own totality?

You have answered your own question there.

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Posted: 14 April 2012 05:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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TomSkelcher - 14 April 2012 03:51 PM
toombaru - 14 April 2012 02:55 PM
TomSkelcher - 14 April 2012 01:14 PM
toombaru - 14 April 2012 12:43 PM

Can consciousness be aware of itself?

This is the Christian board, toombaru. The Christian god is aware of itself. It continually makes choices and decisions as it passes judgement on our actions and thoughts. We all have our own free will so this must be the case.

 


Have you read Sam’s little book “Free Will”?

 

The standard definition of consciousness is that it relates to the ‘minds’ interaction with the world/life/everything but consciousness as we know it is only what we perceive to be consciousness.
As we experience what we perceive to be conscious then it could be argued that consciousness can be aware of itself. So if an omnipotent god is all things. If it is all matter.. perceived matter, perceived consciousness no less, then we are ‘god’. We are consciousness. It is us and we are it.

 


With a little serious thought, one can no longer believe that they have free will.
The brain is actually making the “decision” and the “person” emerges to take credit.
If there is no such thing as free will, there is no such thing as the self.
If there is no self, there is no god.

 

 


Only consciousness could come up with the idea that it is part of something that it imagines to be higher than itself.
If consciousness is aware of itself, is it aware that it aware of itself?

The universe and everything isn’t higher than consciousness. It is conciousness. We are the universe. So could only consciousness come up with that idea? Can consciousness come up with any ideas? Consciousness is nothing, it is a perceived reality. You may think you are conscious of yourself but you can only speculate.

toombaru - 14 April 2012 02:55 PM

If God is all things, He is all possible decisions. How can He choose between things that comprise his own totality?

You have answered your own question there.

 


“Consciousness” cannot be aware of itself simply because it is not a thing.
It is a conceptual construct that the thinking mind has come up with to label its own observed sentience.
It is an adjective not a noun.
And the sense of self merely a collage of swirling mnemonic debris locked in its own conceptual overlay imagining that it is the entire universe.


I can’t do the box thing very well but there are additional comments above.

I admire your sincere effort to express your perspective.
Usually those with a religious take on things are not so willing to address serious questions regarding their faith.

 

 

 

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Posted: 15 April 2012 01:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
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Haha Do I make a good Christian? I’m as religious as teapot. Wholly on the side of Mr Harris. I am yet to read ANY of his books (terrible I know) but I have watched nearly all of his lectures/debates (that I can find for free online - I’m watching the The Four Horsemen right now!). I’ve read Dawkins and I keep meaning to buy some of Sams literature.

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Posted: 15 April 2012 09:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
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TomSkelcher - 15 April 2012 01:06 AM

Haha Do I make a good Christian? I’m as religious as teapot. Wholly on the side of Mr Harris. I am yet to read ANY of his books (terrible I know) but I have watched nearly all of his lectures/debates (that I can find for free online - I’m watching the The Four Horsemen right now!). I’ve read Dawkins and I keep meaning to buy some of Sams literature.


Sorry.
I assumed that the following was a statement of your personal beliefs:

“This is the Christian board, toombaru. The Christian god is aware of itself. It continually makes choices and decisions as it passes judgement on our actions and thoughts. We all have our own free will so this must be the case.

The standard definition of consciousness is that it relates to the ‘minds’ interaction with the world/life/everything but consciousness as we know it is only what we perceive to be consciousness.

As we experience what we perceive to be conscious then it could be argued that consciousness can be aware of itself. So if an omnipotent god is all things. If it is all matter.. perceived matter, perceived consciousness no less, then we are ‘god’. We are consciousness. It is us and we are it.”

Perhaps we are on the same page…......if there were such a thing as pagers.


grin

 

 

 

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Posted: 15 April 2012 09:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]  
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Certainly smile

So which book do you recommend I start with?

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Posted: 15 April 2012 10:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]  
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TomSkelcher - 15 April 2012 09:50 AM

Certainly smile

So which book do you recommend I start with?


I have read them all.
I think his views on the nature of morality and free will are ill founded but Sam is extremely good at dismantling the natural inclination of the mind to gravitate to religious thought when it can’t answer questions concerning its own origin and future.
If your mind hasn’t woven a web of magical thought, there is no particular reason to have the roots of religion ripped out but if you are inclined to believe that the mind can draw an accurate picture of what it calls reality,  perhaps a good dose of Hitchens, Dawkins and Harris would alleviate the fever.
Here the concept of self is seen as the nexus of the problem.
And until that is apperceived one is left to flounder in its own personal shadowland.
The mind creates a conceptual overlay from which it ponders its own pseudo-reality.
It wonders about the origin of “morality” and “free will” when in fact there are no such things.
It mistakes its labels for actualities.
The search for relevance arises when the personal identity is seen as having its own existential reality.
The I am emerges within, and is no different than, the conceptual map that the mind of man creates.
It searches for meaning where there is none
The only difference between the “enlightened” ones and the common folk is in one of them the sense of self has lost its opacity and imaginary edges have blended into a vast mystery.
And That is what one becomes.

 

[ Edited: 15 April 2012 01:29 PM by toombaru]
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Posted: 05 July 2012 08:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]  
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toombaru - 05 April 2012 01:22 PM

An omnipotent God could not have freewill.

What is your definition of “free will?”
 
Merriam-Webster defines “free will” as ” voluntary choice or decision” and “ freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention.”

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