Sam Harris

Hey folks,

I need your help. This morning I had an hour discussion with two nice ladies from the local Jehovah’s Witnesses. While it was thoroughly entertaining and a good opportunity to eek out exactly how much propaganda is involved in their spin, I was caught unprepared and so ended up jumping around from evolution to biblical contradictions to authorship of the bible and ended with questions of theodicy. Unfortunately due to time constraints and lack of proper planning I was unable to follow through to conclusion any of my arguments beyond an initial introduction of said arguments. Possible because I wanted to cover everything in 30 min.

While I think I was able plant a few seeds of doubt, I wasn’t all that happy with my tangent ridden session. Don’t get me wrong it was still a blast!. Having said this I am delighted to say they will be returning next week Sat to do a ‘bible study’, which if I decide to record, might be my first youtube upload.

So…I was hoping to get whatever feedback you are able or willing to give. I would like to be in a position to provide a nice overall multi pronged consideration of their views…you know, a bit of everything, a smorgasbord of infidelity.

Any feedback…or not, would be fine…even Christian, Jwits, Jewish or muslim etc.

Cheers
PBT

PainfulButTrue - 19 May 2012 09:54 AM

Hey folks,

I need your help. This morning I had an hour discussion with two nice ladies from the local Jehovah’s Witnesses. While it was thoroughly entertaining and a good opportunity to eek out exactly how much propaganda is involved in their spin, I was caught unprepared and so ended up jumping around from evolution to biblical contradictions to authorship of the bible and ended with questions of theodicy. Unfortunately due to time constraints and lack of proper planning I was unable to follow through to conclusion any of my arguments beyond an initial introduction of said arguments. Possible because I wanted to cover everything in 30 min.

While I think I was able plant a few seeds of doubt, I wasn’t all that happy with my tangent ridden session. Don’t get me wrong it was still a blast!. Having said this I am delighted to say they will be returning next week Sat to do a ‘bible study’, which if I decide to record, might be my first youtube upload.

So…I was hoping to get whatever feedback you are able or willing to give. I would like to be in a position to provide a nice overall multi pronged consideration of their views…you know, a bit of everything, a smorgasbord of infidelity.

Any feedback…or not, would be fine…even Christian, Jwits, Jewish or muslim etc.

Cheers
PBT

They actually believe that if you are not a Witness you are the devil.
So any logical argument you offer will be discounted.
It’s alright to have some fun with them but don’t delude yourself with hopes of converting them to a fact based belief structure.

Ah a kindred spirit!

I did what you are doing.  I spent a couple of years allowing myself to bounce in and out of some of the various cults…

I was raised Mormon.  I no longer believe, but practice tolerance.  It’s that or be ostracized from loved ones… sigh.

Anyhow.  In order to deprogram from Mormonism to a sufficient level where I could begin to think on my own two feet, I studied and met with Eckists (new agers), JW’s, Catholics, Muslims, Evangelicals, Jews and oh yes… Scientologists.  It was exhillerating and enlightening.  The more I learned that ALL OF THEM were equally convinced that THEY were the only true representation of God on earth just as I had been re: Mormonism… only then did my mind begin to allow for freedom of head space.

The JW’s are steeped in cult-speak and are quite entrenched from various mind control techniques.  Nothing new here.  Your bantering with them might be most effective if you stick to the one salient point that ALL religions with powerfully forceful exclusivity claims to defend have crackpot science and scientists who are able to twist and turn all sorts of posture into “proofs” that THEY ALONE hold the one and abiding truth that the rest of the world just doesn’t seem to get.  They ALL do this.  They ALL have online forums that “PROVE” how true they are and how false the rest are… well, maybe not the Jews but you get the idea.

It’s hilarious. and fun.

Start by asking a question that frames my last paragraph then ask “If the WatchTower group was false, would you want to know?” and follow with “If the WatchTower group WAS FALSE… how would you know?”

Before you go toe to toe with them, I suggest you read Steve Hassan’s “Combatting Cult Mind Control”.  It’s extremely well written and will serve as great primer for discusssion.  Hassan’s deprogramming from the Moonies is a fascinating read.

Noggin - 23 May 2012 09:14 PM

Ah a kindred spirit!

I did what you are doing.  I spent a couple of years allowing myself to bounce in and out of some of the various cults…

I was raised Mormon.  I no longer believe, but practice tolerance.  It’s that or be ostracized from loved ones… sigh.

Anyhow.  In order to deprogram from Mormonism to a sufficient level where I could begin to think on my own two feet, I studied and met with Eckists (new agers), JW’s, Catholics, Muslims, Evangelicals, Jews and oh yes… Scientologists.  It was exhillerating and enlightening.  The more I learned that ALL OF THEM were equally convinced that THEY were the only true representation of God on earth just as I had been re: Mormonism… only then did my mind begin to allow for freedom of head space.

The JW’s are steeped in cult-speak and are quite entrenched from various mind control techniques.  Nothing new here.  Your bantering with them might be most effective if you stick to the one salient point that ALL religions with powerfully forceful exclusivity claims to defend have crackpot science and scientists who are able to twist and turn all sorts of posture into “proofs” that THEY ALONE hold the one and abiding truth that the rest of the world just doesn’t seem to get.  They ALL do this.  They ALL have online forums that “PROVE” how true they are and how false the rest are… well, maybe not the Jews but you get the idea.

It’s hilarious. and fun.

Start by asking a question that frames my last paragraph then ask “If the WatchTower group was false, would you want to know?” and follow with “If the WatchTower group WAS FALSE… how would you know?”

Before you go toe to toe with them, I suggest you read Steve Hassan’s “Combatting Cult Mind Control”.  It’s extremely well written and will serve as great primer for discusssion.  Hassan’s deprogramming from the Moonies is a fascinating read.

There is no reason to “deprogram” them.
Unless they threaten to kill you for your beliefs there is no reason to pay them any attention at all.
Keep in mind that they are not persons with beliefs; they are a collage of beliefs that create a person.
(As are you).

I was raised jw from birth to the age of 18 at that point I was legally allowed to leave home. Witnesses are programed to turn their back on even family to protect their belief system. There is nothing you can say to change their minds. You are no match for the church, It is their whole world and when I say world I mean it. All their family,friends and in a lot of cases employers/employees are jw’s. The only person who can pull them of of that dark sick church is themselves.
The above response is very true, people who talk badly of the religion or ask questions to it’s followers are from the devil. Why would anything you say change their minds when it’s just satan testing them and trying to shake their faith.

Sadly the only way to exit that cult is to undergo years of abuse and mental torture until you are left with three choices submit to the religion, kill yourself or turn your back on your family,friends,home and job and leave with only the shirt on your back.
I choose to leave and still to this day nothing in that situation has changed. There is nothing you can say to change their minds and if you keep talking to them they will never leave you alone.