Sam Harris

There are amazing reasons why we Christians have faith. The most portant one is the fact that Jesus Christ died for our sins on the cross. But it was more than that, much more.

He suffered greatly that day. A clear picture of what occurred emerges as one reads through the Old Testament (if your name is Howard Dean, that would be the front part of the book, written over the course of 4 thousand years, the last book of which was written 600 years before Jesus walked the earth).

What did it say about that day? The picture is brutal and frightening. Worse than any hollywood could conjur up. Some of the info is spoken in the first person, which .....(it has a marvelous ending…so stick with it):

- Then all the disciples deserted him and fled
- He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering
- False witnesses did rise up; they laid to my charge things that I knew not
- Roaring lions tearing their prey open their mouths wide against me
- He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth
- They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him.
- ...and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair…
- I hid not my face from shame and spitting
- The palace guards, they each spat and struck Him in the face.
- "battered, bruised, dehydrated, and exhausted from a sleepless night"
- He was oppressed…...afflicted….....like a lamb that is led to the slaughter
- He had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified
- But He was sourged/wounded for our transgressions
- He was beaten/bruised for our guilt and iniquities;
- with the stripes [that wounded] Him we are healed and made whole
- I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting
- My strength is dried up; [with thirst] my tongue cleaves to my jaws
- stripped him and put a scarlet robe on him
- then twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on his head {copious bleeding}
- They spit on him, struck him on the head again and again.
- Jesus was then beaten by the Roman soldiers
- They put gall in my food and gave me vinegar for my thirst
- robe is torn from his back
- I can count all my bones
- "heavy beam of the cross is then tied across His shoulders"
- "great waves of cramps sweep over the muscles"
- they have pierced my hands and my feet
- they will look on Me whom they pierced
- all my bones are out of joint
- his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any man and his form marred beyond human likeness
- many would be appalled at this Servant’s appearance
- that His appearance was not as that of a son of a man
- He himself bore our sins in his body upon the cross
- My heart has turned to wax; it has melted away within me
- my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth
- people stare and gloat over me
- Jesus called out with a loud voice, 'Father, into your hands I commit my spirit'." When he had said this, he breathed his last
- one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear

Later on:Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. Revelation 5:6

Reason for the suffering:
- Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life
- The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down on my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father

Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me"

Why you would look to Hollywood to provide an example of severe suffering is beyond me.  There are plenty of examples to choose from in the real world.  As a mother, I might fear for my own well-being and hope to die a clean and peaceful death, but to have to watch my children be tortured would be my ultimate undoing. 

Think of the millions of families tormented by the Nazis, all the parents who stood holding hands with their children as they lined up to be shot; think of all the men who had to shovel the bodies of their family members into the ovens; think of all the African slaves who were packed into holds of ships who watched family members die of suffocation, starvation and disease, think of those same survivors who then had to watch their children be sold on the auction block, think of the families who had to watch their brothers or fathers be lynched.  Or think of the more recent atrocities ... think of the people who were hacked and chopped to death in Rwanda, or think of the women being raped and tortured in the Sudan, or think of the 9-year-old little girl here in Quebec whose step-father drove her to a scrapyard, raped and beat her and left her for dead, or the millions of other children around the globe being sexually and physically abused.  How is Jesus’ suffering greater than any of these? 

If your post was meant to manipulate my sense of compassion and guilt me into reclaiming religion, it has failed.  It has instead succeeded in proving yet again that religion serves only to interfere with true compassion.  The religious are too caught up in the drama of Jesus life and how it supposedly affects their own that they are oblivious to the horrors taken place right under their noses.  Hollywood ...  give me a break. 

Susan

Susan, I’d just like to say that I enjoy reading your posts. I find them very wholesome. Thanks

Luke

——If you know you are, then you know your purpose——

[quote author=“TheChampion”]
The picture is brutal and frightening. Worse than any hollywood could conjur up.

Yea, Jesus did some cool stuff in that joint, but this cat named Muhammad did some wicked cool miracles in the sequel.

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It’s people like you that make people like me act like people like you - G Marx

OK Champ, you have ignored all of my serious questions so I have new question. Obviously, this is just a hypothetical question.

Based on a literal reading of the respective literatures, who would win a fight between Jesus and Muhammad?

They both have some really cool super powers.

I probably don’t have to tell you this, but please support your assertions with scripture.

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“Hatred is the coward’s revenge for being intimidated.” - George Bernard Shaw

[quote author=“TheChampion”]He suffered greatly that day. A clear picture of what occurred emerges as one reads through the Old Testament (if your name is Howard Dean, that would be the front part of the book, written over the course of 4 thousand years, the last book of which was written 600 years before Jesus walked the earth).

?????????? Jesus in the Old Testament??????  No wonder I didn’t pass Sunday school class.

The picture is brutal and frightening.

Yes that does remind me greatly of the suffering imposed on Muslim citizens by your hero... GW Bush.  Remember, those people we were helping to find freedom and democracy?  Those citizens who were arrested, jailed, and tortured in Iraqi prisons?  Not to mention the citizens were were brutally treated in their own homes?  How many tens of thousands of human beings has he already killed to further his faith in his great savior?  I think he is certainly going to need a savior, but I don’t think this Jesus guy is going to be anywhere around to help him!

Not to mention the citizens were were brutally treated in their own homes? How many tens of thousands of human beings has he already killed to further his faith in his great savior?

I think you are confusing Bush with Saddam…

OK, Champion, so he suffered and died on the cross. Maybe. If he ever lived at all, that is. If the story is true, it is tragic and horrifying. But why any more so than all the other horrors and cruelties that have been mentioned in this thread?

And how can one person’s suffering and dying “save” anyone else?  This is an utterly ridiculous proposition which makes no sense. Why should anyone believe it, just because someone else is foolish enough to believe it is true? This is primitive hocus-pocus.

I’ve been reading your posts in this forum long enough to see that you are convincing no one, and are clearly barking up the wrong tree. Why not give it up?

I’ve been reading your posts in this forum long enough to see that you are convincing no one, and are clearly barking up the wrong tree. Why not give it up?

COURAGE. It didn’t come, it doesn’t matter.

[quote author=“Islander”]I’ve been reading your posts in this forum long enough to see that you are convincing no one, and are clearly barking up the wrong tree. Why not give it up?

Because so many people continue to respond and attempt to engage him.  Hope springs eternal in the breast (not in the brain!)

It was foretold that he would suffer. But the important thing is he conquered death and rose again.

So what is wrong with barking up the wrong tree? What happens if we get one convert? Is that not worth it?

[quote author=“TheChampion”]It was foretold that he would suffer. But the important thing is he conquered death and rose again.

So what is wrong with barking up the wrong tree? What happens if we get one convert? Is that not worth it?

3

Of course it’s worth it Champ, keep up the good work. By the way I’m on a first name basis with God so I’ll be sure to point out your good deeds again and again and again for etnerity. amen

[quote author=“TheChampion”]So what is wrong with barking up the wrong tree? What happens if we get one convert? Is that not worth it?

If you look at it ergonomically, given the same amount of effort you’ve put in here, if you spent it on a more credulous, less intellectually responisble group, you may have already converted several people. Here you rate an amusement, which is fine, but not the most intelligent focus of energy. You need to go find a more cheerleader-oriented crowd and send the best philosopher your church has to offer this way—if your goal is really to recruit converts (personally I think your real motivation is about psychological issues).

Byron

[quote author=“TheChampion”]It was foretold that he would suffer. But the important thing is he conquered death and rose again.

So what is wrong with barking up the wrong tree? What happens if we get one convert? Is that not worth it?

Dont think youll get a convert around here. But you might keep in mind that there were a number of people nailed to a cross. Not just three.  And I imagined they all suffered. Whats the point? What good does that do? I think you ducked the question put to you earlier.