[quote author=“g.wood”]You young whippersnapper, don’t you know that the mainstream Christian churches (Northern, Southern, White, Black) were a major force in the—get this—Civil Rights Movement (MLK, etc.) of the 1960s? They used to send busloads of people to march and witness. Catholic nuns in habit were a common sight. Later, to a lesser extent, they opposed the Viet Nam War. Today, they seem to be largely silent on the current life-wasting boondoggle in Iraq. Too busy wringing their hands about abortion and gay rights, it looks like. I think their priorities have become muddled.
You can thank JPII for all that. Look up the people he made saints. They mostly fall into anti-Communist, pro-fascist categories.
...Alan Watts who says that we must avoid confusing the sign with that which is signified.
“This is not a pipe.” Same thing, precedes Watts by decades. Irrelevant. Dadaist prankstering.
Ceci n’est pas une pipe? Magritte also wrote “I would have lied if I had written ‘This is a pipe’ on the picture… Just try stuffing it with tobacco and smoking it!” (Paraphrasing.)
In my first physics class at Berkeley, the TA opened our first session by writing on the board, “One may use a finger to point at the moon, but a finger is not the moon” and asked what it meant to us. Earnest pre-med students who were only there for the credit gazed back open-mouthed. The TA was Asian and may have tagged the statement as a “Zen saying”. He was embarrassed that his opening fell so flat. I expect he had taken some time coming up with it and thought Berkeley students would appreciate. So I dragged up the thing about the map is not the territory… I figured what he was trying to get at is that physics is not reality, but is a way of looking at reality. Not sure because on top of the embarrassment there was a language barrier.
OK, let’s just assume for a moment that the bible is not true, and that the biblical god is just an extension of previous god figures from history. I know you don’t believe this and think that this is a false argument, but lets play, ok? Let’s pretend that the Bible is a work of fiction created by men with their own personal agendas as a mishmash of the myths and legends of their contemporary literature.
Now what? Ball’s back in your court.
Well, nothing. I would not change the way I live my life. And I would never be sorry for living my life according to the Bible. It has never done me harm, nor has it done anyone else harm who has been affected by me, but on the contrary has only brought blessings. If I am wrong I have nothing to lose, but if you are wrong, you have everything to lose.
Woofers, you said that you disagree with my assessment that God can do whatever He wants. You said you disagree. Well, who is going to stop Him? And if He is real, then who are YOU to judge His actions? That was why I was asking you to assume the Bible is true. But nobody wants to think about that possibility.
Then you said that God cannot be uncomprehendable. I never said that. I said that there is more about Him then we could ever possibly know on this side of heaven. We know He wants worship because he says he wants worship. What he has chosen to reveal about Himself, we will be responsible to act on. Again, if He created this world and He is perfect in holiness, then he deserves worship.
Then you asked me at what age I became a Christian. The answer is about 6 years ago. Yes, I was taken to church when I was little, but I was not raised in a Christian home at all. This argument of children being brainwashed is baloney. I can name 2 former atheists right now that came to Christ in their adult life having no Christian upbringing. Allister McGrath who debated Richard Dawkins for The Root of All Evil and then Lee Strobel, a journalist who wrote THe Case for Christ. There are thousands more whose lives have been transformed by the power of the Gospel. Mine has.
Then you brought up the OT laws as you all seem to love to do around here. God wants us to know how seriously he takes sin, for instance in stoning rebellious children. And you are right, Jesus did not come to abolish the Law, but fulfilled it perfectly, all of it. That is where my hope lies, in His righteousness. And stoning my children is no longer an option, and not one I would want to use.
Namaste, you asked me for a list of books I have read for the other side. At this point I can only name 2. The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins and Letter to a Christian Nation. I don’t have much time to read, but that doesn’t mean I have stopped there.
I didn’t recognize any of the books you mentioned except the one by Rick Warren. Are they in support of the Bible or not? And thanks for “humoring” me.
I just started reading A Case for Christ by Lee Strobel, a former atheist who decided to investigate the reliability of the Gospels, became convinced they are, and became a Christian.
Happy Heathen, I have educated myself enough on evolution enough to know that it has not convinced me. And you will see if you read back far enough that I am very openminded about it. That is all I can write on that at the moment.
And now I must go and won’t be back for a couple weeks.
May God bless you all with the knowledge of Himself.
[quote author=“blessedmommyx5”]And now I must go and won’t be back for a couple weeks.
May God bless you all with the knowledge of Himself.
Ah, the parting shot. Such pomp. Such circumstance. For what seems like the nth time. Mommy, here, is a little like that character in the country song: How can I miss you if you won’t go away?
[quote author=“blessedmommyx5”] And you may think I am blindly stupid for believing it without empirical evidence and I accept that.
I do not think that. Instead, I suggest that non-empirical views of the universe amount to invasions of personal boundaries. Those views attempt to define people based on preconceived notions. The problem is not your belief in a god without evidence. The problem is your belief without evidence in a god that created humans, that gives orders to humans, that judges humans, and that causes events to happen. One cannot define events as caused by gods without concluding that the events are rewards or punishments from those gods. If you believed in a god that did not create the universe, did not give orders to humans, did not judge humans, and caused nothing to happen in the universe, your belief would probably be no one else’s concern.
[quote author=“M is for Malapert”]Why do so many people genuflect to the likes of Frank, Bruce, and Fletch? “Rigorous intellectual discussions” my eye.
And now Mommy. It seems like any theist who’s not raving or rude gets respect, unearned and undeserved.
I’m not sure BMx5 has earned that, but I’ve mostly (or “at most” may be a better way to put it) just been skimming things that aren’t responses to my own posts. I do get the sense the attention she’s garnered has developed into a very adversarial thing (THERE’S a surprise!), and she feels cornered ... which is understandable when you have 14 dozen people all assaulting you with questions and ideological challenges that raise difficult questions (if you’re honest about it) about how you understand reality to work on the most fundamental level—great stuff if you’re ready for it, but it can be on the unpleasant and ugly side if you’re not (largely because a lot of “our” 14 dozen aren’t really ready for such exchanges either). People have a range of fairly predictable emotional responses to such situations, and that’s just the way the species functions. What I’ve noticed from this fray falls pretty squarely under that description, but as I said, I haven’t been very carefully watching this little battlefield.
At any rate, I’ve asked that same question a few times myself (why the less rational/more hystrionic/less ideologically worthy posts grab so much attention). Tried to gather some data by making it it’s own topic once or twice too. Still don’t quite get it.
[quote author=“M is for Malapert”][quote author=“sambarge”]I’m almost a gay man myself. Well, I’m a straight woman but that’s pretty close to being a gay man, in a lot of ways.
Hah! Seriously, that’s funny.
A good friend of mine likes to say he’s a lesbian trapped in a man’s body (he’s basically saying he’s a male feminist ... and hoping he makes points with the ladies, of course).
[quote author=“blessedmommyx5”]
Woofers, you said that you disagree with my assessment that God can do whatever He wants. You said you disagree. Well, who is going to stop Him?
Just because nobody can stop him does that make it right that he can kill us just because he created us? He made us with thoughts, feelings, and emotions. There is no excuse for abuse, besides, he wouldn’t have to kill us, an omnimax diety would know that we’d have to be killed, and being loving would not create us then to spare us misery.
And if He is real, then who are YOU to judge His actions?
Well if God exists and is just as Christians say he is he would reward free thought and honesty, opposed to self-centered fear based on a threat of punishment.
Then you said that God cannot be uncomprehendable. I never said that. I said that there is more about Him then we could ever possibly know on this side of heaven. We know He wants worship because he says he wants worship. What he has chosen to reveal about Himself, we will be responsible to act on. Again, if He created this world and He is perfect in holiness, then he deserves worship.
Ok, so are you in agreement that he created Jeffrey Dahmer? Jeff Dahmer was a serial killer who ate the remains of his victims. Now he was a sadistic, megalomaniac, twisted dipshit, right? If so, then what are we think of the guy that created him this way? Jeffery Dahmer was just acting on the compulsions that our creator implanted in us. God acts as a deranged watchmaker, makes all kinds of faulty watches, then goes on to blame the watches for being faulty.
Then you asked me at what age I became a Christian. The answer is about 6 years ago. Yes, I was taken to church when I was little, but I was not raised in a Christian home at all. This argument of children being brainwashed is baloney. I can name 2 former atheists right now that came to Christ in their adult life having no Christian upbringing. Allister McGrath who debated Richard Dawkins for The Root of All Evil and then Lee Strobel, a journalist who wrote THe Case for Christ. There are thousands more whose lives have been transformed by the power of the Gospel. Mine has.
Wow, I didn’t think it was possible to convince an adult of sound mind of something that you cannot produce in front of you, but I stand corrected. :D
Then you brought up the OT laws as you all seem to love to do around here. God wants us to know how seriously he takes sin, for instance in stoning rebellious children. And you are right, Jesus did not come to abolish the Law, but fulfilled it perfectly, all of it. That is where my hope lies, in His righteousness. And stoning my children is no longer an option, and not one I would want to use.
Well God told Jews that they are an everlasting covenenant between him and Abraham, they are to follow them forever. Jewish people do not believe Jesus was the messiah, so they have no reason NOT to follow the OT laws. I can sort of see why non-Jews don’t have to; there’s the perfect loophole in God’s laws. You notice he didn’t attach a message with his laws that read, “Good until I send my son to fullfill them all”. No, he thought they should be everlasting.
[quote author=“Woofers”]
Wow, I didn’t think it was possible to convince an adult of sound mind of something that you cannot produce in front of you, but I stand corrected. :D
Don’t forget that just by growing up in a theistic society, many of which are contained in the U.S., you’re automatically indoctrinated into religion to some degree. Those images stay with a person unless they are forcibly evicted.
OK, let’s just assume for a moment that the bible is not true, and that the biblical god is just an extension of previous god figures from history. I know you don’t believe this and think that this is a false argument, but lets play, ok? Let’s pretend that the Bible is a work of fiction created by men with their own personal agendas as a mishmash of the myths and legends of their contemporary literature.
Now what? Ball’s back in your court.
Well, nothing. I would not change the way I live my life. And I would never be sorry for living my life according to the Bible.
Except, you don’t live your life according to the bible. Which is a good thing. Example below… *
It has never done me harm…
You wake up every day believing you deserve to be tortured forever, and you don’t think that’s harmful…
If I am wrong I have nothing to lose, but if you are wrong, you have everything to lose.
What, exactly, do I have to lose, mommy?
And if He is real, then who are YOU to judge His actions?
What a palpably hypocritical question. As if you’re not constantly judging your god’s alleged actions.
...Jesus did not come to abolish the Law, but fulfilled it perfectly, all of it.
This is simply false.
And stoning my children is no longer an option, and not one I would want to use.
*Like you said, you don’t live your life according to the bible. Your mere presence on this forum is a direct violation of one of your god’s commands.
But we won’t hold it against you. And we certainly won’t toss you into a fire for your disobedience. Only a despicable monster would do such a thing…
[quote author=“blessedmommyx5”]Woofers, you said that you disagree with my assessment that God can do whatever He wants. You said you disagree. Well, who is going to stop Him? And if He is real, then who are YOU to judge His actions?
If God is real and gave me an intellect and free will, then why shouldn’t I judge Him?
[quote author=“blessedmommyx5”]That was why I was asking you to assume the Bible is true. But nobody wants to think about that possibility.
Basing your justification for belief on “what if you are wrong” is a pretty week argument. After all, how do you know that you are worshiping the right God?
[quote author=“blessedmommyx5”]Then you said that God cannot be uncomprehendable. I never said that. I said that there is more about Him then we could ever possibly know on this side of heaven. We know He wants worship because he says he wants worship. What he has chosen to reveal about Himself, we will be responsible to act on. Again, if He created this world and He is perfect in holiness, then he deserves worship.
Respect and worship must be earned and even many believers will argue that the God of the Bible is not deserving of it.
[quote author=“VicM”]One thing I have learned about those who deny the existence of God is that they are usually people who are involved in gross immorality (ie pedophilia, homosexuality, adultery, bestiallity, etc.) and they don’t like the fact that there is One to whom they will answer to. That is the bottom line. You love your sin and you’re willing to do anything to pursue it - even if it means suspending all mental properties.
I do not believe in God, and I have never comitted any of the aforementioned sins. And neither has any atheist that I know. Are you speaking from experience, or are you simply concluding that because they don’t believe in God, they commit these sins, and from that conclude that that is the reason they don’t believe?
Reason has nothing to do with what you people are doing. Reason, just like genuine science, always pionts to God.
Prove it. Give ONE TINY SHRED of evidence. Thats what reason deals in, evidence.
But, as I stated above, to pursue your sin, you’re willing to suspend all mental capability.
What sin? Like I said, no atheist I know commits those sins. How do you know that atheists do, and that that is the reason for their atheism? In reason, the most important question you can ask of someone who makes some claim to truth is “How do you know?”
Thus, God is right in His assessment when He says that you are fools.
Since we don’t even believe in this god of yours, why should we believe he even said that, much less that he is right?
And lastly, how do we know you are anything but a troll?
[quote author=“VicM”]But, why do you WANT to be perceived as moral? If there is no God, what does it matter whether you are moral or not. For that matter, what does it matter that you lead a “productive” life? To what end and for what purpose?
I don’t care if I am PERCEIVED as moral. I just want to BE moral, to the best of my ability and knowledge. I do not seek the approval of other people, not that of some in=maginary god. I lead a productive life by the standard of life itself. Life is its own purpose, and anything that promotes life and its enjoyment is what I call moral.
Reason tells you that if there is no God, there is no arbiter of right and wrong, therefore, no judgement. And if there is no judgement, what is the ultimate benefit of your ‘morality’.
Reality is the highest judge. If I act wrongly, I will suffer for it, in this life. Immoral acts such as harming others (except in self-defense), lying, cheating, risking addiction to drugs, all have bad consequences, such as alienating me from the society that provides me with great benefits, trapping me in the web of my own deceit, ruining my ability to live a happy, productive life.
But as I’ve stated before, because reason escapes you, you could not understand what I’m saying.
I have understood everything you have said, which is not much at all. You have not spoken the language of reason, which is evidence. You have not even vaguely hinted at what your evidence for the existence of God might be.
VicM seems to have left the forum. He might come back if you private message him, but it’s probably not worth it; VicM is his own best friend, and his own best god.
[quote author=“blessedmommyx5”]If I am wrong I have nothing to lose, but if you are wrong, you have everything to lose.
You certainly do have something to lose if you are wrong. You might be right that there are powerful supernatural beings, and believe in the wrong one. You may be heading straight for the real God’s hell.
I’m not wrong, so I have nothing to worry about.
Then you brought up the OT laws as you all seem to love to do around here.
Christians love to being them up. How often do we hear that God forbids homosexuality because of Leviticus? Of course, none of the bits about mixed fibers or correct parapet height are ever mentioned. Talk about cherry-picking.
God wants us to know how seriously he takes sin, for instance in stoning rebellious children. And you are right, Jesus did not come to abolish the Law, but fulfilled it perfectly, all of it. That is where my hope lies, in His righteousness. And stoning my children is no longer an option, and not one I would want to use.
Stoning your children is no longer an option because it’s illegal. Then you say you wouldn’t want to do it. It’s lucky for you that civil society has overruled God, isn’t it?
