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The Problem of Islam
Posted: 20 August 2008 04:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 136 ]  
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Jack

So again, your conclusions about adolescence are premature, if you will, from a scientific perspective.  In other words, your understanding of age, like gender and other social constructs I am sure, is superfically and artifically constructed.  But nice try though.

Our discussion is not about teen emotional and behavioral problems that could stem from cultural perceptions,peer groups or psychological problems in teenagers.  I am also not talking about intelligence, visual acuity or memory skills which are very acute in teens and young people.  I am talking about the ability for teens to discern and reason on the level of adults and to understand long-term cause and effect consequences. 

As your fine ( Dr. Jay Gied) has already reported,  “the adolescent brain, while fully grown in size, is still a long way from maturity.”

That is the relevant point to this discussion.


The fact that young people have good cognitive and intelligence skills, have better memory than I do, have very acute visual abilities and have extraordinary potential to mature into successful and   responsible adults is NOT being debated here, Jack, and has no relevance to men who prey on and rape 9 year old girls in the name of marriage and religion.

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Posted: 21 August 2008 01:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 137 ]  
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Jack Shooter - 20 August 2008 07:13 PM

the question is about having sex with a prebuscent girl.  You can’t find any evidence suggesting that Islam allows this…

Yes I can.
Islam allows marriage with a prepubescent child.
Islam does not forbid sex within such a marriage.
On the contrary:

“..Therefore, making mention of the waiting-period for girls who have not yet menstruated, clearly proves that it is not only permissible to give away the girl at this age but it is permissible for the husband to consummate marriage with her. Now, obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the Qur’an has held as permissible.”

Tafsir from Maududi
...................

And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the ‘Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubt (about their periods), is three months; and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their ‘Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise”. He said: The same applies to the ‘idaah for girls who do not menstruate because they are too young, if their husbands divorce them after consummating the marriage with them.

Tafsir Al-Tabari


...................

quran 2:223 “Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will, and send (good deeds) before you for your souls, and fear Allah, and know that ye will (one day) meet Him. Give glad tidings to believers, (O Muhammad).

.

[ Edited: 21 August 2008 01:59 AM by Bongobongo Smith]
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Christian psychopaty:

Bruce Burleson
“.Tell me why it is wrong to rape, steal and kill….
…If I am a slaveholder in Alabama in 1860, why shouldn’t I enslave the niggers, fuck their women, and whip their children when they disobey me????
I’ll tell you why, and it is the ONLY reason why
..”

..he fears gods punishment.

Christians per definition has no moral.
They are governed by fear and fear only.

..and they don’t mind using the N-word.

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Posted: 21 August 2008 02:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 138 ]  
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As Chris Hedges has said, Sam knows nothing about the Middle East, while Hedges knows arabic and the culture.  Sam is just an unwashed American who doesn’t care to know the whole story. 

  During the Ottoman empire, Jews and Christians were left alone.  It wasn’t a free society, but the Middle East wasn’t the madhouse it is now.  Foreign policy by us and our one sided support of Israeli crimes is another.

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Posted: 21 August 2008 02:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 139 ]  
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FrankChurch - 21 August 2008 06:05 PM

As Chris Hedges has said, Sam knows nothing about the Middle East, while Hedges knows arabic and the culture.  Sam is just an unwashed American who doesn’t care to know the whole story. 

  During the Ottoman empire, Jews and Christians were left alone.  It wasn’t a free society, but the Middle East wasn’t the madhouse it is now.  Foreign policy by us and our one sided support of Israeli crimes is another.

OO-wee. Troll alert.

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Posted: 21 August 2008 03:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 140 ]  
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FrankChurch - 21 August 2008 06:05 PM

As Chris Hedges has said, Sam knows nothing about the Middle East, while Hedges knows arabic and the culture.  Sam is just an unwashed American who doesn’t care to know the whole story.

And I am sure you are here to tell us that whole story, or are you just going to continue quoting other people?
If you are, I hope you can pick better sources than Hedges.

During the Ottoman empire, Jews and Christians were left alone.

Total and utter bullshit, but thanks for playing.
Want to try again?
Tell it to my Bulgarian friends. If you are confused, please Google ‘Blood tax’ and you will get a flavor of what I am talking about.

It wasn’t a free society, but the Middle East wasn’t the madhouse it is now.  Foreign policy by us and our one sided support of Israeli crimes is another.

And you have also read Chomsky. Aren’t you the clever boy.
Do you have any thoughts of your own that you’d like to share with us or is it all going to be quotations from now on?

Listen up numbnuts, if you insist on telling “the whole story” then, besides the fashionable bashing of (neo)colonial fuckwittery in the Middle East, you may also want to spend a key-stroke or two on the horrendously stultifying effects of Islam and tribalism that have plagued this region for centuries.

I am not saying you are wrong Franky-boy.
It is just that you are boring and unoriginal and pretentious.

Welcome to the forum by the way.

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But that’s the way I like it baby, I don’t want to live forever.”

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Posted: 23 August 2008 09:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 141 ]  
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When Islam becomes dominant, then I will, but right now Islam is being plagued by first world racism, especially from the US/Israel alliance.  Remember, it was the left who complained about Saudi Arabian crimes and Saddam’s crimes when the US was sending them sweets and heart shaped boxes of love.  We told them about blowback, did they listen?  Nooooooooooooooooooooo. 

  Stick your welcome up your ass.

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Posted: 23 August 2008 02:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 142 ]  
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FrankChurch - 23 August 2008 01:49 PM

When Islam becomes dominant, then I will,

Then you will what ? Grow a brain ?

but right now Islam is being plagued by first world racism, especially from the US/Israel alliance.

World racism. That is a new one.

It is a sign of stupendous fuckwittery when people who accuse others of racism are too stupid themselves to differentiate between ethnicity and religion.

Remember, it was the left who complained about Saudi Arabian crimes and Saddam’s crimes when the US was sending them sweets and heart shaped boxes of love.  We told them about blowback, did they listen?  Nooooooooooooooooooooo.

Really, you told them ?
Or were you just sitting behind your computer quoting people?

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“You know I’m born to lose, and gambling is for fools.
But that’s the way I like it baby, I don’t want to live forever.”

From the autobiography of A.A.Mills, ‘The passage of time, according to an estranged, casual tyrant.’

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Posted: 23 August 2008 02:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 143 ]  
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Sander - 23 August 2008 06:12 PM

Then you will what? Grow a brain?

That’s my plan. Always have a backup plan.

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Posted: 23 August 2008 02:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 144 ]  
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Sander - 23 August 2008 06:12 PM

Then you will what? Grow a brain?

That’s my plan. Always have a backup plan.

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INVEST in cynicism!

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Posted: 24 August 2008 12:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 145 ]  
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lindajean - 20 August 2008 08:26 PM

Jack

So again, your conclusions about adolescence are premature, if you will, from a scientific perspective.  In other words, your understanding of age, like gender and other social constructs I am sure, is superfically and artifically constructed.  But nice try though.

Our discussion is not about teen emotional and behavioral problems that could stem from cultural perceptions,peer groups or psychological problems in teenagers.  I am also not talking about intelligence, visual acuity or memory skills which are very acute in teens and young people.  I am talking about the ability for teens to discern and reason on the level of adults and to understand long-term cause and effect consequences. 

As your fine ( Dr. Jay Gied) has already reported,  “the adolescent brain, while fully grown in size, is still a long way from maturity.”

That is the relevant point to this discussion.


The fact that young people have good cognitive and intelligence skills, have better memory than I do, have very acute visual abilities and have extraordinary potential to mature into successful and   responsible adults is NOT being debated here, Jack, and has no relevance to men who prey on and rape 9 year old girls in the name of marriage and religion.

LJ: You Go Girl! I’ve grown bored with Jack and his irrational rationalizations and justifications and over all inability to think for himself,  but you and bongobongo are doing a most excellent job! Gratzi, merci, gracias, and BRAVOs all around. And I think I speak for all of humanity when I say that.


Jack: If you’re not on ALL of humanity’s side you’re on the wrong side.  Leave ALL girls and women alone, drink several flies and go fuck yourself. 

Oh, and Allah revealed himself to me and told me to tell you that. So OBEY.

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Posted: 24 August 2008 01:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 146 ]  
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isocratic infidel - 24 August 2008 04:41 AM
lindajean - 20 August 2008 08:26 PM

Jack

So again, your conclusions about adolescence are premature, if you will, from a scientific perspective.  In other words, your understanding of age, like gender and other social constructs I am sure, is superfically and artifically constructed.  But nice try though.

Our discussion is not about teen emotional and behavioral problems that could stem from cultural perceptions,peer groups or psychological problems in teenagers.  I am also not talking about intelligence, visual acuity or memory skills which are very acute in teens and young people.  I am talking about the ability for teens to discern and reason on the level of adults and to understand long-term cause and effect consequences. 

As your fine ( Dr. Jay Gied) has already reported,  “the adolescent brain, while fully grown in size, is still a long way from maturity.”

That is the relevant point to this discussion.


The fact that young people have good cognitive and intelligence skills, have better memory than I do, have very acute visual abilities and have extraordinary potential to mature into successful and   responsible adults is NOT being debated here, Jack, and has no relevance to men who prey on and rape 9 year old girls in the name of marriage and religion.

LJ: You Go Girl! I’ve grown bored with Jack and his irrational rationalizations and justifications and over all inability to think for himself,  but you and bongobongo are doing a most excellent job! Gratzi, merci, gracias, and BRAVOs all around. And I think I speak for all of humanity when I say that.


Jack: If you’re not on ALL of humanity’s side you’re on the wrong side.  Leave ALL girls and women alone, drink several flies and go fuck yourself. 

Oh, and Allah revealed himself to me and told me to tell you that. So OBEY.


As you well know,  Jack is hopeless.  He will say and do and quote anyone to justify raping 9 year olds and making homosexuality (between 2 consenting adults) an evil.  I’m just glad he doesn’t live in my neighborhood, but have true empathy for any female that crosses his path.

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“Every war is a war against children.”
Howard Zinn

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Posted: 25 August 2008 01:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 147 ]  
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bongobongo - 21 August 2008 05:32 AM
Jack Shooter - 20 August 2008 07:13 PM

the question is about having sex with a prebuscent girl.  You can’t find any evidence suggesting that Islam allows this…

Yes I can.
Islam allows marriage with a prepubescent child.
Islam does not forbid sex within such a marriage.
On the contrary:

“..Therefore, making mention of the waiting-period for girls who have not yet menstruated, clearly proves that it is not only permissible to give away the girl at this age but it is permissible for the husband to consummate marriage with her. Now, obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the Qur’an has held as permissible.”

Tafsir from Maududi
...................

And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the ‘Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubt (about their periods), is three months; and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their ‘Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise”. He said: The same applies to the ‘idaah for girls who do not menstruate because they are too young, if their husbands divorce them after consummating the marriage with them.

Tafsir Al-Tabari


...................

quran 2:223 “Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will, and send (good deeds) before you for your souls, and fear Allah, and know that ye will (one day) meet Him. Give glad tidings to believers, (O Muhammad).

.


OK Jack so you don’t want to respond to this.
Fair enough, I’ve proven you wrong again,
as I have on every point in this thread;
from muslims attitude towards killing innocent civilians
in the figth for islam, to what is and what is not,
permitted in islam.


Now here’s you chance to save face
and show your superior knowledge:
there’s a passage in you holy scriptures that
I just do not get, and I’d be delighted
if you would care to explain it to me.

It concerns old Mo and his sexual life;
why is old Mo so sloppy with his sperm?

Huh!?...you might say,
but read this (from the hadish. Bukhari 4:232)

“.. Narrated ‘Amr bin Maimun:

I heard Sulaiman bin Yasar talking about the clothes soiled with semen. He said that ‘Aisha had said, “I used to wash it off the clothes of Allah’s Apostle and he would go for the prayers while water spots were still visible on them...”

Kind’a weird.

Why is he spilling cum all over his clothes?
It’s a bit sloppy isn’t it?
Didn’t Mo undress for sex?
Couldn’t he hold it back,
so he came before entering little 9 year old Aisha?
Why is old Mo so sloppy as to go to prayers
with spots on his clothing?
But most of all; why the **** is your holy scripture
concerned with old Mo’s sperm-spots?

I just don’t get it.

I’m sure that just about nobody knows about this
passage and think I’m making this up.
Not so.

Click this: LINK


.

[ Edited: 25 August 2008 01:04 PM by Bongobongo Smith]
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Christian psychopaty:

Bruce Burleson
“.Tell me why it is wrong to rape, steal and kill….
…If I am a slaveholder in Alabama in 1860, why shouldn’t I enslave the niggers, fuck their women, and whip their children when they disobey me????
I’ll tell you why, and it is the ONLY reason why
..”

..he fears gods punishment.

Christians per definition has no moral.
They are governed by fear and fear only.

..and they don’t mind using the N-word.

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Posted: 27 August 2008 08:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 148 ]  
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bongobongo - 25 August 2008 05:02 PM
bongobongo - 21 August 2008 05:32 AM
Jack Shooter - 20 August 2008 07:13 PM

the question is about having sex with a prebuscent girl.  You can’t find any evidence suggesting that Islam allows this…

Yes I can.
Islam allows marriage with a prepubescent child.
Islam does not forbid sex within such a marriage.
On the contrary:

“..Therefore, making mention of the waiting-period for girls who have not yet menstruated, clearly proves that it is not only permissible to give away the girl at this age but it is permissible for the husband to consummate marriage with her. Now, obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the Qur’an has held as permissible.”

Tafsir from Maududi
...................

And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the ‘Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubt (about their periods), is three months; and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their ‘Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise”. He said: The same applies to the ‘idaah for girls who do not menstruate because they are too young, if their husbands divorce them after consummating the marriage with them.

Tafsir Al-Tabari


...................

quran 2:223 “Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will, and send (good deeds) before you for your souls, and fear Allah, and know that ye will (one day) meet Him. Give glad tidings to believers, (O Muhammad).

.


OK Jack so you don’t want to respond to this.
Fair enough, I’ve proven you wrong again,
as I have on every point in this thread;
from muslims attitude towards killing innocent civilians
in the figth for islam, to what is and what is not,
permitted in islam.


Now here’s you chance to save face
and show your superior knowledge:
there’s a passage in you holy scriptures that
I just do not get, and I’d be delighted
if you would care to explain it to me.

It concerns old Mo and his sexual life;
why is old Mo so sloppy with his sperm?

Huh!?...you might say,
but read this (from the hadish. Bukhari 4:232)

“.. Narrated ‘Amr bin Maimun:

I heard Sulaiman bin Yasar talking about the clothes soiled with semen. He said that ‘Aisha had said, “I used to wash it off the clothes of Allah’s Apostle and he would go for the prayers while water spots were still visible on them...”

Kind’a weird.

Why is he spilling cum all over his clothes?
It’s a bit sloppy isn’t it?
Didn’t Mo undress for sex?
Couldn’t he hold it back,
so he came before entering little 9 year old Aisha?
Why is old Mo so sloppy as to go to prayers
with spots on his clothing?
But most of all; why the **** is your holy scripture
concerned with old Mo’s sperm-spots?

I just don’t get it.

I’m sure that just about nobody knows about this
passage and think I’m making this up.
Not so.

Click this: LINK


.

Bongobrains, you don’t get this hadith because you’re an idiot, remember.  Now, the point of passages like that are simple.  They serve as law, among other things.  With hadith like this, Muslim men know that their prayers are considered valid from an Islamic legal perspective even if soiled with semen.  The passage demonstrates that semen is not considered ‘najas’ or ‘filth’ that would invalidate your prayer for having it on your clothing, unlike urine or feces.

As to why there is semen on one’s clothes?  Perhaps you have never had a wet dream?  Or perhaps you have never had sex with some clothes on?  Perhaps you’re not much of a ‘shooter’?  Perhaps you don’t get much to begin with?  Anyway, whatever the case, the simple point, again, is to demonstrate acceptable practice for Muslims.  So in the end, what I am telling you is not superior knowledge per se, only when up against the surprisingly ignorant bongobrains from which you speak.

As to your saying “Fair enough, I’ve proven you wrong again, as I have on every point in this thread; from muslims attitude towards killing innocent civilians in the figth for islam, to what is and what is not, permitted in islam”, all of this never happened, except in your head maybe.

Granted, the only thing you have posted that is even worth considering, as far as I can see, is the tafsir of Maududi and Tabari, although I have serious doubts about it.  When I have the chance, I will ask around to verify what you have posted.  Like I said, I doubt its validity, but I will investigate it nonetheless, and will respond when able to.  Mind you, the strongest proof against your allegations is the actions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) (which, again, are a source of Islamic law and interpretation of the Qur’an) who, while married to Aisha when she was six, only consumated the marriage when she had reached puberty at age nine.  Again, the question is why?

In the meantime, I hope that you realize that your ignorance isn’t refreshing to me in the least bit way.  That is to say, your predecesors in disbelief were more sophisticated in their ignorance than you given your arguments thus far.  They didn’t have much success.  Neither will you.  But your welcome to keep trying.

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Posted: 27 August 2008 09:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 149 ]  
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isocratic infidel - 24 August 2008 04:41 AM
lindajean - 20 August 2008 08:26 PM

Jack

So again, your conclusions about adolescence are premature, if you will, from a scientific perspective.  In other words, your understanding of age, like gender and other social constructs I am sure, is superfically and artifically constructed.  But nice try though.

Our discussion is not about teen emotional and behavioral problems that could stem from cultural perceptions,peer groups or psychological problems in teenagers.  I am also not talking about intelligence, visual acuity or memory skills which are very acute in teens and young people.  I am talking about the ability for teens to discern and reason on the level of adults and to understand long-term cause and effect consequences. 

As your fine ( Dr. Jay Gied) has already reported,  “the adolescent brain, while fully grown in size, is still a long way from maturity.”

That is the relevant point to this discussion.


The fact that young people have good cognitive and intelligence skills, have better memory than I do, have very acute visual abilities and have extraordinary potential to mature into successful and   responsible adults is NOT being debated here, Jack, and has no relevance to men who prey on and rape 9 year old girls in the name of marriage and religion.

LJ: You Go Girl! I’ve grown bored with Jack and his irrational rationalizations and justifications and over all inability to think for himself,  but you and bongobongo are doing a most excellent job! Gratzi, merci, gracias, and BRAVOs all around. And I think I speak for all of humanity when I say that.


Jack: If you’re not on ALL of humanity’s side you’re on the wrong side.  Leave ALL girls and women alone, drink several flies and go fuck yourself. 

Oh, and Allah revealed himself to me and told me to tell you that. So OBEY.

Foul mouth, attached to a foul person I’m sure.

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Posted: 27 August 2008 09:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 150 ]  
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Sander - 21 August 2008 07:10 PM
FrankChurch - 21 August 2008 06:05 PM

As Chris Hedges has said, Sam knows nothing about the Middle East, while Hedges knows arabic and the culture.  Sam is just an unwashed American who doesn’t care to know the whole story.

And I am sure you are here to tell us that whole story, or are you just going to continue quoting other people?
If you are, I hope you can pick better sources than Hedges.

During the Ottoman empire, Jews and Christians were left alone.

Total and utter bullshit, but thanks for playing.
Want to try again?
Tell it to my Bulgarian friends. If you are confused, please Google ‘Blood tax’ and you will get a flavor of what I am talking about.

It wasn’t a free society, but the Middle East wasn’t the madhouse it is now.  Foreign policy by us and our one sided support of Israeli crimes is another.

And you have also read Chomsky. Aren’t you the clever boy.
Do you have any thoughts of your own that you’d like to share with us or is it all going to be quotations from now on?

Listen up numbnuts, if you insist on telling “the whole story” then, besides the fashionable bashing of (neo)colonial fuckwittery in the Middle East, you may also want to spend a key-stroke or two on the horrendously stultifying effects of Islam and tribalism that have plagued this region for centuries.

I am not saying you are wrong Franky-boy.
It is just that you are boring and unoriginal and pretentious.

Welcome to the forum by the way.

I must say, what an ugly avatar, but an improvement from the previous ones nonetheless.  Carry on.

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