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Pro-life Atheists

 
Nulono
 
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Nulono
Total Posts:  294
Joined  08-10-2008
 
 
 
23 January 2009 14:20
 

Enjoy it while you can. The abolitionists also had some setbacks.

 
 
Argo
 
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Argo
Total Posts:  227
Joined  07-05-2008
 
 
 
11 February 2009 18:31
 
Nulono - 23 January 2009 07:20 PM

Enjoy it while you can. The abolitionists also had some setbacks.

You’re a fucking moron.

 
Nulono
 
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Nulono
Total Posts:  294
Joined  08-10-2008
 
 
 
12 February 2009 16:53
 

That well may be.

However, you have not addressed my post.

Can you say, “ad hominem”?

 
 
Nulono
 
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Nulono
Total Posts:  294
Joined  08-10-2008
 
 
 
03 July 2009 14:33
 
LogicAndReason - 09 October 2008 04:40 PM

Deciding when a person is a “someone” is another.

Okay. So I hereby decide that you are not a “someone”. BOOM, headshot.

 
 
bigredfutbol
 
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bigredfutbol
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07 July 2009 05:38
 
Nulono - 03 July 2009 06:33 PM
LogicAndReason - 09 October 2008 04:40 PM

Deciding when a person is a “someone” is another.

Okay. So I hereby decide that you are not a “someone”. BOOM, headshot.

There’s no way I’m going to waste time wading through 600 posts catching up on your thread if this is your idea of a good retort.

 
 
goodgraydrab
 
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goodgraydrab
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07 July 2009 15:15
 
Nulono - 03 July 2009 06:33 PM

Salt Creek has discovered the meaning of the first half of “Nulono”. Now, what language uses “nul” for zero?

Who gives a shit! What I want to know is why the avitar of a Hershey’s candy bar fucking an old shoe?

 
 
DarkStar
 
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DarkStar
Total Posts:  6
Joined  07-08-2012
 
 
 
07 August 2012 16:02
 
gsmonks - 23 May 2012 01:32 AM

I’m a non-believer. I side with a woman’s right to choose.

-

That said, when I put myself in a zygote’s or embryo’s shoes, I think, “Wait just a dirty, darned minute!”

Way to dig up a conversation from 2009!  Why not, I’ll join in…  I’m just riffing off what you said a bit and addressing some of the things I saw in this thread earlier.


Of course, Zygote’s and Embryo’s don’t have shoes, or feet or a brain to think with (I know that you know that).  That’s why many people aren’t willing to give them the same rights as a fully formed human being and, in the process, turning every women who miscarries into a Murder Suspect.


And this is not merely speculative, this is reality, it is already happening.  (by the power of GoogleSkull you may find it trivially)


The entire concept is misogynistic, hateful, ignorant, and spiteful.  The social harm this policy has done and will continue to do in the future is immeasurable.


I can only hope that enough of those whom people who support these “policies” love and care for will fall afoul of this.  I want your MOTHER and your SISTER and your DAUGHTER to be jailed for life and given the death penalty because they failed to eat a sufficient quantity of eggs (allergic to eggs? Too bad, no excuse will be tolerated), or had a drink the day they became pregnant which may have contributed to their miscarriage.


And maybe then those who support this will see the error of their ways.  But by then, it will be too late.  Hundreds of generations of women will suffer, once again, burned as witches (metaphorically if not literally).


[if you will pardon my rhetorical approach above, I really do not wish harm on anyone but people do need to understand the consequences of their actions]

 


And to those that say life begins at conception… Life began here on Earth some 3.6 Billion years ago and every cell in your body is a direct descendant and product of that life - Period.


Cells do not REQUIRE two copies of the DNA to be ‘alive’.  Go look up ‘Ploidy’.  Nature has a GREAT variety of configurations that are viable at different stages of various organisms life-cycle.  For example, male bees, wasps, and ants are haploid and develop from unfertilized, haploid egg cells.  Q.E.D.  This is irrelevant to the question of ‘life’.  For billions of years parthenogenesis was the norm (and most likely haploid) and our gametes are a product of that lineage.  Diploid cells are the modern “freaks of nature”, not the other way around.


And to throw another spanner into the works, look up HeLa cells.  Yeah, that’s right—“Human Cells” can live and thrive as single-celled organisms, free at last.  Why wouldn’t each of those cells also be a “Person”?  Are laboratories around the world now guilty of Mass Murder of 100’s of Trillions of little human souls because they disinfected?


And that means that EVERY cell in your body has the same potential to be another human being.  So every cell you allow to die is another murder of a human Person.  The census people will be thrilled.

 
Richa Rickty
 
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Richa Rickty
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Joined  07-10-2012
 
 
 
07 October 2012 08:55
 

I recently ask my friend Patrick, a pro-life activist who is also an atheist to write a commentary about why he is pro-life. I think sometimes Christians might not understand that many non-religious people hold the pro-life position and hold it passionately.

I thought this would be a great way for people who hold these views as part of their faith to understand why someone without a faith would hold the same views.

I have included a link to Patrick’s blog and I expect everyone who decides to comment or talk to him to do so with the upmost love and respect. The courage it takes for Patrick to be an active pro-lifer is way more than most Christians can understand.

montreal office supplies

[ Edited: 09 October 2012 08:16 by Richa Rickty]
 
Rami Rustom
 
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Rami Rustom
Total Posts:  219
Joined  10-09-2012
 
 
 
08 October 2012 10:08
 
Nulono - 08 October 2008 03:52 PM

I just wanted you all to know that we exist. It was terribly offended by being accused of being religious.

http://www.godlessprolifers.org/
http://www.l4l.org/

The whole debate of pro-life vs pro-choice is wrong. The pro-lifers say that its immoral to do an abortion, because its murder (of a human). The pro-choicers say that its moral to do an abortion, because the mother has the right to murder her fetus. They are both wrong.


The whole framing of the question is wrong. Their question is: Is it moral to murder a human during pregnancy? Pro-lifers say no while pro-choicers say yes. But that question presupposes that fetuses are humans. And that fetuses have the preference to live (and that they have preferences in general). But this is false. Fetuses do not yet have preferences and so they do not yet have the preference to live.


So its important to first define what a human is. A human is a being that has (human-type) preferences. Human-type preferences are preferences that humans create for themselves. (Note that non-human animals have only genetically-determined preferences, so these are not human-type preferences.) So for example, a human has the preference to not have his life ended. And of course, murder is immoral because it goes against the will of the victim.


Another quality of being human is the ability to create knowledge. Humans create knowledge by creativity and criticism. We guess ideas, and we criticize them. Then we criticize those criticisms. The ideas left uncriticized are our conjectural truths (aka beliefs). Note that our preferences are a type of ideas that we create.


So the question is: When does a fetus acquire the qualities of humans? I’m not sure when that is exactly but I do know that its after a full-term pregnancy. So just to be safe, lets say that at the end of a full-term pregnancy, a fetus becomes a human. In which case killing the fetus would be murder. And doing an abortion before that time is not murder.

 
ibanezerscrooge
 
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ibanezerscrooge
Total Posts:  83
Joined  23-01-2012
 
 
 
10 October 2012 07:40
 

I’d like to chime in here and say that I actually respect Nulono’s position to the point where others’ rights are being protected.

I would consider myself philosophically pro-life/anti-abortion in that I do not think that the widespread acceptance, practice and what I’ve seen as encouragement for women to get abortions because a pregnancy is inconvenient is not generally “good” for society.

HOWEVER,

I do NOT support any kind of legislation or law or amendment or anything else that would infringe on a woman’s right to have that abortion for any reason she chooses.

 
Rami Rustom
 
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Rami Rustom
Total Posts:  219
Joined  10-09-2012
 
 
 
10 October 2012 08:30
 
ibanezerscrooge - 10 October 2012 07:40 AM

I’d like to chime in here and say that I actually respect Nulono’s position to the point where others’ rights are being protected.

I would consider myself philosophically pro-life/anti-abortion in that I do not think that the widespread acceptance, practice and what I’ve seen as encouragement for women to get abortions because a pregnancy is inconvenient is not generally “good” for society.

HOWEVER,

I do NOT support any kind of legislation or law or amendment or anything else that would infringe on a woman’s right to have that abortion for any reason she chooses.

Your argument implies that murder is moral. See my post right before yours.


Either you think a fetus *is* a human, or not.


If human, then abortion is murder, and thus is immoral. Women should *never* do them.


If not human, then abortion is not murder, and thus is moral. Women should do them whenever they want.

 
Ice Monkey
 
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Ice Monkey
Total Posts:  133
Joined  11-08-2012
 
 
 
11 October 2012 14:37
 

Funny how so many people seem to be adopting the Catholic view of rights - they start at conception and end at birth.

I could take more pro-lifers more seriously if they could help out the vulnerable among us AFTER they were born.  Given the poor human rights stance of Americans (one of only 6 countries on the planet to execute an adolescent within the last 20 years, and also executes the mentally handicapped), and the wishy-washy stance my own country takes on individual freedoms, I gotta wonder what the fuss is about. 

Being more concerned with the rights of the unborn vs the born is a sign of a mental illness, IMO. 

 
 
ibanezerscrooge
 
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ibanezerscrooge
Total Posts:  83
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12 October 2012 04:44
 
Rami Rustom - 10 October 2012 08:30 AM
ibanezerscrooge - 10 October 2012 07:40 AM

I’d like to chime in here and say that I actually respect Nulono’s position to the point where others’ rights are being protected.

I would consider myself philosophically pro-life/anti-abortion in that I do not think that the widespread acceptance, practice and what I’ve seen as encouragement for women to get abortions because a pregnancy is inconvenient is not generally “good” for society.

HOWEVER,

I do NOT support any kind of legislation or law or amendment or anything else that would infringe on a woman’s right to have that abortion for any reason she chooses.

Your argument implies that murder is moral. See my post right before yours.


Either you think a fetus *is* a human, or not.


If human, then abortion is murder, and thus is immoral. Women should *never* do them.


If not human, then abortion is not murder, and thus is moral. Women should do them whenever they want.

Well, considering that I was not making a argument but, simply stating an opinion, no such moral implication is being made.

I do however have an issue with your supposition that “Either you think a fetus *is* a human, or not.” Is a cat fetus a cat? Or a dog fetus a dog? That’s a strange question to me. On the one hand it could be argued that since the bundle of cells, if left to natural processes and conditions, will potentially grow into a human so, it could therefore be called a human. However, to a point a human fetus is no different than a cat or dog fetus and all but an experienced embryologist could not tell the difference between the 2 for the first several weeks of development. So, is it a human? The question doesn’t make sense to ask at that stage.

At any rate my opinion still is that the widespread practice of abortion is not healthy long term for society, but I will not oppose a woman’s right to choose.

 
Rami Rustom
 
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Rami Rustom
Total Posts:  219
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12 October 2012 06:25
 
Rami Rustom - 10 October 2012 08:30 AM
ibanezerscrooge - 10 October 2012 07:40 AM

I do not think that the widespread acceptance, practice and what I’ve seen as encouragement for women to get abortions because a pregnancy is inconvenient is not generally “good” for society.

HOWEVER,

I do NOT support any kind of legislation or law or amendment or anything else that would infringe on a woman’s right to have that abortion for any reason she chooses.

Your argument implies that murder is moral. See my post right before yours.


Either you think a fetus *is* a human, or not.


If human, then abortion is murder, and thus is immoral. Women should *never* do them.


If not human, then abortion is not murder, and thus is moral. Women should do them whenever they want.

> Well, considering that I was not making a argument but, simply stating an opinion, no such moral implication is being made.


I don’t see a difference. Arguments are also opinions and opinions are also arguments.


> I do however have an issue with your supposition that “Either you think a fetus *is* a human, or not.” Is a cat fetus a cat? Or a dog fetus a dog?


No. No. Consider this. Is a cell a cat if it has cat DNA? I guess you’ll say no. So at what stage does that entity become a cat? (I give an answer below for humans.)


> That’s a strange question to me. On the one hand it could be argued that since the bundle of cells, if left to natural processes and conditions, will potentially grow into a human so, it could therefore be called a human.


I think, that by that logic, you could say that same thing about sex. Since sex could potentially lead to conception and thus a human, then its bad to use contraception.


> However, to a point a human fetus is no different than a cat or dog fetus and all but an experienced embryologist could not tell the difference between the 2 for the first several weeks of development. So, is it a human? The question doesn’t make sense to ask at that stage.


I think the stage doesn’t matter. I think that what matters is what constitutes a human. Like a definition. And then we can use that definition in any stage and for any being. So for example, if dogs meet that definition, then its immoral to murder dogs. So, what makes humans humans? Humans are beings that create universal knowledge, meaning that we can create any type of knowledge. One of those types of knowledge is our preferences. So humans create their own preferences. Note that cows, for example, don’t create universal knowledge (like their own preferences), as their programming is coded by their DNA. Fetus also don’t (yet) create universal knowledge. They don’t (yet) create their own preferences.

Preferences matter in morality. When people interact with each other, its immoral to act against each other’s preferences. Doing something to someone against their will is immoral (unless its in self-defense). It violates their moral right to freedom. Note that I’m talking about human-like preferences, i.e. changeable preferences, i.e. preferences that we change using our universal knowledge creating ability.


One preference many people have is “I want to live.” Note that people can change that preference to, “I don’t want to live anymore (because my life sucks).” Fetuses and cows don’t have the mental faculty to create their own preferences. They only have preprogrammed ways of behaving in certain situations that have evolved (in their DNA). Its their DNA that determines their preferences.


> At any rate my opinion still is that the widespread practice of abortion is not healthy long term for society, but I will not oppose a woman’s right to choose.


What do you think would happen to society if women all over the world had abortions whenever they wanted to?

 
Ice Monkey
 
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Ice Monkey
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Joined  11-08-2012
 
 
 
12 October 2012 06:30
 

?

[ Edited: 12 October 2012 06:34 by Ice Monkey]
 
 
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