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End game?

 
theFreethinker
 
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theFreethinker
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29 September 2010 06:51
 

Thats sarcasm, calm down

No it’s not and i could quote it again…but hopefully this is the end of the entire thing

Would if I could.

Good thing you know you couldn’t.

 
Reerr
 
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Reerr
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29 September 2010 17:01
 

No it’s not and i could quote it again…but hopefully this is the end of the entire thing

Quote it again, but this time show me christian ethiopian suicide bombers

My statement was sarcasm, because there aren’t any.

again i’m not making you anything what i quoted is in context and here’s the entire paragraph

How about you go back up and read the last line, the part you DIDN’T QUOTE…...AGAIN…. “Lame metaphor is lame.  Again.”

Remember this:

You have done that thing again, where you’re dishonestly misquoting me in a lame attempt to make a point.  I have again caught you, and I got money says you do it again sometime in the next two posts.

I just won ten bucks, you just lost a little bit more credibility.

so Ethiopia with Christianity have riots and suicide bombers

Christian suicide bombers?  Ethiopian suicide bombers?  If Ethiopian, but not christian, then what religion are they?  If christian, but not ethiopian, what country are they from?  If neither, why bring up stupid shit like this?

aids…fuck the aids.

Finally we agree, I hate the aids virus too.

so you don’t hate them , but you don’t care about them…but why

I dont’ hate them as people, nor do I necessarily hate the religion of Islam.  I think many of the adherents are practicing a dangerous form of self-delusion found in the quran.  I don’t care that they don’t like my criticism of the religion they practice, nor do I care whether their country has been colonized and oppressed.  I criticize other religions, who don’t riot like petulant children, and I know of many other countries whose people have lived under colonial powers and oppression.  Muslims aren’t special, and aren’t especially privy to claiming depredation and despair.  Look at India’s history, or Japan’s, then look at them now.

You can call this racism, bigotry, w/e, like I said, I don’t care.  I would care, however, if they started taking back their own governments, rejecting, wholesale, the ideology that is causing much of their oppression, albeit indirectly.  In fact, were muslims, as a religious group, accepting criticism like adults, handling their own societies and governments, and moving towards an interpretation of Islam that is less obtrusive, and still weren’t progressing into modernity with the rest of the world, I would probably join their struggle against oppression.

Alas, they are doing none of these things.  Most muslims are as intolerant of criticism as the fundamentalists are intolerant of heretics.  Many muslims are torn between rival interpretations of sharia law, and are crippled by the fact that their entire existence is being lived through the prism of theology.  Most muslims are dragging around enough metaphysical baggage to prevent a unified effort of ANY kind for another thousand years.

But mostly, I don’t care because there isn’t a thing I can do to help, and I’m sick and tired of not just the violence, but having the violence blamed on my country, and, by association, myself.  I haven’t done a thing to muslims.

as Epicurus said

Excellent quote, and while I appreciate the compliment, I am NOT a god.  If I was able to remove evil from the world, it would be gone.  Another pointless jab that misses wide.

you giving billions as a bribe to corrupted regimes , a country like Pakistan allow all type of corruption , women are mutilated every day, children raped, and most probably they
‘re harboring bin-laden, why the fuck are you giving there government aids

What are we supposed to do, mail checks to individual citizens?  The current president appears to have been elected by the electoral college, precisely how it is done in the US.

women are mutilated every day, children raped

Religion.  Religion.

you have special attention to muslims because there a sub-forum on a discussion board for Islam?

No, you’re failing at reading comprehension.  I shall break this down for you, barney style:

1.  I believe bad ideas should be criticized and opposed.
2.  I believe Islam is one of those bad ideas.
3.  I posted my criticism on a discussion board about Islam.
4.  Ergo, I am paying special attention to Islam because this is a discussion board about Islam.

You are on a discussion board about Islam, defending what I think is a bad idea (Islam), and you are wondering why I am only talking about Islam.  I am at a loss for words at this point.  If you can’t understand this, I think I might have revealed why our conversation has continued for so long.

for the last time please lets end this conversation , it’s becoming Ethically Immoral

It is not my fault you can’t quote me honestly, or recognize sarcasm when used to make a point, and neither makes ME immoral or unethical.  You know the way out, I don’t know why you’re waiting for me to leave.

Ciao

 
theFreethinker
 
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theFreethinker
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29 September 2010 19:25
 

It is not my fault you can’t quote me honestly,

i did quote honestly ,
But lets fix it…as you don’t want to just stop

but this time show me christian Ethiopian suicide bombers

There’s non , and there’s non Ethiopian suicide bombers either, the ones who executed the famous bombing are Somalian, and Somalia is an Al-qaida base,the group is called alshabab…yes i forgot, you don’t care, as long as they’re muslim it will do.
as you previously said

Ethiopians are becoming suicide bombers, rioting by the thousands over criticism of Christianity, and were once the leaders in science and free inquiry, but now languish in the most abysmal ignorance?  Ouch.

Oh, just checked wikipedia, 34% of them are muslims, that explains it!

and its not sarcasm…I’ll till what it’s soon enough.

I just won ten bucks, you just lost a little bit more credibility.

I dare you right now…leave the thread as its .
you say i lost creditability, why don’t we leave whom ever reads the entire thread be a judge of that…
if you’re so confident don’t reply again.( i have money you reply )

Christian suicide bombers?  Ethiopian suicide bombers?  If Ethiopian, but not christian, then what religion are they?  If christian, but not ethiopian, what country are they from?  If neither, why bring up stupid shit like this?

(laughing out loud to the point of nearly shitting myself)
YOU Brought this stupid shit up…as what you call “sarcasm”
and i explained it above.( as always)

Finally we agree, I hate the aids virus too.

Not that funny, but good attempt at “sarcasm”

lets quote again( without the “thing” you claim i do)

1

I dont’ hate them as people, nor do I necessarily hate the religion of Islam.

2

I think many of the adherents are practicing a dangerous form of self-delusion found in the quran.

3

I don’t care that they don’t like my criticism of the religion they practice, nor do I care whether their country has been colonized and oppressed

so you don’t care if the are oppressed and that’s the actual reason for violence but all you care about is to prove that the religion is the reason even if that assumption is wrong.

hmmm and i don’t care if i saw you on TV being beheaded by a terrorist…( Unfortunately to me , i do care even if you’re the worst human ever lived)

4

I know of many other countries whose people have lived under colonial powers and oppression

name these countries , keeping in mind having the same situation, which are, colonized oppressed, then a transfer of power to a corrupt regime that work for the previous colonialists , then oppressed more, prosecuted , tortured, denied most of the human rights for more than 100 years.
Ethiopia…still struggling to become a country, Nigeria,  muslim majority and al-qaida base,
you know i see a trend, occupation, then corrupted regime that deals with the previous occupation, turning a country into an economically occupied land once again, and to accomplish that they oppress the people then…yes i can see it, it must be the religion.

Look at India’s history, or Japan’s, then look at them now.

ok let me look ,
India , great achievement in a lot of areas, but hmmmm
don’t they have major issues with Pakistan, maybe because Pakistan are muslims , not because the Hindu’s and the Sikhs used to kill muslim before the separation of the 2 , and before Gandhi balanced some of the religious hate,
India is a country with religion, they even have probably the largest numbers of gods known to man.
YET the majority of India is way under poverty, the majority live with around 10$ a moth
India is a great example, spare me the Indian government propaganda and go visit India.

tension is still there but the people are oppressed to the extent of handicap( i think if half million Indian got together they can chip together and buy a bomb)
according to Indian government latest statistic 37% live under poverty line ( not at poverty but under) 15% live in rural areas so no one knows about them , and the rest fall into the “vague” category…try to search whats the Indian poverty line , so when someone is paid that exact amount is not considered poor.
http://www.azadindia.org/social-issues/poverty-in-india.html

Now let see japan,
that’s a simple task , another Immoral racist decides to nuke them for no reason what so ever , like a Little kid that got bored with a game that he started.
but how much that child payed afterwords as Compensation…that’s to you to find out.
more importantly japan has a king , its there culture ,and with the few left after there holocaust they rebuilt, but…
do you see any Japanese anime?
most of it have an anti western theme
examples
code geass, Britannia invades japan and destroys it , and a kid swears to destroys Britannia and kill all” Britannians “( thats the term used so they don’t cross the line , Britannia is a fantasy land , not the one we all know)
Hellsing
an organization responsible of killing the vampires and demons around the world , they’re arch enemy is the vatican ( literally ), then arise a second enemy…who?
you got it, European Nazi ZOMBIES that wants to destroy japan and control the world…
need more examples…
but yes , there’ not violent now…so far, good just wait for it.
an anime that’s watched by all Japanese children and can be accessed by anyone on the planet doesn’t worry you than a group of people that you claim have a general violent tendencies.

if they started taking back their own governments, rejecting, wholesale, the ideology that is causing much of their oppression, albeit indirectly.


have you ever been raped
watch this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EywTcohe0Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8KG5N_yq1s&feature=related
don’t want to put more for security purposes but while in you tube feel free to look through the similar videos.

you don’t know the meaning of Oppression , your mind lacks the power to apprehend what they do to people who speak out 9 just speak) so if you don’t care it’s your problem , but don’t fucking till me the world have worse , because there isn’t , the worst thing than this is genocide, and ethnic cleansing( i think you wont mind that either if they were muslims)

  Most muslims are as intolerant of criticism as the fundamentalists are intolerant of heretics.

maybe , but this is not the case here, maybe because there’s also Atheists and secularists who don’t know the difference between criticism and Racism, and wen confronted they play every trick in the book to twist morality to their benefit.
Every human being has issues with racism, but the good ones are those who can admit it and fix it.

But mostly, I don’t care because there isn’t a thing I can do to help, and I’m sick and tired of not just the violence, but having the violence blamed on my country, and, by association, myself.  I haven’t done a thing to muslims.

well, that’s a good start .
but let me till you , your government is to be blamed , whether you like it or not, they gave the radicals money they gave them weapons, they created the beats, so if you can’t do anything about the fucking muslim radicals and radicalism , at least do what you ask them to do…fix where you are, lobby against weapons going to shady groups, that might not be a threat now but in time they’ll be , and most importantly as Sam Harris once said , the first step always is to take responsibility, Muslims have to admit they are responsible one way or the other for not stooping such radical , and your government also must admit how it helped creating that monster , at least then those who are being brainwashed can know for a fact that those whom they follow are nothing but ex-puppets of the very same enemy they make them fight.

I am NOT a god.  If I was able to remove evil from the world, it would be gone.  Another pointless jab that misses wide.

Not at all, your reply shows that evil continues,even if you were “a god”

What are we supposed to do, mail checks to individual citizens?  The current president appears to have been elected by the electoral college, precisely how it is done in the US.

yes indeed , don’t make Wikipedia your political source.
the difference is , boxes come filled with votes, democracy in Pakistan had a blow by the assassination of the only Muslim women Prime minister Benazir Bhutto
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benazir_Bhutto
everyone knew back then it was the blew the radicals prepared for long time.
funny enough the president you referred to was part of the plot, and he was her husband.( he even refused an autopsy to be made)

Religion.  Religion.

not really, please at least make the effort to look in the different direction and see what it has to say.

No, you’re failing at reading comprehension.  I shall break this down for you, barney style:

good, slow old me , would like a break down.

i asked

you have special attention to muslims because there a sub-forum on a discussion board for Islam?

and you said the following

1.  I believe bad ideas should be criticized and opposed.
2.  I believe Islam is one of those bad ideas.
3.  I posted my criticism on a discussion board about Islam.
4.  Ergo, I am paying special attention to Islam because this is a discussion board about Islam.

lets leave it to the judges

You are on a discussion board about Islam, defending what I think is a bad idea (Islam),

let me be VERY clear about this one more time ( without breaking anything sown)
If I’m defending Islam as a religion , I’ll til you I’m defending islam as a religion, i’m fully aware of my self and my choices and i don’t deny them or hide them .
my stand is clear, you’re deliberately confusing religion with it’s follower, and then confuse people about the morality on how to think of them as people who suffer from far worst issue that this argument.
Maybe Sam Harris is to blame for it, because unfortunately he said it once clearly ( on the 4 horsemen ) i believe or on something with him and Hitchens , he said we can ally others to face islam, not using the same words but his implication was clear, they interrupted him and redirected the conversation, ( i think it appears also in the second part of the horsemen video, when he starts the topic then Dr.Dawkins interrupts him and changes direction.
that’s one of the things i have against him , i think he’s causing hate instead of awareness.

I understand you’re against bad ideas, where do you live? i assume U.S
I live in the middle of this shit, and it’s necessary beyond your imagination to keep the balance.
you understand my words as i’m tilling you to not criticize.
the thing i repeated and for some reason you ignored, i told you , that I’m not saying that at all,
please criticize, but do it in away that it reaches muslims and be an actual criticism based on knowledge
how hard it’s to go to a muslim scholar in the us and ask him what is the basic muslim belief about that subject? how hard its?

It is not my fault you can’t quote me honestly, or recognize sarcasm when used to make a point, and neither makes ME immoral or unethical.  You know the way out, I don’t know why you’re waiting for me to leave.

I’m not making you immoral, your argument in its current form is, and I’m not waiting for ou i,m answering what i consider false claims, not for the sake of a religion, but for the sake of humans.
please make the effort to understand a bit more about the people not the religion.
my above red challenge stand

[ Edited: 29 September 2010 19:56 by theFreethinker]
 
Reerr
 
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Reerr
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30 September 2010 07:30
 

I want to be clear, though I’m not responding to your last post as I don’t think you have opened any new doors, nor shown my post to be false in any way, I don’t feel religion is the cause of EVERY problem in the middle east.  There are certainly many other bad ideas that are causing despair, but it seems to me that only one bad idea is self-imposed, and it’s complicity in many of the problems in the middle east is endlessly obfuscated.

OK, lets try a different tack.  Here are a few questions I would like for you to answer, and you are welcome to take as much time as you need.  I would encourage you to spellcheck/proofread, to avoid any unnecessary misunderstandings, we have enough of those as it is.

1.  What is Lesser Jihad, how does it get started, and what are the relevant passages?

2.  In the year 2000, did you consider Saddam Hussein an oppressive dictator?  If he was still in power, and you lived in Iraq (or Kuwait), would you be claiming his was a “corrupted regime that deals with the previous occupation”?  How do you view the US after removing Hussein from power?

3.  Where do the passages about witchcraft, female subjugation, and hating non-believers(demonization, dislike, and commands to avoid friendship with them) originate?  In what way could these passages possibly explain witches still being killed, women still being subjugated, and infidels being targeted with terrorism?

4.  If all of the terrorists turned all of their energy upon freeing their own people from the oppression of their own governments, would this change anything?  What if all muslims turned their energy towards overthrowing corrupt governments in their own countries?

5.  If American police are beating American citizens, are you, as a foreign citizen, obligated to help?

6.  What is the penalty for apostasy?  Do you approve?

 
theFreethinker
 
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theFreethinker
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30 September 2010 12:49
 

good , at least i won my bet .


as a closing to the first main issue of this thread, it was about is there hope for muslim?
i believe yes, i refuse to make a connection between false teaching and actual belief, non of the muslims kill because god told them to, they kill because they feel they’re being unjustifiably attacked or discriminated against.
I presented several arguments, but let me put one more, countries like Egypt , Tunisia, Morocco Algeria Emirates…receive large numbers of tourists a year, and they’re all a Muslim countries with majority of muslims, we never so a an incident with REGULAR muslim attacking or assaulting a tourist, never, tourism in these countries are in the rise.
so i refuse to mix arguments to prove religion is wrong , that’s a whole different issue.

that leads me to your questions, they’re questions about religion and they should be asked in a different topic, please make a new thread , add your question and add the answers that I’ll provide here , and let it be the start of anew topic .

as a ending to this topic, i thanks you for the conversation , and i hope that you don’t take any of what ever i said as insults, because nothing i wrote was meant to be so.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Ok , let as a start of a new topic clarify a great misunderstanding, whether it’s deliberate or not by those who promote it is beyond me.

what constitutes the core beleif in Islam?
the Quran , and only the quran, hadith is not even the law based on the quran .
hadith is the History of how there prophet acted in some occasions , and its not historically accurate and theres within muslims debates every day about it.
so something from the hadith that puts a law that’s not mentioned in the quran is considered false.

who take the quran literally and who uses interpretation?
all muslims use the quran literally and in the literal sense and understanding of that book , it has nothing of what the radicals claims in the correct context in arabic, in another world it’s not ambiguous, it’s clear , but also you need to understand that in the quran its said that it’s as a whole is considered one sentence , you can’t take one verse and say , ok it says this, because all the times, few verses later an explanation is offered.

who uses interpretations?
the radicals , that’s why i hate calling them fundamentalists , they’re not, they’re generalists at best.
they use the weak hadith, the ones that has no connection to quran and create the illusion of connection to make there claims, and most muslims know that, because they know arabic and can see the difference.

before i get to your questions , keep in mind i’m answering your question as i wanted at some point to understand (like you ) the fact from the fiction , so i learned even advanced arabic , and i asked many scholars and read many books in the process, the reason for the past statement is not to confuse a conversation about what a certain religion has or hasn’t with the issue of a “great Deity” or ” a creator” , again that is a whole different issue .
now to your questions.

1.  What is Lesser Jihad, how does it get started, and what are the relevant passages?

there’s no such thing as lesser jihad , these are jihadists terms, jihad in islam is one concept and let me explain it to you.
Jihad as an arabic word is derived from the word johd. “johd” mean Effort
so jihad as an arabic accurate translation is the hardest Effort.
I’ll quote a google translation to one of the arabic dictionaries called ( lesan al-arab)

Effort and effort: Energy, says: straining effort; said: effort, effort, energy hardship. haith: effort that human effort from a disease or something hard, it is effortless; said: “Language and effort to that effect.
In an interview with the mother temple: a sheep behind the effort for the sheep; said I’m the air: You may repeat the word effort, and effort in the modern, a conquest, hardship, and it was: two languages in as he can afford, either in hardship and end Vafatth not others; and wants it in an interview with the mother temple in the sheep wasting; and embraced modern charity, any charity is best, said: “widow’s mite as much as any case bear little money.
And effort if a man is laughing; Said famous: They requested effort, added the source but in the position of the case, also admitted to the mill and the harvest, when they said: send the fight; said: Not every source plus also that not every source you enter the Alpha and the harvest. And effort straining effort and worked hard , both: very.

if you want to make sure the word in arabic is ( ??? )

in sharia Jihad is divided in 5 categories,
1- self jihad, where you make the effort to make yourself a better person( that’s a long issue ) , in brief, to be a good person provide to your famine and not harm others, and be a profitable member of you community.

2 through 4 , is what jihadest took and called “lesser” jiahd, and it contains, 2-jihad of immorality 3- jihad hypocrisy 4-jihad of evil.
the reason for those 3 , is in the quran , immorality need no explanation , anyone of any belief system ( or the lack of it) opposes immorality, hypocrites is the curretn English translation of the word , but the actual one is the following.
there were a group of people in the age of there prophet they’re called “The Hypocrites” why?
they were Muslims, or at least they claimed to be , but they didn’t oppose islam , or criticize it ( which happened in that age too)  , but they refused to do any of islam requirements , and at some point they allied non muslims in war against muslims.
the problem with them is that they kept there claim to be muslims , and there’s a verse in quran says: that a Muslim can not kill a Muslim and that who does, will never be forgiven.
and as long as they kept the faith they have to be treated as muslims how they do jihad against them >>>ill come to it after defining all the categories.
4- evil, as of all religious an act of adultery in example is considered evil…so as other things.

5- the last jihad is jihad of the Infidels ( as you call them ), the quran calls them “kafer” the accurate translation is non-believer, the word “Infidel” means “Atheist” only.and again if you understood arabic you’ll understand the meaning more clearly, let me try to explain,
a Muslim is an infidel…how?
to any atheist a muslim is an infidel, because he practices what is considered infidelity to the human experience, what im getting at is , the meaning of the word as Muslims understand t is on a “vise versa” bases.
and a muslim is a non believer, to all non muslims , because he doesn’t believe in what they believe…etc.

so how does it work?
jihad is not the act of attacking ,its the act of self defense, as verse 194 of the quran says the following
“Whoso commits aggression against you, do you commit aggression against him like as he has committed against you, and fear you God, and know that God is with the godfearing. “
in arabic it says
??? ?????? ????? ??????? ????? ???? ?? ?????? ?????
and there’s many similar verses like
“Do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden except on self defense”(sorat al-an’am verse 151)
the English Interpreted i use is the one by A. J. Arberry, its not the best but it has 2 things, the self understanding that its an interpretation not an accurate translation 2- its better than the rest i saw so far.

so jiahd is only when you attach muslims, nd its not called jihad if you attack them in a land dispute , it’s only called jiahd if you attack them because of there belief, and to force them to abandon that belief then its called jiahd, and remember the violent act of war is only a reply in the quran for another act of war , and it was never instructed in the quran to be the aggressor.

so what terrorists do has no base in the quran and not even in the non-accurate hadith.
now to explain suicide bombing.
suicide is forbidden in Islam in both quran and hadith entirely ...
see the following
(Do not kill yourselves, Allah is Merciful to you)( sorat alnesa’ , verse 29 )
and there are many hadithes as well…so they’re acting on there own delusions

2.  In the year 2000, did you consider Saddam Hussein an oppressive dictator?  If he was still in power, and you lived in Iraq (or Kuwait), would you be claiming his was a “corrupted regime that deals with the previous occupation”?  How do you view the US after removing Hussein from power?

 

there’s not one muslim that suddam hussein is an evil man who deserved what he got, but thats really what you don’t get, Muslims are an emotional people , when someone dies even if he’s evil they don’t like to curse him or…here’s how they view it , they have a saying that goes something like this,” what would you benefit by beating a dead man”.
so in essence they mean , judge his acts and do what should be done , but they think that insulting a dead man is immoral waste of time, and that doesn’t mean they criminalize his acts.

as to my view , he’s a dictator who had business with the U.S , so whether it was a a conflict in interest or something else that caused them to disagree , is beyond me, but the U.S watched him before killing thousands of Iranians in chemical war and done nothing, they watched him commit genocide against the Kurds in the north of Iraq and done nothing…so my honest opinion…it was a business conflict that went far than they expected it to go.

as for him he killed from his people whether sunni or she’at or kurd in thousands and tortured more, and raped many women , him alone and his family and corrupted political party, he was a scum bag Racist, so i have this opinion of him long before he was seen as an enemy of the U.S.

during the gulf war ( both 1 and 2 ) i was in the gulf aria and i met many American soldiers and officers , mainly on the air force and navy to be honest.

If he was still in power, and you lived in Iraq (or Kuwait), would you be claiming his was a “corrupted regime that deals with the previous occupation”?

i don’t understand the question entirely, but if he’s still in power and i lived there , i don’t know if h would’ve had internet or even if i would be still alive, i might have became a corrupted follower of his fucked up ideology…who knows.
you really don’t know the extent of what he and his family members did to the iraqi people
here’s a story , his son used to get his 4X4 car and his guards and go to the college , go through the girls and pick 5 or 6 , force them to go with him, rape them for a week then if any of them don’t like or show a sign of dislike she’s frames for treason and dragged to jail to be raped again by more of his dogs, this didn’t happen once ow twice , but for the entire period he was in power.
i don’t know if this answers that question.

How do you view the US after removing Hussein from power?

trapped.
because they can go out all together , why?
it will show they accomplished nothing.
they removed him and 10 or so of his accomplices from power , but his party is still strong and amongst the ruling elite there to this day.
They changed few things, but not a lot.


rest of the question in the next post due to posting limitations

 
theFreethinker
 
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30 September 2010 13:27
 

3.  Where do the passages about witchcraft, female subjugation, and hating non-believers(demonization, dislike, and commands to avoid friendship with them) originate?  In what way could these passages possibly explain witches still being killed, women still being subjugated, and infidels being targeted with terrorism?

beats me too.
there’s nothing neither in the quran or the hadith that promotes any of the above, let me give an example
Quran , allows muslims to eat any food made by non muslims ( Special meat ) , in Judaism in example it has to be slaughtered according to there accurate tradition , in islam if you invited a muslim to dinner he’ll eat anything as long as its not Pork, that’s the only thing they’re not allowed to eat. other than that they do, in the quran they’re instructed to be friendly and good to non muslims , it allows muslims to marry them and marry from them,
as much as i don’t like hadiths, but here’s one by there prophet states the following , literally: ( that who harms a non-muslims is like he harmed me, and that who harms me is insulting god )( al bukhari book of hadith)
so if you really look on the exact meaning of islamic teachings it doesn’t advocate any od the mentioned above.
in fact if you looked at most of the muslims countries ,you’ll see that most women are not oppressed they wear what they like when they like and where they like , the pictures used on propaganda against Muslims is only from Pakistan, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia…the rest mainly moderates who just suffer political corruption as i stated before.
how come they’re all intolerant and sill the majority of them live daily with tourists ?
they lived and emigrated to Europe for ages and were never noticed and accused of anything untill9-11 and then these days with the Anti-muslims campaigns…as people they’re just people like you.

  If all of the terrorists turned all of their energy upon freeing their own people from the oppression of their own governments, would this change anything?

they did and they failed , because they want to turn countries to radical regimes which most muslims oppose , it happend in Egypt and the entire country fought them , fought there bombings , and killing of other muslims, it took Egypt 15 years to get rid of the jihadests , but not the radicals yet. again happened to Algeria and they’re still straggling, and happened to Syria and they fought them as well, it actually happened and muslims proved they oppose e radicalism.

What if all muslims turned their energy towards overthrowing corrupt governments in their own countries?

i explained to you , have you watched the videos?
what you saw is how ordinary criminals treated , now multiply this by 100 and imagine how political prisoners are treated, and the fact that most of them never make it but alive, but still they try , i can show you thousands of web pages for people and groups who speak out against what they suffer.

5.  If American police are beating American citizens, are you, as a foreign citizen, obligated to help?


if any human being , anywhere in the world is being assaulted , it’s my duty as a human to help.

6.  What is the penalty for apostasy?  Do you approve?

yes approve it,( if Muslims and Muslim scholars care about my opinion)
the penalty is to be left alone.
those who are muslims instructed to fight and sam harris refers to all the time is the ones who were “hypocrite”( in the Islamic meaning) and then when Muslims were under attack changed there religion to fight Muslims then Muslims are asked to fight them and kill them if they attack Muslims ( using force , not attacking them in debate or a conversation) ...there’s a line for Muslims they don’t cross, it’s just often blurred by Anti-Muslims, to confuse people.
its like treason, if the American army in war with another country , and group of American soldiers decided to go fight for the other army…what would they be called?
traitors.
not because they changed side , but because they also killed Americans like them in the process, so in Islam its the same it’s in war time only considered an act of treason.

as i said Quarn is the Constitution to all Muslims and if one thing is not clearly mentioned in the Quran , it means basically it has a 99% chance of being not true.


i realize you might want to show me as defending Islam as religion, but i was inclined to answer, not in defense of it , but in defense of the facts against fiction.

again thanks for the previous conversation, and please if you want this one to be about the religion start a new topic, add your questions and my answers ( or even let me add them when i see it) , but to make the distinction between the 2 ( People & religion ) it’s better to do so.

[ Edited: 30 September 2010 13:39 by theFreethinker]
 
Reerr
 
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Reerr
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01 October 2010 13:25
 

First, I would like to, again, bring some clarity.  I did not post those questions as a segway into a different topic, I believe the answers will help elucidate our differences, and perhaps open your eyes by virtue of your own responses, to the points I am trying to make.  I haven’t had much luck so far, but I thought getting you to openly discuss these things I might drag out some new talking points.

OK, lets try a different tack.

Lets get started:

as a closing to the first main issue of this thread, it was about is there hope for muslim?
i believe yes, i refuse to make a connection between false teaching and actual belief, non of the muslims kill because god told them to, they kill because they feel they’re being unjustifiably attacked or discriminated against.

 

“Whoso commits aggression against you, do you commit aggression against him like as he has committed against you, and fear you God, and know that God is with the godfearing.

So, contrary to your statement that “non of the muslims kill because god told them to”, it appears, by virtue of the second half of that quote, and the following verse from “God”, that is precisely what muslims are commanded to do.  You will naturally say that it doesn’t translate like that for YOU, and again, I am not saying that every muslim is a jihadist, but the text is pretty clear cut.  I have heard this verse so many times in defense of Islam, ironically alongside the plea from oppression and aggression from the west, and the two in conjunction appear to not only support violence in defense of Islam, but practically make it a tenet of the faith. 

Considering everything we have gone through to get to this point, can you at least admit that the above interpretation is plausible?

This next set of quotes will demonstrate that the quran makes it pitifully easy to demonize and kill other muslims, just because they follow a different view of sharia:

they were Muslims, or at least they claimed to be , but they didn’t oppose islam , or criticize it ( which happened in that age too)  , but they refused to do any of islam requirements , and at some point they allied non muslims in war against muslims.

Even you are subconsciously marginalizing them as probably not true muslims, therefore probably not covered under the verse:

there’s a verse in quran says: that a Muslim can not kill a Muslim and that who does, will never be forgiven.
and as long as they kept the faith they have to be treated as muslims how they do jihad against them

See?  Your statements are full of caveat’s, reasonably construed as methods to consider those who do not follow the faith as you do to be fair game.  This goes back to my original issue with Islam, which you are completely missing the point about:

I think, however, that we’re rapidly floating off the point, here.  Far too much time is spent on attempting to tease out the “true” meaning of Islam, or the “real” christians. These two concepts are illusions, constructed by men and women who are certain that some benevolent deity exists, and has written a book for us. Through the course of our trials in attempting to discern what this deity has put down, we have discovered every possible method of justifying our every desire. The books essentially take very human drives, magnify them, and root their justification outside reality. This separation of our moral and ethical impulses from reality on is the REAL problem with Islam. Belief that the creator of the universe has given us homework while we wait for the end of the world has been a massive diversion from the problems we should have been facing, and ultimately have begun facing, in a progressively secular world.

Even if you are right, how do you know for sure?  You have not mustered evidence of Muhammad flying to Jerusalem on a winged horse, nor can you.  You have not spoken directly with Muhammed, nor even Allah, so how can you be positive that your interpretation is right?  This kernel of doubt is everything, and is the main thrust of Sam Harris’ book The End of Faith.  As long as the religious bank their worldview on supernatural claims, and interpretations of so-called ‘divine texts’, we will have a problem with religious lunacy.  You have as much right to tell the fundamentalists that they are wrong, as they have to tell you that you are wrong, because neither of you has the keys to absolute truth.  You’re both playing a deadly game of tic-tac-toe, and everyone is losing.

But I digress, let’s continue:

it’s only called jiahd if you attack them because of there belief, and to force them to abandon that belief then its called jiahd, and remember the violent act of war is only a reply in the quran for another act of war , and it was never instructed in the quran to be the aggressor.

then again i never said Muslim countries are alone in there miserable experience, but someone like you will feel threatened because of the terrorism threat not because of islam , </b>its because the muslim world sees it self in conflict with the west ... i said that a billion times already.

The second quote was from page 3.  Here, you see that the “self-defense” points you raised are, again, obfuscation.  You have already established, vehemently, that the western colonial powers have done terrible things to muslims, and this is why they are so angry.  I can readily admit that the west has done terrible things, and have already admitted so:

I’ve shown you, and told you about many many issues away from religion, that affects these people and you had not a little regard to them , not a little compassion, you even ignore the points that i clearly told you we agree at.

I have conceded those points, there are other factors involved.  I remain convinced that religion is the most powerful factor, and the one least likely to abate anytime soon.  Muslims are mightily attached to Islam, and this presents a problem, for reasons I have expressed ad nauseum throughout our exchange.  You can disagree, and have, but it is dishonest to pretend the arguments do not exist.

However, I will again affirm my position:

Your arguments pointing to the ill behavior of other nations has no bearing on this discussion.  Islam is not innocent just because the rest of the world is guilty.  Islamists must own up to their own behavior, take responsibility for their own actions, just like the rest of us do.

Now, before I wrap this up, there are a few other points I would like to address, prior to you bringing them up again in defense:

First, on Hussein:

you really don’t know the extent of what he and his family members did to the iraqi people

I absolutely do, I actually met people in Baghdad when I was there in ‘03, and they told me such horror stories.  I saw his palaces in contrast to the populace, and I was surprised at the reaction of the people, a reaction I can readily pull from your responses here:

are you aware that at least 50% of the problem is caused by the troops

Here, you seem to decry the invasion of Iraq.  Considering how you felt about Hussein, and the actions of his political party, blaming the troops who removed him seems a bewildering concept.  Are you aware that he would still be in power, if not for the “troops”.  Would you rather we had just assassinated his entire political regime and left the country to whoever wanted to run it?  Again, you state:

it will show they accomplished nothing.

Speaking about the removal of his political regime.  Fine, lets say I grant you that, considering that much of what we have done in Iraq remains highly questionable.  What would you have done in our place?  Should we have just let him remain until he died?  Assassinated him and his family?  I do think we should never have put him in power, but 30 years ago, I was not around to make such decisions or judgements, and I doubt you were either.  Here, now, in the world we live in, what would you have done, and how?  Muslims like to criticize Operation Iraqi Freedom, but I have yet to hear an alternative proposal.

Anyways, on to the passages question, which I will partially repost here:

3.  Where do the passages about witchcraft, female subjugation, and hating non-believers….

OK, we have discussed the non-believers portion already, above.  I suppose I should redirect this question with a rhetorical:  Are you aware of the fact that Islam is considered an Abrahamic religion?  Are you aware of the reason?

Next subject:

What if all muslims turned their energy towards overthrowing corrupt governments in their own countries?

What if the American colonies had not resisted, and gone to war with, and ultimately threw off, the oppression from Britain?  How many lives were lost in the American Revolution?  There is a cost for freedom.  That is the purpose of this question.  No one will GIVE you freedom, or rights, or oppression free lifestyles.  These things are not rights, they are privileges, and must be both earned and defended.

i can show you thousands of web pages for people and groups who speak out against what they suffer.

And with those same pages I can show you tens of thousands of people who are NOT fighting for their rights.  You see now why I don’t care?  If these things were important enough to you, you would be fighting for them NOW.  I cannot do it for you, and in the case of OIF, neither can the US Government, obviously.  WE are, however, trying, perhaps not all of us with a clear conscience, but the majority of the military really wants to make a difference in these countries.  The individual troops are trying to help, but, like I said before, they cannot do it for you.  And change like this will NOT happen if you’re chained to the quran.

[ Edited: 08 March 2011 06:58 by Reerr]
 
Reerr
 
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01 October 2010 13:26
 

Finally, we turn to this, your most disgusting, immoral, and intolerant injunction, justified by deference to your holy book, and supported by the worst argument possible;

6.  What is the penalty for apostasy?  Do you approve?

yes approve it,( if Muslims and Muslim scholars care about my opinion)
the penalty is to be left alone.

Disgusting, immoral, and intolerant because you are approving of an injunction to kill other human beings on account of thought crimes.  An action I would have thought you couldn’t tolerate given your previous statement, “if any human being , anywhere in the world is being assaulted , it’s my duty as a human to help.”

Now, before you fly off the handle, I did see your justifications.  I think the argument presented in defense of murder is atrocious, considering that apostasy has everything to do with giving up the faith, and nothing to do with killing muslims.  Let me first quote you, then I will discuss why this is a terrible comparison:

those who are muslims instructed to fight and sam harris refers to all the time is the ones who were “hypocrite”( in the Islamic meaning) and then when Muslims were under attack changed there religion to fight Muslims then Muslims are asked to fight them and kill them if they attack Muslims ( using force , not attacking them in debate or a conversation) ...there’s a line for Muslims they don’t cross, it’s just often blurred by Anti-Muslims, to confuse people.
its like treason, if the American army in war with another country , and group of American soldiers decided to go fight for the other army…what would they be called?
traitors.
not because they changed side , but because they also killed Americans like them in the process, so in Islam its the same it’s in war time only considered an act of treason.

You will notice that I have quoted you at some length, in an attempt to contain all of your response.  First, I want to note that this was the most difficult portion out of any of your posts to understand, as the english is terrible.  I don’t hold this against you, but I may confuse your response, and if so, I did the best I could. 

Your defense of Apostasy as a legitimate tenet of Islam is first and foremost unfounded.  The crime of apostasy is renunciation, in word or deed, of Islam.  There is no widespread acceptance of any interpretation requiring a subsequent changing of sides and murder of muslims, as this would simply be called treason and treated as such.  Apostasy is no more, no less, a thought crime, and it carries the penalty of death.

I would point you to Salman Rushdie for evidence of the narrow scope of this injunction.  Your attempt at equating apostasy with treason amounts to bad argumentation, obfuscation, and dishonesty.  Who did Mr. Rushdie kill?

Qur’an (4:89), (9:11-12), 2:217, 9:73-74, 88:21, 5:54, and 9:66.

But again, we run up against the ever-present ‘interpretation’ defense.  That is not, I presume, how YOU interpret it, correct?  Again, that is a non-issue as it pertains to my criticism of Islam.  The verses are there, the behavioral results are in evidence, and the “true” interpretation is an illusion.

This is both a religious and a political problem, but while muslims suffer under political pressures and colonial grievances, their actions, or at least the actions of many tens of thousands, if not millions, are the result of the tenets of Islam.  So yes, I believe at this point I could concede that the religion may not have caused the present circumstance, though I still think this debatable, I definitely think the religion guides the reactions to it.

 
theFreethinker
 
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01 October 2010 15:41
 

Finally, we turn to this, your most disgusting, immoral, and intolerant injunction, justified by deference to your holy book, and supported by the worst argument possible;

i don’t know why for a minute i expected a decent intelligent reply, not approving of anything i said , but at least decent.

but it’s funny how an immoral argument tries to turn the tables…unfortunately its un-turntable this time
how many times on the arguments you accused me falsely of quoting you out of context and look what you did
first your quote

  6.  What is the penalty for apostasy?  Do you approve?
  yes approve it,( if Muslims and Muslim scholars care about my opinion)
  the penalty is to be left alone.

second my original answer

the penalty is to be left alone.
those who are muslims instructed to fight and sam harris refers to all the time is the ones who were “hypocrite”( in the Islamic meaning) and then when Muslims were under attack changed there religion to fight Muslims then Muslims are asked to fight them and kill them if they attack Muslims ( using force , not attacking them in debate or a conversation) ...there’s a line for Muslims they don’t cross, it’s just often blurred by Anti-Muslims, to confuse people.
its like treason, if the American army in war with another country , and group of American soldiers decided to go fight for the other army…what would they be called?
traitors.
not because they changed side , but because they also killed Americans like them in the process, so in Islam its the same it’s in war time only considered an act of treason.

i never approved to killing for thought, i saw the “trick” in your question and i informed you of that look

i realize you might want to show me as defending Islam as religion, but i was inclined to answer, not in defense of it , but in defense of the facts against fiction.

but yet you choose to walk the same path.

let me then back up to the start of your strangest argument to date.

Finally, we turn to this, your most disgusting, immoral, and intolerant injunction, justified by deference to your holy book, and supported by the worst argument possible;

oh dear , here you again try to describe me as muslim , did i ever said that or stated such fact?
all i said to many people and only you , that i live in the middle of it, the rest is up for speculations.
i intentionally left it to be a “speculation” , because only a someone with an agenda will try to convert mer chattering to a personal assault on the person who opposes his agenda.

so into your path we see
my answer

as a closing to the first main issue of this thread, it was about is there hope for muslim?
i believe yes, i refuse to make a connection between false teaching and actual belief, non of the muslims kill because god told them to, they kill because they feel they’re being unjustifiably attacked or discriminated against.

and again

“Whoso commits aggression against you, do you commit aggression against him like as he has committed against you, and fear you God, and know that God is with the godfearing

show me where i approved of such act , it was just am explanation , and if i remember correctly the same explanation is in every post i wrote in this thread, but yes as i remember in this path you need all you can get to put your show together.

So, contrary to your statement that “non of the muslims kill because god told them to”, it appears, by virtue of the second half of that quote, and the following verse from “God”, that is precisely what muslims are commanded to do.  You will naturally say that it doesn’t translate like that for YOU, and again, I am not saying that every muslim is a jihadist, but the text is pretty clear cut.  I have heard this verse so many times in defense of Islam, ironically alongside the plea from oppression and aggression from the west, and the two in conjunction appear to not only support violence in defense of Islam, but practically make it a tenet of the faith.

if they’ll have a definition for Bullshit in the dictionary they will use the quoted paragraph as reference.

how is it contradictory, where did i mention translation?
i specifically said , and you didn’t quote the following

all muslims use the quran literally and in the literal sense and understanding of that book

so nothing left out , you want to create the illusion of what you imply .
they don’t do it under any direction from what they consider god, they do it in what they believe self defense, as simple as that ,

Even you are subconsciously marginalizing them as probably not true muslims, therefore probably not covered under the verse

not really i just transferred what’s told in the story book that’s called history in the literal manner, i didn’t marginalize them let me just show you the things you try to convence people with

and at some point they allied non muslims in war against muslims.
the problem with them is that they kept there claim to be muslims , and there’s a verse in quran says: that a Muslim can not kill a Muslim and that who does, will never be forgiven.
and as long as they kept the faith they have to be treated as muslims how they do jihad against them >>>ill come to it after defining all the categories.

so not as wanted people to see, not even then they were marginalized , they were seen as muslims and treated as muslims until they not on.y changed the religion , but engaged muslims in war .
there’s not one history claim that there prophet or them killed someone who left the religion just for leaving or converting , not one incident in history.
so o now you’re abandoned the confusion game and converted to just strait false data

then you quote yourself creating the illusion of quoting me and then replying to your self

  I think, however, that we’re rapidly floating off the point, here.  Far too much time is spent on attempting to tease out the “true” meaning of Islam, or the “real” christians. These two concepts are illusions, constructed by men and women who are certain that some benevolent deity exists, and has written a book for us. Through the course of our trials in attempting to discern what this deity has put down, we have discovered every possible method of justifying our every desire. The books essentially take very human drives, magnify them, and root their justification outside reality. This separation of our moral and ethical impulses from reality on is the REAL problem with Islam. Belief that the creator of the universe has given us homework while we wait for the end of the world has been a massive diversion from the problems we should have been facing, and ultimately have begun facing, in a progressively secular world.


Even if you are right, how do you know for sure?  You have not mustered evidence of Muhammad flying to Jerusalem on a winged horse, nor can you.  You have not spoken directly with Muhammed, nor even Allah, so how can you be positive that your interpretation is right?  This kernel of doubt is everything, and is the main thrust of Sam Harris’ book The End of Faith.  As long as the religious bank their worldview on supernatural claims, and interpretations of so-called ‘divine texts’, we will have a problem with religious lunacy.  You have as much right to tell the fundamentalists that they are wrong, as they have to tell you that you are wrong, because neither of you has the keys to absolute truth.  You’re both playing a deadly game of tic-tac-toe, and everyone is losing.


you said what was quoted and then replied to it.

but let assume you didn’t to show me the points i messed , ok
ill just quote one false fact of your silly argument

on a winged horse

give one actual muslim reference to that description ?
nothing in the muslims books refers to any description of such animal, it was a story like any other religious story at any religion and what carried him is unknown , its something , what it’s is unknown.
because simply in the quran only mentioned that he went without any details , and the hadith as well, such stories originate from the history book which is known amongst muslims to contain many false data.

I have conceded those points, there are other factors involved.

if you concede and see other factors involved
the numbers of points you claim to concede alone torn the very fabric of your entire argument to pieces
you concede the scientists facts , and the corruption and the effect of the colonization ( historic and current)...etc and still argue.

Here, you seem to decry the invasion of Iraq.  Considering how you felt about Hussein, and the actions of his political party, blaming the troops who removed him seems a bewildering concept.

i didn’t , you said i did.

i only stated an opinion shared by many , that’s not a conviction , it’s an opinion.
and it doesn’t convect anything, or anyone.
let me SHOW you how contradicting you are.
your entire argument is to muslims to fix themselves and its not your problem , but when it came to U.S troop, which you were part of, you see no problem what so ever
and let me use the following quote as a conviction to your hypocrisy and allow to answer it too

Would you rather we had just assassinated his entire political regime and left the country to whoever wanted to run it?

so the U.S troops that didn’t find any weapons what so ever , moved to liberate the miserable people of iraq…yeah right
the answer to your silly question is simple, whoever wanted to run it is already running it, nothing changed , the only change is, now all 3 brothers of one country have weapons and reason to kill one another.
this doesn’t mean i changed my view of saddam or what ever happened to him , it means stating the facts as they are.

Speaking about the removal of his political regime.  Fine, lets say I grant you that, considering that much of what we have done in Iraq remains highly questionable.  What would you have done in our place?

sorry you’re not granting me anything , its fact.

again I’ll use our own answers, i don’t care , I’m not in you situation ,
but lets ask the questions
did the American troop went to Iraq to bring liberty? or to uncover the claimed weapons of mass destruction?
wasn’t liberty an exit strategy to cover the failure of the entire war , except the killing of 600,000 people (war-related deaths) as published by the Lancet surveys ( statistic is only from 2003 to 2006 )
and here’s analysis of the survey which was published on the Washington post
http://www.fumento.com/military/lancet2008.html
and i don’t say troops killed all of them but well, they’re well over half a million human (600,000+) so you had your good share.
don’t till me about morals.

What if the American colonies had not resisted, and gone to war with, and ultimately threw off, the oppression from Britain?  How many lives were lost in the American Revolution?  There is a cost for freedom.

yeah right…
how many soldier were raped in that war, how many tortured, how many British soldiers were there, what side France took ( yeah they remained “officially neutral” )...do you want more questions?( i know your history pretty well too).

[ Edited: 01 October 2010 17:00 by theFreethinker]
 
theFreethinker
 
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01 October 2010 16:35
 

I cannot do it for you, and in the case of OIF, neither can the US Government, obviously.

actually the U.S government can , but wont.( and i don’t mean army involvement ) they can stress matters and stop supporting what they know for a fact a corrupted regime.
they benefit of such situation, and under my current impression, you may do the same if asked.
Are they fighting? they are , and they’ll do more.
and now we go to you best argument to date

Finally, we turn to this, your most disgusting, immoral, and intolerant injunction, justified by deference to your holy book, and supported by the worst argument possible;

SHAME ON YOU.

your holy book

and as i said, where did i made the claim to be muslim?
i actually said

yes approve it,( if Muslims and Muslim scholars care about my opinion)

your really betting that people wont read the entire thing and take you last post as truth…see the red marked.

again I’m intentionally leaving it un-clarified, people with no agenda will know others from what they write , from decent conversation , not trickery and word games.
others don’t deserve the least amount of clarification neither respect.

You will notice that I have quoted you at some length, in an attempt to contain all of your response.  First, I want to note that this was the most difficult portion out of any of your posts to understand,

i doubt you understood , or even attempted too, you saw the post once and immediately replied…
you had the answers and accusations ready at hand before even seeing any of my reply , you just quoted what suites those convictions.

Salman Rushdie

lmao, fuck you’re killing me….( laughing and this time actually shitting myself, took 10 showers then came to read again)
.......( laughing again and nearly done it again….)
salman rushdie, i read the book before you’re even born.( i suppose)
i read it when he was unjustly convicted and the idiots in iran decided he should be killed.
i disagree with him ,again Islam and it’s history had not one incident of someone killed over thought crime,
neither do i approve of there convection of him, its preposterous , but again you’re deliberately confusing the readers.

I’m sorry but…
can’t you read for yourself, do you have to have someone to till you what to think…
read for yourself and verify facts from fiction, instead of quoting people ignorantly

Qur’an (4:89), (9:11-12), 2:217, 9:73-74, 88:21, 5:54, and 9:66.

( again can’t hold my laughs )
what the hell that means?
i don’t get it
Quran is categorized in the following order
1-sora- which is some what like a chapter , but in Quran its not numbered its named so to identify a verse in quran you need to have the chapters name , not number.

2-verses number- in each sore there are hundreds of verses which one , let take one of the numbers you copy/pasted and see if there’s something there,(again im using the quran Interpretation mentioned in my past posts .

9:73-74

let see if this is chapter 9 verse 73and 74 ( which out of context before even quoting them ( a context in quran means the entire mass of verses regarding the same issue , all put together and understanding is immediately made ( without the need of any interpretation)
chapter nine named Repentance
verse 73,74

O Prophet, struggle with the unbelievers and hypocrites, and be thou harsh with them; their refuge is Gehenna—an evil homecoming!

good now is it in context ...
lets see the following verses, you know these verses have a good story, there prophet Mohamed sympathized with the hypocrites and prayed for them until these verses came but plesae put all of them.
75-84

9:75 They swear by God that they said nothing, but they indeed said the word of unbelief and disbelieved, after they had surrendered. They purposed what they never attained to, and they took revenge only that God enriched them, and His Messenger, of His bounty. So if they repent it will be better for them; if they turn away, God will chastise them with a chastisement in this world and the next; on the earth they have no protector or helper.
And some of them have made covenant with God: ‘If He gives us of His bounty, we will make offerings and be of the righteous.’ Nevertheless, when He gave them of His bounty they were niggardly of it, and turned away, swerving aside. So as a consequence He put hypocrisy into their hearts, until the day they meet Him, for that they failed God in that they promised Him and they were liars.
Did they not know that God knows their secret and what they conspire together, and that God knows the things unseen?
9:80 Those who find fault with the believers who volunteer their freewill offerings, and those who find nothing but their endeavor they deride—God derides them; for them awaits a painful chastisement.
Ask pardon for them, or ask not pardon for them; if thou askest pardon for them seventy times, God will not pardon them; that, because they disbelieved in God and His Messenger; God guides not the people of the ungodly.
Those who were left behind rejoiced in tarrying behind the Messenger of God, and were averse to struggle with their possessions and their selves in the way of God. They said, ‘Go not forth in the heat.’ Say: ‘Gehenna’s fire is hotter, did they but understand.’ Therefore let them laugh little, and weep much, in recompense for what they have been earning. So, if God returns thee to a party of them and they ask leave of thee to go forth, say:
You shall not go forth with me ever, and you shall not fight with me any enemy. You were well-pleased to tarry the first time, so now tarry with those behind.’

now where did it say to kill?
there punishment is left to god in his life and the other….it specifically says that.
they lived and died as muslims the one thing they’re deprived of because they allied enemies in battle that the prophet will not trust them again or take them to battle.
do you want me to do this for the entire quran…?
do it yourself
you want to know, as i told you see the other side opinion, hear what they have to say, study what you need to understand , but don’t be an ignorant and say “you’re interested of something you barely know anything about”.

But again, we run up against the ever-present ‘interpretation’ defense

NO WE DID"NT and we will never do , i showed you with no interpretation an example of how deluded you are…
I just hope you’re not intentionally doing it

“true” interpretation is an illusion.

Again And Again And Again And Again And Again And Again And Again And Again And Again And Again….there is no such thing as interpretation Or True interpretation , there’s strait forward meaning any sane human with knowledge (fair knowledge) of arabic will understand it .
interpretation Is made recently by the radical, historically the 1st attempt to interpret the Quran was only in the beginning of the last century , from both arabs and orientalists .

[ Edited: 01 October 2010 17:25 by theFreethinker]
 
Reerr
 
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Reerr
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01 October 2010 18:16
 

Lets start with the beginning, where you take a phrase from a point I had made, which you completely avoided, in order to bring up the bogey man of racism again:

but it’s funny how an immoral Racist wants to turn the tables…unfortunately its un-turntable this time pal

The funny part is yet to come, but lets just reiterate my original point in this short quote: “yes approve it”. 

That said, lets begin again:

how many times on the arguments you accused me falsely of quoting you out of context and look what you did
first your quote

Now, I anticipated this response, and if you were to scroll down just a smidgen below that original post, I quoted the remainder, with the following two quotes from ME:

Now, before you fly off the handle, I did see your justifications.  I think the argument presented in defense of murder is atrocious, considering that apostasy has everything to do with giving up the faith, and nothing to do with killing muslims.  Let me first quote you, then I will discuss why this is a terrible comparison:

Then, after quoting you at some length,

You will notice that I have quoted you at some length, in an attempt to contain all of your response.  First, I want to note that this was the most difficult portion out of any of your posts to understand, as the english is terrible.  I don’t hold this against you, but I may confuse your response, and if so, I did the best I could.

Can you honestly say that I did not quote your full response?  The last sentence that you posted, “i realize you might want to show me as defending Islam as religion…” was a caveat I decided to leave out, as I didn’t feel it contributed to your original thought.

i never approved to killing for thought

yes approve it
the penalty is to be left alone.

Perhaps this is just terrible english on your part, but these two phrases are in direct contradiction, considering what apostasy actually means.  This is one aspect of Islam that I am fully aware of, and which has reared it’s ugly head in public discourse enough times that pretending it’s something more subtle is, to use your term, bullshit.  My point remains unchallenged, and my integrity untarnished.

But lets move on:

When I said:

I believe the answers will help elucidate our differences, and perhaps open your eyes by virtue of your own responses

How on earth did you subvert this into:

oh dear , here you again try to describe me as muslim < did i ever said that or stated such fact?
all i said to many people and only you , that i live in the middle of it, the rest is up for speculations.
i intentionally left it to be a “speculation” , because only a racist with an agenda will try to convert mer chattering to a personal assault on the person who opposes his racist agenda.

Basically, you assumed I was calling you a muslim, which I didn’t in that sentence, then you called me a racist, completely forgetting our previous conversations regarding the difference between muslims and arabs.  Let me be very, very clear about this, since I’m sick of the bullshit “racist” insults:

MUSLIMS AREN’T A FUCKING RACE, THEY’RE RELIGIOUS ADHERENTS NOT LIMITED TO A SINGLE RACE.

Get it?  Stop calling me a fucking racist, it doesn’t even make sense, and it is making you look stupid.

if they’ll have a definition for Bullshit in the dictionary they will use the quoted paragraph as reference.

how is it contradictory, where did i mention translation?

First, the word is “contrary”, not “contradiction”.  Second, you spent 5 posts talking about the difficulties of translating arabic into english, and how garbled the meaning can be.  This is why I appreciated you providing a translation you approved of.  And it’s not bullshit, it’s me pointing out the logical consequences of a literal interpretation of the quran, given what most muslims feel about the west.

Lets break this down:

1.  “all muslims use the quran LITERALLY and in the literal sense and understanding of that book” (emphasis added)

2.  The quran LITERALLY says, “Whoso commits aggression against you, do you commit aggression against him like as he has committed against you, and fear you God, and know that God is with the godfearing”

3.  Most muslims LITERALLY “feel they’re being unjustifiably attacked or discriminated against.”

Since you have a history of being a little dim, I’ll make it even simpler:

1.  Literal translation of quran is best.
2.  quran says kill in self-defense.
3.  muslims feel they are part of an ongoing conflict, and any action is considered self-defense against oppression/colonialism, therefore mandated by the faith.

How is this not glaringly obvious to you?

This next one is pretty funny:

then you quote yourself creating the illusion of quoting me and then replying to your self

First, I did not, I carefully framed the first as a previous post of mine when I said:

This goes back to my original issue with Islam, which you are completely missing the point about:

This sentence came directly before the quoted paragraph, in an attempt to restate my position.  Thats ok, though, you seemed to dismiss this as soon as you listed it, and went down this blind ally:

give one actual muslim reference to that description ?
nothing in the muslims books refers to any description of such animal, it was a story like any other religious story at any religion and what carried him is unknown , its something , what it’s is unknown.
because simply in the quran only mentioned that he went with any details , and the hadith as well, such stories originate from the history book which is known amongst muslims to contain many false data.

If you would prefer to quibble over silly details, then substitute “Allah” for “Muhammad flying to Jerusalem on a winged horse”, and respond again.  The fact that all you have to say after those two paragraphs is that I have misunderstood one of the details of a fairytale is rather telling.  Again, you chase red herrings and avoid the points.

This next one is a little tricky, and I see you have completely misunderstood me again:

if you concede and see other factors involved , so again you’re not only immoral by a hypocrite ( the western meaning) .
the numbers of points you claim to concede alone torn the very fabric of your entire argument to pieces
you concede the scientists facts , and the corruption and the effect of the colonization ( historic and current)...etc and still argue

When I said “I have conceded those points”, there was a bit more to this statement.  Interestingly enough, you didn’t quote the entire paragraph, explaining the limitations of the concession.  Here, I’ll do it for you:

I have conceded those points, there are other factors involved.  I remain convinced that religion is the most powerful factor, and the one least likely to abate anytime soon.  Muslims are mightily attached to Islam, and this presents a problem, for reasons I have expressed ad nauseum throughout our exchange.

I did not concede the science argument, I conceded that there are other factors involved which acted alongside religious orthodoxy to stifle progress in science.  Corruption and effects of colonization are the factors, which act alongside religion.  Religion is still, in my opinion, the most powerful factor influencing not just the climate, but the reaction to the climate.  However, while other countries are involved, and other factors are influential, Islam is most certainly complicit in the current political and social dynamic out of which Islamists now explode, and I spoke about this in this quote:

Your arguments pointing to the ill behavior of other nations has no bearing on this discussion.  Islam is not innocent just because the rest of the world is guilty.  Islamists must own up to their own behavior, take responsibility for their own actions, just like the rest of us do.

My argument remains as strong as ever.  I have agreed with you that there are other factors; I never claimed religion was the one and only reason for trouble in the middle east, or trouble for muslims.  I only argued that Islam was the most prescient problem for muslims, and even for arabs who aren’t adherents, but must live alongside and within muslims and muslim countries.  Apparently, with the advent of modern technology, the rest of the world now has to deal with Islamic lunacy.  Awesome.

On to the next non-sequitor:

are you aware that at least 50% of the problem is caused by the troops

i only stated an opinion shared by many , that’s not a conviction , it’s an opinion.

You are backpeddling.  Your statement was not accompanied by any detractors, it was asserted as an accusation of ignorance on my part.  If you said “are you aware that the sky is green”, and I challenged, would you then say “oh, that’s just an opinion, not my opinion”.  If it is not your opinion, why would you bring it up?  Who are you arguing for?

But wait, it gets better, because in the next sentence, you apparently reaffirm this “opinion” by saying:

your entire argument is to muslims to fix themselves and its not your problem , but when it came to U.S troop, which you were part of, you see no problem what so ever

So…are the troops a problem, as you seemed to indicate previously, and just now, or are they not, as you claimed when you regressed into “just an opinion”?  You’re going to have to make up your mind, you can’t play two sides of the same coin and expect to get away with it.

Let me take care of this last part real quickly, your link is just too good to bury in my post:

yeah right…
how many soldier were raped in that war, how many tortured, how many British soldiers were there, what side France took ( yeah they remained “officially neutral” )...do you want more questions?( i know your history pretty well too).

I am talking about a revolution that happened (american revolution), compared to a revolution that HASN’T HAPPENED YET (muslim revolution).  A revolution that, if the corruption and oppression is as bad as you claim it is, desperately NEEDS to happen.  Which makes your knowledge of my history (which is erroneous; you do realize we came very fucking close to losing that war, right?), and your whole sentence, a big, fat non-sequitor.

********************

Saved the best for last!!  You went on an anti-american rant here, completely avoiding the actual questions I asked, and rehashing old news as if I’ll be stunned.  As an aside, I love how attempting to bring liberty to an oppressed people is decried as “an exit strategy to cover the failure of the entire war” as if liberty is somehow not desirable if it’s merely a byproduct.  But regardless, you then presented a link with a twice quoted figure of 600,000 deaths.  This figure is far above any other figure, INCLUDING FIGURES DONE BY THE IRAQIS.  Now, I know, this is a crazy idea, I should provide source material to counter your source, right?

http://www.fumento.com/military/lancet2008.html

Yeah, your link, providing numbers from the Lancet Survey, is an article about how wrong the Lancet Survey was.  You are obviously not reading anything but the google summary before linking.  Seriously, the title of the article is: “THE LANCET STUDY OF IRAQ DEATHS IS FURTHER DISCREDITED” which would seem to suggest that this is just one of many articles showing just how wrong that survey is.

Golden.

[ Edited: 01 October 2010 18:19 by Reerr]
 
Reerr
 
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01 October 2010 18:42
 

Again And Again And Again And Again And Again And Again And Again And Again And Again And Again….there is no such thing as interpretation Or True interpretation , there’s strait forward meaning any sane human with knowledge (fair knowledge) of arabic will understand it .
interpretation Is made recently by the radical, historically the 1st attempt to interpret the Quran was only in the beginning of the last century , from both arabs and orientalists .

There, now I won’t be accused of not quoting your entire paragraph.  Unfortunately, I only need just one phrase:

...And Again….there is no such thing as interpretation Or True interpretation , there’s strait forward meaning any sane human with knowledge (fair knowledge) of arabic will understand it…

What do you think the radicals say?  Your “strait forward meaning” is the definition of interpretation:

-An interpretation is an assignment of meaning to the symbols of a language. Many formal languages used in mathematics, logic, and theoretical computer science are defined in solely syntactic terms, and as such do not have any meaning until they are given some interpretation

-a mental representation of the meaning or significance of something

-interpreted - understood in a certain way; made sense of; “a word taken literally”; “a smile taken as consent”; “an open door interpreted as an invitation”

You are basically toting around the ego of a god when claiming to understand perfectly the words of the quran.  You think you have the right interpretation, or “understanding”, or “meaning”, or whatever you want to call it while pretending your omniscient, but the fact of the matter is that you have about as much right to claim the truth as the radical. 

The problem is NOT that they are misinterpreting, it is that both you and the radical think there is a proper way to interpret the words of a mythical sky-daddy intent on policing the misfortunes of it’s progeny.

Your continued complaints at being called a muslim are frankly laughable.  Anyone who takes seriously the supernatural claims made by a man 1400 years ago is religious, and being born in a muslim country indicates that you are muslim (99% of the time).

The rest of your post is garbage, all I needed to do is point to the relevant passages.

 
theFreethinker
 
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01 October 2010 19:36
 

The funny part is yet to come, but lets just reiterate my original point in this short quote: “yes approve it”.

man give yourself and others time to read, go back to what you quoted , i did wrote it , iwill not deny something i did, but i immediately edited , why?
because its indecent , even if i think what you say is so.
now what bogey?
wake up and smell reality

Can you honestly say that I did not quote your full response?

hmmm

yes write , when you quote the fist 2 lines of an answer then comment on them , then quote the rest ans say things like (I have quoted you at some length, ) , it doesn’t make true,
you quote the the part where i said approve then quote the other part…that’s called out of context

direct contradiction,

hmmm
no why move along let stay and see what i exactly said in full cotext

yes approve it,( if Muslims and Muslim scholars care about my opinion)
the penalty is to be left alone.
those who are muslims instructed to fight and sam harris refers to all the time is the ones who were “hypocrite”( in the Islamic meaning) and then when Muslims were under attack changed there religion to fight Muslims then Muslims are asked to fight them and kill them if they attack Muslims ( using force , not attacking them in debate or a conversation) ...there’s a line for Muslims they don’t cross, it’s just often blurred by Anti-Muslims, to confuse people.
its like treason, if the American army in war with another country , and group of American soldiers decided to go fight for the other army…what would they be called?
traitors.
not because they changed side , but because they also killed Americans like them in the process, so in Islam its the same it’s in war time only considered an act of treason.

and now lets take the part of the quran that speaks about this issue( among other parts)

9:75 They swear by God that they said nothing, but they indeed said the word of unbelief and disbelieved, after they had surrendered. They purposed what they never attained to, and they took revenge only that God enriched them, and His Messenger, of His bounty. So if they repent it will be better for them; if they turn away, God will chastise them with a chastisement in this world and the next; on the earth they have no protector or helper.
And some of them have made covenant with God: ‘If He gives us of His bounty, we will make offerings and be of the righteous.’ Nevertheless, when He gave them of His bounty they were niggardly of it, and turned away, swerving aside. So as a consequence He put hypocrisy into their hearts, until the day they meet Him, for that they failed God in that they promised Him and they were liars.
Did they not know that God knows their secret and what they conspire together, and that God knows the things unseen?
9:80 Those who find fault with the believers who volunteer their freewill offerings, and those who find nothing but their endeavor they deride—God derides them; for them awaits a painful chastisement.
Ask pardon for them, or ask not pardon for them; if thou askest pardon for them seventy times, God will not pardon them; that, because they disbelieved in God and His Messenger; God guides not the people of the ungodly.
Those who were left behind rejoiced in tarrying behind the Messenger of God, and were averse to struggle with their possessions and their selves in the way of God. They said, ‘Go not forth in the heat.’ Say: ‘Gehenna’s fire is hotter, did they but understand.’ Therefore let them laugh little, and weep much, in recompense for what they have been earning. So, if God returns thee to a party of them and they ask leave of thee to go forth, say:
You shall not go forth with me ever, and you shall not fight with me any enemy. You were well-pleased to tarry the first time, so now tarry with those behind.’

now if that is not clear enough…its hopeless
There’s no contradiction , it’s not going to happen just because you say its
Stop twisting facts and misquoting every little thing

now i was really polite for the entire length of this thread (as much as i could) but now you’re just lying ...or maybe I’m Imagining

Basically, you assumed I was calling you a muslim, which I didn’t

hmmm you didn’t ? so what does the following mean marked in red

Finally, we turn to this, your most disgusting, immoral, and intolerant injunction, justified by deference to your holy book, and supported by the worst argument possible;

your mean it belongs to me , so whether i wrote it or i’m a muslim , given the fact that i wasn’t alive some thousand years ago i didn’t write it, so it implies one thing ...
both way , it really doesn’t matter to me , i’m just showing that you say something and then deny it.

MUSLIMS AREN’T A FUCKING RACE, THEY’RE RELIGIOUS ADHERENTS NOT LIMITED TO A SINGLE RACE.

now you surely don’t understand the meaning of the word racism
if you are discriminating and oppressing a specific group of people, you are a racist
yes the original definition means discrimination against a RACE , but now it’s the same thing ,if i oppress and mistreat people who have autism ,because they have autism , I’m a racist.
another example, if someone based on your argument someone commits a genocide against a huge number of muslims because they’re muslims , its racism he’s selectively sublimating them because of a specific criteria.

Get it?  Stop calling me a fucking racist, it doesn’t even make sense, and it is making you look stupid.

1- if i did , it was a mistake, ( that I’m not apologizing for)
2-it makes sense , perfect sense
3- let the frame of my sanity be decided by those who read this thread…in another words, it’s non of your business.

Since you have a history of being a little dim, I’ll make it even simpler:

1.  Literal translation of quran is best.
2.  quran says kill in self-defense.
3.  muslims feel they are part of an ongoing conflict, and any action is considered self-defense against oppression/colonialism, therefore mandated by the faith.

1- no it’s not, there’s no such thing as literal translation , i don’t even think any of those who did offer an English interpretation called it a translation.
2- no, Quran says, Defend your self and that’s for a reason , do you know it??
oh well you claim you did but again for other people , in the first 13 year of islam they’re instructed not to fight (actual history go find it ) not even is self defense, so it was required to them that when they do it comes through the quran .
3- no, they feel they’re attacked , and the radical media tells them every day , its because of there religion, and using the arguments of people like you they convince some…look they just hate you because you’re muslims.
so its not religion originated , it’s originated out the ignorance and arrogance of most parties involved.

I have misunderstood one of the details of a fairytale

not you didn’t misunderstood, you knowingly presented false information, there’s a difference.
the first is understanding and it’s fixable the second is intentional false propaganda

I have conceded those points, there are other factors involved.  I remain convinced that religion is the most powerful factor, and the one least likely to abate anytime soon.  Muslims are mightily attached to Islam, and this presents a problem, for reasons I have expressed and nauseum throughout our exchange.

oh pleas let me reply with your own words

This is both a religious and a political problem, but while muslims suffer under political pressures and colonial grievances, their actions, or at least the actions of many tens of thousands, if not millions, are the result of the tenets of Islam.  So yes, I believe at this point I could concede that the religion may not have caused the present circumstance, though I still think this debatable, I definitely think the religion guides the reactions to it.

see i understand you still think religion has a rule, but the first part means what?

the religion may not have caused the present circumstance.

now this not misquoting I’m just highlighting tonight attraction
( please don’t repeat it i understand you still think religion is guiding the reaction…etc)

My argument remains as strong as ever.

funny, i never saw it as “strong”

Apparently, with the advent of modern technology, the rest of the world now has to deal with Islamic lunacy.  Awesome.

what lunacy ?
you know what forget it , you don’t know the people not one of them and you call them lunatics?
rant along.

You are backpeddling.  Your statement was not accompanied by any detractors, it was asserted as an accusation of ignorance on my part.  If you said “are you aware that the sky is green”, and I challenged, would you then say “oh, that’s just an opinion, not my opinion”.  If it is not your opinion, why would you bring it up?  Who are you arguing for?

let me use your silly argument again
if i said are you aware the the color blue at has at least 10% green, that’s an opinion and a fact in the same time, any blue must have green , but the percentage we could argue over
that’s exactly what i said , at least 50% , it means i believe they’re part of the problem and my estimate for it is 50% . ( I’m really wondering why bother at all )
challenge as you want , it’s your funeral after all

So…are the troops a problem, as you seemed to indicate previously, and just now, or are they not, as you claimed when you regressed into “just an opinion”?  You’re going to have to make up your mind, you can’t play two sides of the same coin and expect to get away with it.

see i told you your just making shit up
let me quote that again

your entire argument is to muslims to fix themselves and its not your problem , but when it came to U.S troop, which you were part of, you see no problem what so ever

do you understand that the quoted is what i think you said?
what you quoted is you conviction of muslims against your agreement to US troop…get it.

I am talking about a revolution that happened (American revolution)

you’re clearly not even putting the effort to understand what i write, it’s no wonder you don’t get why you’re argument is immoral.
i know , it’s called also (American civil war), because it was 2 different points of view both having an army fighting,it was between those who remained loyal for the British crown ( or claimed to be )for obvious reasons) and Patriots in 13 colonies that constituted British North America….I’m not arguing your own history with you ( who knows if you really know it)

completely avoiding the actual questions I asked,

wow Difficult question ?
please ask it again , i need something difficult to answer…

 
theFreethinker
 
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01 October 2010 19:45
 

me too saving the best for last

, I love how attempting to bring liberty to an oppressed people is decried as “an exit strategy to cover the failure of the entire war” as if liberty is somehow not desirable if it’s merely a byproduct.

1- what liberty?
2-it was an exit strategy and the fact Obama came changed nothing, given the republicans stayed at office they would’ve left too. and also they would’ve left some troops behind ( probably forever)
It was an exit strategy

and good your using my own link, apparently you again selectively took what you wanted and left the rest take a look at the last few lines

Yeah, your link, providing numbers from the Lancet Survey, is an article about how wrong the Lancet Survey was.  You are obviously not reading anything but the google summary before linking.  Seriously, the title of the article is: “THE LANCET STUDY OF IRAQ DEATHS IS FURTHER DISCREDITED” which would seem to suggest that this is just one of many articles showing just how wrong that survey is.

look there

CLARIFICATION: In the version that appears in The Weekly Standard paper edition, in the second paragraph, the Lancet 2006 figure is correct but it should have been noted, as I have here, that a slightly lower figure of 600,000 was attributed directly to war violence. All further references and comparisons, whether as paraphrased by me or as quoted in the IFHS study, are to the lower violence-only figure.

see slightly
ok what are the estimates
how many have you killed in Iraq, or Afghanistan, or both , how many of you were killed, how many families lost fathers, sons daughters…etc, how many lived in fear, how many were tortured by you liberating troop and how many of them were tortured…do you want me to go on

i’m not pushing an anti-American view, i’m far from doing so, I had friends amongst them back then some i’m still in contact with and some not…that’s the point DO YOU GET IT.
HUMANITY FIRST
humanity is above anything , religion , atheism, secularism…anything that discriminates against people ( any people) is unacceptable.
i stated facts, well known and well documented…has nothing to do of what i feel or think about the same facts.

again…Wake up and smell the reality

 
Reerr
 
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02 October 2010 03:04
 

This is going to be the title of my post: “Stop twisting facts and misquoting every little thing”.

you quote the the part where i said approve then quote the other part…that’s called out of context

I quoted your statement, to address it, then quoted your “context”, and addressed that, seperately.  I quoted you honestly, and have done so this entire exchange, unlike what you have done numerous times in just this post I’m responding to.  The obvious difference that I think following readers will latch onto is the fact that I am actually addressing the points you make, while you are changing my message through massive misquotation in order to beat up straw men.  You may ultimately be right, but you’re a terrible conversationalist.  In fact, directly below the above statement, you quoted “direct contradiction,” two words . . .I had to do a page search to find where I had put those.  You then go on to miss the point of the misquoted sentence:

i never approved to killing for thought

yes approve it
the penalty is to be left alone.

Perhaps this is just terrible english on your part, but these two phrases are in direct contradiction, considering what apostasy actually means.

I even included a detailed explanation of just what apostasy means, and how it is justified in Islamic theology, but how did you respond to this?

There’s no contradiction , it’s not going to happen just because you say its

You are essentially saying that I claimed there was a contradiction in the quran.  While I don’t doubt the existence of one, that was not source of this contradiction, as is clear when I am quoted in context.  But, again, why bother clarifying these things for you, you’re just going to ignore me with your fingers in your ears while you scream racism….and still ignore the argument.  Keep obfuscating, its what apologists do best.

Next, you AGAIN misquoted me, where an entire sentence would have smashed your nonsense to bits:

Basically, you assumed I was calling you a muslim, which I didn’t

Sounds like a complete thought, ladies and gentlemen, but wait, theres MORE:

Basically, you assumed I was calling you a muslim, which I didn’t in that sentence, then you called me a racist, completely forgetting our previous conversations regarding the difference between muslims and arabs.

See the most important part in bold?  Kind of makes this following sentence pointless:

hmmm you didn’t ? so what does the following mean marked in red

You then quoted a different sentence where I had assumed you were a muslim.  Go back and read the bold, please.  Then read it again.  Then smash your face into the monitor until you start actually responding to my arguments instead of responding to half-sentences.

This next one wasn’t a misquote, thankfully, but . . .an apparent attempt at redefining the word racism.  Are you using Websters Dictionary for Liberals again?

now you surely don’t understand the meaning of the word racism
if you are discriminating and oppressing a specific group of people, you are a racist
yes the original definition means discrimination against a RACE , but now it’s the same thing ,if i oppress and mistreat people who have autism ,because they have autism , I’m a racist.

Racism - the prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races.

No amount of casuistry can bring your definition of racism in line with reality.  What you are talking about is probably bigotry.  Remember my paragraph from an earlier post?  I am prejudiced against bad ideas.

1- if i did , it was a mistake, ( that I’m not apologizing for)
2-it makes sense , perfect sense
3- let the frame of my sanity be decided by those who read this thread…in another words, it’s non of your business.

A mistake you are not apologizing for, completely thrown out the window with #2.  It was a mistake, you should apologize, and it doesn’t make “perfect sense”.  It makes no sense.  I look forward to hearing what an outsider will think of your sanity.  I think, more likely, they may fault your childish grasp of the english language.  I do hope you’re a young person.

fuck it, one more, since you felt it necessary to misunderstand the clarification from my finale:

CLARIFICATION: In the version that appears in The Weekly Standard paper edition, in the second paragraph, the Lancet 2006 figure is correct but it should have been noted, as I have here, that a slightly lower figure of 600,000 was attributed directly to war violence. All further references and comparisons, whether as paraphrased by me or as quoted in the IFHS study, are to the lower violence-only figure.

This clarified a previous portion of the article, which stated that the Lancet 2006 figure of 655,000 attributed directly to war violence was actually 600,000, and that 655,000 was the total.  THIS FIGURE IS STILL OFF BY A FACTOR OF AT LEAST 7.  The article is about how wrong the figure was, and the clarification did not indicate that the ACTUAL figures quoted by Lancet were correct, but that the representation of them in the article was correct.

The actual numbers are down around 90,000 total since 2003.  This includes iraqis who have been killed by suicide bombers and IEDs that missed american troops.  I witnessed 8 people being vaporized by a single IED in a tractor trailer, probably more than 50 suffered from lacerations as the glass in every car within 100 feet shattered inward.  They were innocent Iraqis, bystanders.  To put that in perspective, I spent 18 months in theatre, Iraq and Afghanistan, often ambushed, and still never killed the 8 people that the insurgents managed to wipe out in an instant.

I really am done speaking with you.  Your last post was almost a how-to on misquotation, and I’m just tired of fixing your mistakes.  I’ll find a more honest muslim to speak with.

Ciao.

 
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