Well, Noggin’ —the end might be near, or then again, it might not, right? do the Mormon’s use the Bible in addition to the book of Mormon? Or do they think it’s a perversion of God’s word? because I’ve always liked the verse that goes something like: no one knows the day or the hour, not even the sun, (that’s supposed to say “son”—I typed it wrong. but I think I’ll leave it.) but only Jehovah, who totally knows everything. I’ve also always liked the verse that says something like: sufficient unto the day are the evils thereof… so don’t go worrying about what you will eat or what you will drink or what you will wear… or how much oil you have in storage, or how many months of ‘comfort food’ and water you have stashed away… consider the lillies of the field…. they don’t worry about what they’re going to wear and still…. they look great! Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed as one of these… and the little birds of the air neither reap nor sow, but they are fed, because God feeds them…(here, for my purposes, I fill in the words… the earth, or the universe, or nature for the term God, because I find the universe to be much less vengeful and jealous and violent. You know, maybe the end is near. Maybe the ones who prepare will outlast the ones who don’t. The rest of us are going to have to ride out the end times like a surfer on a tsunami. Cowabunga!!! There is one more little antidote to fear mongering that I remember from somewhere… I think it is from a middle eastern poet. It might even be from Islam:
Look to this day for it is life—the very life of life.
In its brief course lie all the verities and realities of existence:
the bliss of growth—
the glory of action—
the splendor of beauty…
For yesterday is but a dream,
and tomorrow only a vision.
But today, well lived, makes every yesterday a dream of happiness
and every tomorrow a vision of hope.
Look well, therefore, to this day.
I love that. Just live this day. You can die a thousand different ways at any moment. Maybe sooner maybe later. But it doesn’t matter if the end is near or far. What matters is…. say it with me….. THIS DAY!
Was it John Lennon, or someone else, who said “life is what happens when you’re busy making other plans…..”
I think the human race should spend less time planning for armageddon and more time preventing it.
Preparedness is wise, but to capitalize on it this way is a bit over the top. If something terrible does happen, the leaders of the church are now equipped to step up and tsk prophetically “we told you so”.
That preparedness the Mormon church emphasizes has come in handy for some. I’ve met some people who claimed to have an increased testimony of the divinity of the LDS church because they adhered to the Mormon church’s council of having food storage/money saved and by chance that preparedness is what helped them get by.
One in particular was a Bishop in the Mormon church and was currently looking for a job somewhere for an accountant position. He apparently had been looking for 9 months, but luckily he had in his savings enough money to get him by for 9 months. He claimed that that event strengthened his faith in the Mormon church’s leaders in that they are inspired and “Called of God”. The Bishop followed the Mormon church’s council for being prepared for hard times and it clearly helped him out while looking for a job.
But if the people who claim to have their faith in the Mormon church strengthened because of incidents such as the one noted above and thought about how that incident hardly can support the idea that “their” leaders are “called of God”. I’m sure they would realize that it’s always a good idea to be prepared, within reason. Saving money/food is hardly a bad idea in general. I can’t see anything wrong with doing either or.
So the Mormon church admonishes their members to be prepared for hard times. It’s bound to happen that their council will eventually come in handy for someone who goes along with it. What’s next? “Wear your seat-belts/helmets, because they could save your life.” Of course they could save your life.
For people to claim that the Mormon church leaders are inspired/Called of God based on incidents such as this really fail to see that the Mormon church’s council is hardly “inspired”. Maybe Mormons could make themselves a case if the Mormon church had something prophetic happen that can actually be verified.
On a side note:
Noggin, you could provide a link to that Steve Benson writing?
Waner requested a link to the Steve Benson post, which I shall gladly provide here:
His thread is titled:
From the Millennial Meltdown Mormon Mailbag: Hear Ye, Oh, Hear Ye! Pack Up and Prepare, Thus Saith Boyd K. Packer . . .
Hey Noggin, if the Mormon Church was serious about the 2nd coming of their savior, they would start packing up and heading off to Independence Missouri, not building a mega mall for Jesus in down town SLC. In fact they Mormons would have to start hoofing it back to Missouri if the prophesy is to hold true. They’d better get walking! Jesus is going to be pissed when he returns and his chosen people are shopping at Victoria’s Secret in the mega mall instead of gathering around to hear his endless blabbering. :wink:
Hey—who’s to say Jesus isn’t at the mall right now, picking up some hot bra and panty sets for Mary Magdelene over at Victoria’s Sacred Secret.
good stuff there! I know—the stern warnings don’t seem to jive with the billion dollar revamp of downtown salt lake mall they just purchased. Very wierd. I have to confess that part of my latent cult mindset began to quiver ever so slightly in fear as I read Packer’s warnings to his family. I felt a pull on me. I paused for a brief moment to reflect on what I have left behind and it was uncomfortable. But only for a brief moment and then, after a quick review of the doctrine of polygamy, semitic DNA, Smith’s failed banking scheme in Kirtland that bankrupted hundreds of trusting saints, the limited geography theory for the hill cumorah, and other dead ringers I felt fine again. It was about a minute of self talk, you know… just a minute. But see, that is just another minute I had to waste correcting the neural brain pathways in my head. But if I don’t do it, I could end up a full fledged Mormon again—I just know it.
If any card carrying, polygamy supporting Mormon were to read that last paragraph I just wrote, they most likely would tsk knowingly to themselves something along the lines of
There’s proof that Noggin is being prompted by the Holy Ghost to come back to Mormonism
I think I am pretty bizarre for having to do the checklist like that. I absolutely hate it. I hate that unfounded cult fearmongering still creates fear in me. Did it create fear in you? Of course not. I envy you. I am angry that my parents allowed me to be so irreversably conditioned and were part of the process of pushing it all on to me from age 0. Those of you never involved in a cult, please just read this and be seriously thankful.
Hey Noggin’—I sympathize with the struggles you face, in your journey to freedom from WackyCultWorld. It is a long and difficult journey. I hope it is of some comfort to you that there are many here who are making the exact same journey. I am one of them. I prayed for years for the “Holy Ghost” to guide me. I prayed for understanding of the scriptures. I prayed for day to day guidance in all things, big and small. But my perceptions are shifting. I don’t pray so much anymore—and as I have said before, I really do miss it. But I don’t feel any connection to God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit. I tried for years. I heard “fake it ‘til you make it” and I faked it in earnest for a long time. No more. The holy spirit is no longer an other-worldly imaginary friend hovering in the ether for me. My holy spirit is right here in the rocks and trees and rivers. They are not going to whisper instructions in my ear, per se. But I can be aware and marvel at the magnificent patterns, and the organization and know that I am a part of it. Be ye not afraid Noggin’! We are all going to the same place. Back to the dust. Some sooner, some later but I’m pretty sure we all end up there, whether we have a 6-month supply of emergency rations laid up or not. Actually, I don’t even think it’s all that crazy preparing for disaster. Disasters do happen. Whatever happens, Noggin’—I wish you courage and strength. Follow you heart and your mind and your conscience. I left my religion because it did not sit right with my heart or my mind or my conscience. It was hard to do, but I don’t regret it one bit. I find that without being attatched to any particular religion, I am not cut off from other members of the human race that may belong to other sects. I consider all humans my brothers and sisters—not just the ones who go to my former church. And I have to say—it feels right. I want to say that again because for me, it’s very important. It feels right—in my heart and my mind and my conscience. So I wish you peace, Noggin’... and peace to those who love you.
Maybe Mitt Romney knows something we don’t. He was recently quoted as saying mormons believe the same things Xians do, the Jesus is going to return to Jerusalem when he comes back, no mention of Indy Mo? So maybe it’s new revelation? God has a right to change his mind you know… well, so says my mormon wife.
[quote author=“Montevideo”]Maybe Mitt Romney knows something we don’t. He was recently quoted as saying mormons believe the same things Xians do, the Jesus is going to return to Jerusalem when he comes back, no mention of Indy Mo? So maybe it’s new revelation? God has a right to change his mind you know… well, so says my mormon wife.
**eyes roll back into Noggin’s head**
Mormons believe similar things to mainstream christianity such as
~some sort of god exists, the gender is male, he is perfect with no exceptions
~there is also a Jesus figure who died and was resurrected for the benefit of humans everywhere and
~people do live after they die
~and they will be assigned a place to live according to how they viewed the Jesus figure and how much they loved the Jesus figure.
~they believe that good traits should be fostered and that bad traits should not be fostered. Ten commandments, The golden rule, Galations 5:22 fruits of the spirit should be sought after etc, etc.
After that it departs rather quickly into:
~God was once a man like us,
~but now he is an exhalted man in the form of a god who lives near a star called Kolob.
~this god has innumerous wives and
~he governs innumerous planets just like earth
~all men who are good enough on earth and whom serve jesus perfectly enough can one day also become a god with numerous wives and numerous planets to govern and perpetuate the Mormon cycle all over again on their own.
~Masonic signs and tokens, grips and passcodes were ripped off and corrupted from god’s original religion founded by Adam and Eve. Joseph Smith, through revelation from Jesus, restored these signs, tokens, grips and passcodes as key elements to salvation.
~God the Father had sex with the Virgin Mary, in every sense of the word… as in a god penis inserting into a human vagina, ejaculation, the whole 9 yards. This union created Jesus.
The man Joseph, the husband of Mary, did not, that we know of, have more than one wife, but Mary the wife of Joseph had another husband. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 11:268)
‘Now Remember from this time forth, and forever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost… I was in conversation with a certain learned professor upon this subject when I replied to this idea- “If the son was begotten by the Holy Ghost, it would be very dangerous to baptize and confirm females and give the Holy Ghost to them, lest he should beget [bastardized] children to be palmed off on the Elders by the people, bringing the Elders into great difficulties.”...But what do the people in Christendom, with the Bible in their hands, know but this subject? Comparatively Nothing.” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1:50-51)
also from Brigham Young:
“Jesus is the only person who had our heavenly father as the father of his body” Christ was begotten by an immortal father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal father.”(Mormon doctrine p.547) “The birth of the savior was as natural as the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood—was begotten of his father, as were of our fathers.” (Journal of Discourses vol.8 p.115)
“If none but gods will be permitted to multiply immortal children, it follows that each God must have one or more wives. God, the Father of our spirits, became the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. “(Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, page 158)
“I will say that I was naturally begotten; so was my father, and also my Savior Jesus Christ. According to the Scriptures, he is the first begotten of his father in the flesh, and there was nothing unnatural about it. (Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, 8:211)
Apostle Bruce R. McConkie explains, “And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, … (Mormon Doctrine, p. 742). Apostle, Bruce R. McConkie also states”...our Lord is the only Son of the Father in the flesh. Each of the words is to be understood literally. Only means only; Begotten means begotten; and Son means son. Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers.” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 546-47 ).
and you might want to read Mormon Gary Bowler try to explain how Mormons do not actually believe god had sex with Mary. You’ll note how he does not include any reference whatsoever to the above quotes I provided. Brother Bowler is not an apostle or prophet, is a church apologist and is paid by the church to shore up the many faltering Mormon testimonies being founded since the internet exploded en masse 10 years ago:
okay, continuing on:
~Jesus might have been married to Mary, and it is speculated that Jesus was also a polygamist. This is not widely held by most Mormons.
~Jesus is our older brother as is Satan. And YES, they believe that a great council of only the most elect righteous men who hold the priesthood will gather together at the 2nd coming in a valley in Jackson County Missouri. They will assemble themselves to hear Jesus and father Adam speak to them. Joseph Smith even named the place “AdamOndiAhman”, see:
and see also:
Joseph Smith declared [a] new understanding of Genesis and the location of Eden during a trip through Missouri in 1831. Historian Fawn Brodie commented:
“Shortly after his arrival Joseph rowed up the Grand River to Lyman Wight’s ferry to explore land on the north bank in Daviess County [Missouri]. On a high bluff overlooking the river someone in the party discovered the ruins of what seemed to be an altar and excitedly led the prophet to it. After examining it Joseph stood silent, his eyes sweeping over the prairie that rolled away beneath him….The glory of the scene made Joseph heady as with new wine. ‘This is the valley of God in which Adam blessed his children,’ he said, ‘and upon this very altar Adam himself offered up sacrifices to Jehovah….we will lay out a city which shall be called Adam-ondi-Ahman. Here Adam, the Ancient of Days, shall come to visit his people….’ “ (No Man Knows My History: the life of Joseph Smith, by Fawn Brodie, Random House, 1971, p. 211)
and also see:
“...Joseph the Prophet told me that the garden of Eden was in Jackson Co Missouri, & when Adam was driven out of the garden of Eden He went about 40 miles to the Place which [he] named Adam Ondi Ahman, & there built an altar of stone & offered sacrifice. That altar remains to this day. I saw it as Adam left it as did many others, & through all the revolutions of the world that altar had not been disturbed. Joseph also said that when the City of Enoch fled & was translated it was [where] the gulf of Mexico now is. It left that gulf a body of water.” (Waiting for World’s End: The Diaries of Wilford Woodruff, edited by Susan Staker, Signature Books, 1993, p. 305)
(Incidentally, Wilford Woodruff was later ordained a bonefide prophet of god for the Mormon masses)
uh, okay, where were we? Ahem. continuing on:
~Humans are saved mostly by their works not by grace.
~Grace plays a factor but a much lesser factor than the factor involved with how totally we are able to show the god of this planet that we love him and believe in his nutty Mormon story.
~if you sin, all of the former sins you committed and repented of shall return back onto your head
~the bible is not infallible and is full of translation errors
~the book of mormon is the most correct book on earth and a man can get nearer to god by abiding by its principles than by any other book
~prophets exist today as to a current running quorum of 12 apostles just like in the church the Jesus figure allegedly set up
~prophets receive revelation today, here and now. the heavens are not closed, god has a mouthpiece on earth right this second!
uh… sorry, got to stop at this point.
[quote author=“woofy”] I find that without being attatched to any particular religion, I am not cut off from other members of the human race that may belong to other sects. I consider all humans my brothers and sisters—not just the ones who go to my former church. And I have to say—it feels right. I want to say that again because for me, it’s very important. It feels right—in my heart and my mind and my conscience. So I wish you peace, Noggin’... and peace to those who love you.
Again Woofy spake beautifully and warmheartedly.
Congrats with your 200st post.
Hey Sander—I hadn’t realized I have reached the milestone of 200 posts! As others here have said—this forum is addictive. But damn educational, too. I’m glad your back here posting from time to time.
Noggin’—Oh those Mormons! Such imagination! You know, if you don’t actually believe it, it makes a fantastic story. If, however, you are taught that these stories are literally true… alas… what a mindf*ck! Sorry to use that kind of language, but that’s exactly what it is. And I take offense to any human beings (and here I include myself, too) being fed atrocious lies and told they are truth. Shame on lying liars who lie! Although, I think most of the tellers of these tales believe them in their hearts, because they were taught to from youth. They need to be forgiven, and they need to embrace whatever real truth is available to us. And I say three cheers for the internet for bringing vast amounts of information, as well as beautiful human minds together. I can’t help it. In spite of myself I do have hope for this world.
Woofy, now that you’re at 201 posts, it’s time you learned about the expenses of this site. For a mere $5 per hit—er, post, you can continue writing as much as you want for as long as you like. Seriously, I like reading about your thoughts. Those other forums are fine, but this is where you get the straight dope.
~but now he is an exhalted man in the form of a god who lives near a star called Kolob.
You must have heard this one a million times before, Noggin, but is it just a coincidence that the star’s name read backwards implicates a less than serious belief?
[quote author=“homunculus”]Woofy, now that you’re at 201 posts, it’s time you learned about the expenses of this site. For a mere $5 per hit—er, post,
This has the workings of a seriously good ponzi scheme/ multi level marketing ruse. We’d all get rich except that last guy who scratches his head and says..
hey wait a minute—but who’ll sign up after me??
Storm: Kolob = bolok. I hadn’t had that pointed out before. Bolloks is an english phrase right? Kind of means bullshit!? Very good observation. hmmm I wonder if Joseph Smith knew about that English phrase.
woofy: thank you so much for the empathy and kindness. I really enjoy your posts.
On another note:
I sat through the homecoming of a missionary yesterday. 2 years spent in the field! Now he is back amongst us. I listened to him. I sat and reflected on how far I am away from that missionary level of conviction. This missionary, now ready to enter the real world, bore solemn testimony of how he knew beyond any doubt that Joseph Smith saw god and restored Christ’s church in 1830. He did this at the very end of his speech. Actually, he did this right after he shared with the congregation how he and his companion gave a preisthood blessing to a young girl with a brain tumor and the next day the girl was completely healed—as in the x rays showed no sign of any tumor. Anyhow.
I was bothered by this. It was like reviewing my old self. What bothered me, mostly, was the change in his pitch and tenor, the decible level lowered, and then the quality of deliverance of this 2 minute testimony. Since he served his mission in South America, he explained that he’d be sharing this last portion of his speech in the SA native language. Not to worry, he explained, for each can understand what he was about to say through the language of the spirit. The spirit communicates through all languages.
Meaning: you won’t understand the words, but your heart will feel the validity of my message. You’ll just… know.
So I paused for the message. I speak spanish myself so I could understand what he was saying. I said the same words ten thousand times. Here is what bothered me. Througout his entire speech he was clear, proper decibel, non emotive. The very second he began to explain in spanish how he knew beyond any possible doubt that Mormonism is god’s only true church on earth things changed up dramatically…
1. his voice went very soft. The pitch raised slightly. I had to strain to hear the words
2. the room went very quiet so as to be able to hear the message
3. his voice quivered
4. the stress of the voice changed to extremely emotive and it appeared that he was about to cry… like he was talking on the verge of tears.
I wanted to stand up and correct him. I wanted to request that he say the same words in the same pitch, emotion, tenor and decibel level of the previous 15 minutes. I also wanted to explain that he had been successfully trained on how to get other people to “feel” something while he was speaking. I wanted to congratulate him on his success for he did it very well.
But I remained seated. I have a wife that needs me to behave in church. I heard a sniffle from the back of the room. He had gotten to someone. That someone was “feeling” the Truth of God.
Thus saith Noggin:
Behold. This is the very essence behind how Mormonism spreads.
It was interesting to me that you mention the essence of how Mormonism spreads. I just finished a book called ‘Made to Stick—why some ideas succeed and others fail’ It was kind of a business strategy book. Sometimes when I’m wandering through Barnes and Noble, I’ll just grab a book that catches my eye. Anyhow, it talked about how great ideas are communicated, and how they catch on and how they have to be presented in a certain way, or else they won’t “stick” They used examples like the “Jared” Subway sandwich campaign, and the story of Nordstrom Deptartment Store’s legendary customer service, where Nordstrom employees would do things like go out and warm up a customer’s car on a cold day, or gift-wrap packages for them even though they had been purchased in different stores, and a story about a teacher who demonstrated to her students what being the victim of prejudice feels like when she told them that blue-eyed people were inferior and made the students wear special collars and told them that they were not as smart as their brown-eyed counterparts. (the next day, she said that it was a mistake and that it was actually brown-eyed people who were inferior, so every one would learn that lesson on a visceral level…) The book mentioned that ideas that stick share certain common traits—they use conrete details, they employ the unexpected, they touch the emotions, a few other things…. but most importantly, they are communicated through STORIES. Really great stories. It turns out almost all humans love a good story—that we’re actually kind of hard-wired that way. Through experiments in a classroom at Stanford, it was discovered that statistics and numbers and data and graphs and tables and summaries and analyses… not matter how true or useful or important… are easily forgotten. But a good story? A good story sticks. And it sounds like, from what you’ve described above… your church not only has good stories…. it has good storytellers!
When I think about the Bible or the Book of Mormon, I think… wow… talk about stories that stick! Even though they are patently absurd, and insane and crazy… they are so powerful! Such is the might of a good story.