Jehovah's Witnesses

Total Posts:  1149
Joined  14-11-2005
28 April 2007 17:46

I spoke with two Jehovah's Witnesses today.  We had a lovely chat.  I informed them that I had already studied for awhile with their religion but had enthusiasticallyrejected their faith based exclusivity claim.

"why did you do that?", they asked rather friendly, through clouds of freshly placed aftershave.  Dang they looked sharp as tacks!  The females were very attractive.

I responded: 

There is no method by which I could verify your religion's claim that Jehovah's Witnesses were the only true religion.  How is it possible to say that one religion is True and the other one is false?

Then I asked them what my fate was for rejecting The Watchtower Society, bearing in mind that I have met the requirement to know what the basic doctrines and claims they make and am fully aware of the consequences of rejecting their claim.

"When you die, you will become a void in God's mind", they explained through a frown.

"Yes, that is what I was told", I agreed.  "I take comfort in that."

Four sets of JW eyebrows cocked up quizzically

"How could you possibly take comfort in that??"  They quizzed.

Because, you see, I am now doomed in several religions.  I rejected Mormonism and have gone so far as to openly blaspheme against all they hold sacred.  That means I am doomed to exist in what they call "outer darkness" for the eternities.  I have rejected several forms of evangelical christianity likewise.  I openly admit that I do not accept Jesus as any form of any savior personal or otherwise.  For that admission, I am doomed to burn in hell, according to them.  I rejected Islam and thus was told that I am doomed to wear a skin of molten lava for eternity and when my back burns up from the lava, my tormentors will change my skin out for fresh back skin so that I can eternally feel the flames of hell lick my back.  I rejected Eckankar and when I did that they told me I was going to have to start my reincarnation process all over from the very beginning… I was doomed to be plant fungus in the next life.

So you see, the more doom heaped upon me, the more comfortable I get.  For certainly you do not subscribe to any of these religions I just mentioned, do you???

"No, of course not."

"Then, there you have it… I have to ask you.. do you fear their prescribed sentance of doom for you??"

No. they said confidently.

"Now you know how I feel about not joining your religion or paying even the smallest amount of attention to your message.  It's all the same.  I am a decent man, with a good heart, and organized religion competes for my good heart up and down the blocks of this city… BUT.  the second I tell any one of them that I fully understand their doctrines and I absolutely reject them… that is the point of time when you all declare me to some version of hell."

Uh, sorry, gee look at the time we have to be going now… bye bye!

I watched them scuttle away quickly departing from me.  I hope they think about that.  Why are the female JW's always so attractive?


Total Posts:  1149
Joined  14-11-2005
28 April 2007 17:59

Jehovah’s Witnesses will not tell you this when they come to your door.  Only after a few intense bible study sessions will they divulge their core beliefs.

All religions except the JW’s are of Satan, and your local non JW Pastor or Priest is under the Devil’s control. (Truth..E. Life p. 132-137)

The Watchtower Society is the only source of truth on earth today, and all churches teach error and will be destroyed at Armageddon. ( 04/01/88 p.24; Truth… Eternal Life p.120,121).

No human goes to heaven but 144,000 Jehovah’s Witnesses, and your soul will be destroyed if you refuse to join their organization. (WatchTower Magazine dated 12/15/68 p.765-766; Truth…p.75-80).

After Jesus was buried in the tomb, Jehovah dissolved his body into gasses and it disappeared forever. (WatchTower Magazine dated 09/01/53 p. 518; Time…Hand p. 129).

Jesus rose invisibly in three days, so Jehovah had to “materialize” a fake body for him complete with fake nail prints so His disciples would believe it was really Jesus risen. (Make Sure..(52 ed.) p. 314)

Armageddon and Christ’s second coming were foretold to happen in 1874, 1914, 1925 and 1975 by this “nonprophet"organization. (WatchTower Magazine dated 10/1/1890p.1243;1/1892p.1354; Life Everl. (66 ed. p.29)

When Christ failed to show up in 1914 The Society claimed in later years that He had come—invisibly—of course, and all Jehovah’s Witnesses believe this today. (Light (30 ed). p. 194; Paradise on Earth..p.148)

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob etc. were to be transported back on earth as perfect humans in 1925. The Society built a palatial home for them BUT when the patriarchs failed to show up, the President of the Society moved in. (Millions..(20 ed) p. 89-90; WatchTower Magazine dated 03/15/37 p. 86).

JW’s light gets “brighter and brighter”, allowing for the many changes and “about faces” on their doctrines. Yesterday’s error is today’s “truth”. Often the “light” bounces back and forth from old to new views and back again! (WatchTower Magazine dated 06/01/52 p. 336; 08/01/65 p. 479; Rev..Climax..(88 ed) p. 273).

The Watchtower Society and its followers are all prophets of God today and the Governing Body is directed by angels from God. (WatchTower Magazine dated 01/15/59 p. 40-41; WT 4/1/72 p.200.

Soon Jehovah God will become a GRANDFATHER and Jesus will be promoted to “EVERLASTING FATHER”! (WatchTower Magazine dated 08/01/95 p. 13).

Top executives of the Watch Tower Society have admitted under oath that they forced their members to accept false prophecies or face disfellowshipping and be found worthy of death. (Test. of F. Franz, 1954, p. 112-114 Scottish Records Office).

Fred Franz, who for many years headed the Society, perjured himself under oath in Scotland in a court trial, by saying he could read Hebrew, and then failing a simple Hebrew test. (Pursuer’s Proof of Cross Exam. Nov. 24/54 p. 7 and p. 102).


Total Posts:  2084
Joined  15-11-2005
28 April 2007 20:02

Are there more than 144,000 JWs? What will happen to the overflow? Is there an auxiliary branch of Heaven, or something? A condo division? An RV park? A timeshare?

Also, I thought the 144,000 had to be virgins, unspoiled by women :?:

I found an interesting little page titled “Questions that Jehovah’s Witnesses do not like to be asked.”


I have no idea what a dyed-in-the-wool JW considers a zinger question, but here are a few that this Christian posed:

~ How do you know that there were any vacancies, if any, in the 144,000 class if Jesus offered this to first century Christians? How can the organization know the exact number of vacancies today without any records from the first century?

~ What kind of confidence can anyone have in an organization that rejected its founder and first two presidents for the first 63 years of its existence? This represents about 53% of the time they have existed!

~ Since the Watchtower organization claims “apostolic succession” who was it that “passed the torch of God’s Spirit” to C. T. Russel when he founded the organization? What was the name of this individual?

~ In Rev 22:12-13, Jesus Christ, the one who is “coming quickly”, says of himself, ” I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end”. In Rev 1:17-18, Jesus, the one who “became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever”, refers to himself as the first and the last. Rev 21:6, in speaking of God, says, “...I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end ...”. God is also referred to as the “first” and the “last” in Isa 44:6 and Isa 48:12. How can this be since by definition of these words there can only be one first and one last?


Ah, I give up. Especially since the author goes on and on about the JW’s errors, but then fails to ask why he himself constantly refers to the Bible as the Inspired Word of God (his emphasis), when it’s filled with immorality and atrocities committed by that God.

Total Posts:  1149
Joined  14-11-2005
28 April 2007 20:28

Those are some excellent questions, Mia.  I hope that this thread helps arm a few people with some poignant vantage points the next time they get a visit from the Witnesses.  Here is another vantage point I just wrote:

Jehovah’s Witnesses are very concerned about you. If you do not believe in their version of what the Bible says, you are doomed. In fact, you are, to them, as good as in a coma. They want you to wake up from that coma. They want you to wake up from that coma so badly that they publish a magazine that all of God’s faithful are required to read. The name of that magazine translated into many different languages is called


I find irony in the tables that they have turned. Just who is sleeping here? They view the rest of the non JW world as slumberers in a coma. Let’s review what they want the world to wake up to:

Wake up! to the potential needless death of your loved one!

How many needless deaths have there been in this cult? No one knows. I do know that even one needless death is enough already. Let alone hundreds.

The Jehovah’s Witnesses urges its members to refuse to accept blood transfusions and to not allow them to be given to their children. They are to let them die. They want all citizens of this world to Awake! to glorious needless death! This zeal for needless death is based upon four passages in the Bible which they interpret as prohibiting the consuming of blood:

1. Genesis 9:4 “But flesh (meat) with…blood…ye shall not eat”
2. Leviticus 17:12-14 “...No soul of you shall eat blood…whosoever eateth it shall be cut off”
3. Acts 15:29 “That ye abstain…from blood…”
4. Acts 21:25 “...Gentiles…keep themselves from things offered to idols and from blood…”

The Jehovah’s Witnesses once interpreted “eating” of blood in its most general form to include accepting “transfusion of whole blood, packed [red blood cells] RBCs, and plasma, as well as [white blood cells] WBC and platelet administration.”

Jehovah’s Witnesses are also urged to “discontinue their chemotherapy treatments when platelet transfusions are needed.”

Recently, last year in fact, several heated discussions spawned by the loss of several prominant Witnesses over past decades to this rubbish rebuke of blood transfusion has caused quite a bloody mess in the JW community. This just in:

**News flash**

The 2006-AUG issue of Awake! magazine contained an article on the value of blood, with a sidebar on hemoglobin-based oxygen carriers [HBOC]. The article states, in part, that Jehovah’s Witnesses:

“...reject all transfusions involving whole blood or the four primary blood components - read cells, plasma, white cells, and platelets. As for the various fractions derived from those components - and products that contain such fractions - the Bible does not comment on these. Therefore, each Witness makes his own personal decision on such matters.”

The sidebar states:

“Regarding this [HBOC] and similar products, then, Christians face a very serious decision. They must carefully and prayerfully meditate on Bible principles concerning the sacredness of blood. With a keen desire to maintain a good relationship with Jehovah, each must be guided by his Bible-trained conscience.”

While this is a welcome improvement, I have to point out here that this sudden quasi-reversal of doctrine now qualifies the Watch Tower Society as a potential litigant in a class action lawsuit for wrongful death impingement.

Recall how the United States government locked Dr. Kevorkian away for lesser crimes. Kevorkian aided the suffering by offering them self assisted suicide to end their pain and suffering. These deaths were willed by the patient. What the Jehovah’s Witnesses have done is more heinous than Dr. Jack Kevorkian because each dead Jehovah’s Witness duly trusted the doctrines extoled to them by their leaders as absolute impenetable truth. They died needlessly. Theirs was a death under a distortion-based threat. They trusted that there was no other way out of their predicament but through the doors of death. It was death or suffer the wrath of god in hell for trying to alter their course of health via a blood transfusion. Kevorkian uttered no threat. Kevorkian uttered no existential promise or warning. Yet Dr. Kevorkian is locked up today for responding to the terminally ill sufferer’s request.

Will we do nothing to this morally bankrupt and evil organization called Jehovah’s Witnesses? Will they go on untouched because they invoke a special signature authority from a god? If so, I move that Dr. Jack Kevorkian file an appeal IMMEDIATELY on the grounds that it was his religion of ethics that required him to act and assist in those suicide.

If Kevorkian remains in prison even one day after a judge reviews such an appeal… we are in the midst of an acute melt down towards societal insanity dressed up fancifully in nothing less than The Emporer’s New Clothes…

but no…

AWAKE! all you heathen NON Jehovah’s Witnesses… WAKE UP! to our message that will shake you out of your slumbering coma of death—- (and subsequently into ours)

Well, I have a message for the Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is every one of YOU who needs to wake up…



Total Posts:  2084
Joined  15-11-2005
28 April 2007 20:56

Good point about the lawsuits, due to backpedaling of doctrine.

I wonder, in general, if the death of a child would be more or less likely to cause the parents in such cases to question their faith, in the years that follow? Especially when it may be a near certainty that the child died due to the refusal of blood. I imagine that nothing approaching a poll has ever been done addressing that question, but would love to see this issue make it to court.

Total Posts:  1149
Joined  14-11-2005
28 April 2007 21:01

[quote author=“Mia”]Good point about the lawsuits, due to backpedaling of doctrine.

If anyone familiar with case law or Tort law could chime in…

I wonder, in general, if the death of a child would be more or less likely to cause the parents in such cases to question their faith, in the years that follow? Especially when it may be a near certainty that the child died due to the refusal of blood. I imagine that nothing approaching a poll has ever been done addressing that question, but would love to see this issue make it to court.

Here is An EX Jehovah’s Witnesses website:


At the top of this website you can click a link to an insider story that includes a heart rending account of the willed and intended death of their baby girl.  Granted, there is bias in this account since those telling the story are EX JW.  This experience led them to abandon JW, but sadly, it also led them to embrace the more widely accepted cult of Christianity.

Some noteworthy items from their story:

If you are a devout JW, you will carry a card on your person at all times that reads:


As a parent, you are to have your children carry this card on them at all times:


I find this irrevocably disgusting.

here is a sample of the older version of NO Transfusion cards:


And a more current one:


Again, I say… irrevocably disgusting.


Total Posts:  1149
Joined  14-11-2005
28 April 2007 21:55

The more I dig, the worse it gets:

Organ transplants:
In 1967, [Jehovah’s Witnesses] said that organ transplants are a form of cannibalism and are to be shunned.  They reversed this decision in 1980 and made transplants a matter of personal conscience. Unfortunately, an unknown number of Jehovah’s Witnesses had died between 1967 and 1980 because they had refused available transplants.

More fuel to the class action lawsuit bonfires.  If you had a loved one who died becuase they were loyal to JW doctrine of NO ORGAN TRANSPLANTING, wouldn’t you be at least kind of angry at this 1980 decision???

How is this not reckless irresponsible mayhem inflicting itself upon the unsuspecting (trusting) minds born into this cult?

and here is more:

Bone marrow transplants:In 1963, they considered that any fraction of blood was a nutrient and not to be used in medical treatment.  In 1978, they reversed this decision for certain blood fractions used for the treatment of hemophiliacs. In 1984, they declared that accepting a bone marrow transplant was up to the individual conscience.

same argument applies.  I am more than just a little bothered.


Total Posts:  200
Joined  24-01-2007
28 April 2007 22:25

[quote author=“Noggin”]Why are the female JW’s always so attractive?

They are Jehovah’s Mistresses. :D

Nice story anyway!

Never had any interaction with these people, although I have occasionally been reading WakeUp. 

In Norway, JWs temporarily lose child custody if their children need blood as far as I remember.

Total Posts:  2084
Joined  15-11-2005
28 April 2007 22:36

Reflecting on your obvious anger over this (which I share), I’m puzzled at the recollection of not being particularly angered by other people’s religious beliefs, back when I was a believer. I’m plenty outraged by them now, but why not then, I wonder?. . .  I can only guess it had something to do with them giving me an implied pass on own goofy beliefs? If they believe in a form of afterlife, then the more of us who believe that, the more likely it’s probably true, right?

What I’d give to have all those ill-spent braincells back. What a dork.

What aspect of their visit most irked you, Nogs? Was it the hasty retreat once you had nailed them on the Hell Threat? I would guess there’s also still more than a little lingering resentment over the years spent proselytizing. You see your former self in those JWs.

Total Posts:  1149
Joined  14-11-2005
29 April 2007 06:17

[quote author=“Mia”]Reflecting on your obvious anger over this (which I share), I’m puzzled at the recollection of not being particularly angered by other people’s religious beliefs, back when I was a believer. I’m plenty outraged by them now, but why not then, I wonder?. . .  I can only guess it had something to do with them giving me an implied pass on own goofy beliefs? If they believe in a form of afterlife, then the more of us who believe that, the more likely it’s probably true, right?

Probably so.  I think that played a big part for me too in a way.  I am thinking that for me at the time, I really could not fathom a world without an afterlife and a god in it.  Therefore, since they too believed in the concept but in a twisted sort of way (according to me), and JW’s were dying because of the ban on blood transfusions… then that is how Satan works.  He is deceiving them big time… so whew, I am glad I am in the really for reals true church and not that devil cult church.

Outrage at god?  I couldn’t.  It was a reinforcing moment to reflect on how deceived JW’s were.  Satan, in my staunch little theist brain, was very real (I had had experiences I had deemed to be satanic while I was growing up).  His power over the minds of the JW was just another manifestation of his power to deceive and ensnare.  Again, wash over me with a thousand Thank-You-Jesus es.

But lately, I am terribly bothered by it all moreso than I was as a comatose theist.  Life without god sharpens the point made by the needless deaths.  They are now utterly reckless.  As a Mormon, I could still say that God, according to Mormonism, would deal justly with the dead lack of blood transfusion JW.  The Mormon god is painted very kind that way.  So problem solved, no big deal.  Someone on “the other side” was preaching the Mormon gospel to that dead JW who would no doubt accept the message and be ushered into heaven as soon as someone on earth went to the temple with that JW’s name and birthdate in hand and got necro-baptized for him.

What aspect of their visit most irked you, Nogs? Was it the hasty retreat once you had nailed them on the Hell Threat? I would guess there’s also still more than a little lingering resentment over the years spent proselytizing. You see your former self in those JWs.

Oh I don’t know, it was a quick visit.  Of course I saw glimmers of myself there.  That goes without saying.  Maybe it was a little of how I picked up on their conviction in their most minute mannerisms.  In JW speak, if you run across an apostate or one who claims, like I have and did to them, to have studied their doctrine and reject it.. that person in their mind is nothing more than a goat.  They literally refer to that person as a goat.  As in Jesus followers= sheep, and those who don’t= goats.

So I could see THEIR smugness entwined in their demeanor surface almost palpably as soon as I disclosed to them that I rejected their doctrines.  As in:

This guy is such a goat

It was like they got off on being smug about being in the presence of a goat.  They left me with a look of pity on their faces.  Many Jehovah’s Witnesses loath pioneering (going door to door).  Some get off on it, but more than a few really just go through the motions not wanting much more than to put healthy looking respectable hours down on their time sheet.  I can’t tell if these were the former or the latter.  The more hardcore usually want to debate and show you where you are wrong.  These wanted nothing of the sort.  I don’t think my line of brief argumentation was all that convincing to them.  I mean, I’d love to think I Nogginized them even slightly but knowing the cult mindset… it takes much more than that exchange to penetrate.  I might have been in the presence of a few less than committed to pioneering JW’s.. but all the same 100% brainwashed (to account for the chalky smugness I felt radiating from them).

Incidentally, Mia… I have meant to ask you if you ever did any follow up Borders- confront-a-theist-w/-Dawkins experiences?  I had fun reading that.

~The Nogginizer

Total Posts:  305
Joined  03-11-2006
29 April 2007 17:37


*raising my hand… ooh, ooh, I know I know!*

Get this:  The 144,000 are the ANNOINTED, super-special Jehovah’s Witnesses that get to go to the ACTUAL HEAVEN IN THE SKY, as “spirit beings” to rule with Jehovah and Jesus over the PARADISE EARTH (which will be, in effect, the condo/RV/timeshare lesser version of heaven, but still real nice…)  The righteous will inherit the EARTH and RESIDE FOREVER UPON IT!  So great!  Hope for their sakes it’s true. 

    When I was leaving the Catholic church, I thought maybe I just didn’t know the Bible well enough, and that was why my religion wasn’t working for me.  So I let those very courteous and attractive Witnesses right in my door and said—let me have it.  I want to know.  It so happened that on the day they came to my door, my best friend who lived across the street saw them standing there ringing the bell, briefcases in hand… She called me while we were sitting at the table and said ‘do you need an excuse to get rid of the Witnesses?’’  And I said, nope, I let them in and I’m going to listen to what they have to say. 

THAT WAS IN 1991!  AAAAaaaarrrgggghhhh!!!!  I just formally left my study about 9 months ago. 

    To be honest, I really don’t regret it.  I gave Catholicism a fair trial, I gave the Jehovah’s Witnesses a fair trial.  I really and truly did.  To the very best of my ability.  And I feel like I’ve given religion a fair trial.  I’m 43 for god’s sake!  Time to fish or cut bait. 
    I never did get baptized, and I never did bring my children to any meetings or studies.  Because, deep down in my heart, I never did believe it.  I always marveled that the Holy Spirit didn’t one day finally come upon me and make the meaning of the scriptures crystal clear. 
    I guess I’ve traded the Holy Spirit for the human spirit.  And life everlasting for life temporary… with a birth at the beginning and a death at the end.  Back to the dust from which I came…. just like the Bible says!  grin 
    I still walk in the valley every week with my Jehovah’s Witness friend (whom, Noggin’, I must tell you is absolutely, strikingly beautiful).  We have found a peace and a common ground.  We both believe that life on this planet is a beautiful gift, and that the best way to live is to do our best to care for the Earth and the creatures who inhabit it.  That is as far as my ‘theology’ goes.  Hers has alot more to it. Sometimes I joke with her that when she’s off living forever on the paradise Earth, she might pass me someday when I’m part of a daisy or a tree or a fish in the stream.  She always says don’t say that!  And she really means it.  She is going to miss me when she is living forever on the paradise earth.  I don’t think I’ll miss her, as I’ll be dead and all, but I hope she will be happy.  She really is a beautiful person.

Total Posts:  1149
Joined  14-11-2005
30 April 2007 03:29

woofy—cue the twilight music already!! wink

Oh. My. Gosh.

So this is very encouraging.  You mean, you openly reject the Watchtower Society and she still goes and hangs with you?  Can you do me a favor?  Ask her if you are considered a goat.  I was told that I was a goat for rejecting the doctrines of the Jehovah’s Witnesses.  It’s such a pejorative descriptor to me.  Maybe I am entangled in a group of high minded high fallootin witnesses—and yours are more progressive and down to earth.  But to call a man a goat because he won’t believe what you do is highly offensive.  They teach their kids this!

I have to tell you woofy… my story about going to the JW meetings.  You said you have never been?  Oh but you might try it.  I had to go—After getting out of my Mormon cult I wanted to compare what I had known for decades to another full monty cult experience.. so I studied for a bit and my first meeting at the Hall was an absolute eye opener. 

(Incidentally, I also delved half way deeply into the Scientologists meeting halls but that is another story)

I walked into the Kingdom Hall with an open mind just absorbing it in, not too skeptical you know I tried to attend with a similar mindset to when I was full tilt Mormon.  I sat down, and as a new face was instantly greeted by beautiful people who were extremely interested in me… good morning, how are you, what’s your name, my name is X, are you from around here oh that is nice, I like your tie, you’re just investigating? well, Welcome!  We hope you find what you are looking for.

This was very nice.  I have been to several Mormon churches throughout the United States and never have I ever felt so welcome than that first day at the kingdom hall.  They must do seminars or something on the technique.

So I sit down next to my new best friends.  I look around and see normal families with normal looking kids except for these youngsters are extremely well behaved.

The service went fine and I noted the same classic churchy set up.  Nice conservative music to set the mood (organ music), low calm authoritative voice, reassuring tones, pleading prayers.  Anyhow, long story short, I recall “feeling” the same sweeping peace flood over me just as it had done countless times before in Mormonism.  As the feeling picked up into its crescendo, I started to chuckle this low decibel kind of crazy person chuckle.  Have you ever been around insane people?  Some of them do that so when the crazy person chuckle came out of me it struck me as so oddball funny that a panic arose in my chest.  I had to contain it or else I’d snowball into a roaring red faced gut buster laugh for sure.  I got ahold of myself just in time and my new best friends looked at me sideways as if to ask Are You Okay?  And I was okay, but ... you know… I wasn’t.  I was right in the middle of a revelation.  Well, of course, as you might know, trying to stifle crazy person laughter has a way of making things worse but I succeeded.  I focused on the crowd around me.  What was happening here?  We were all assuaging ourselves… allowing feelings to steer us in one particular direction, the Jehovah’s Witness direction.

Why did it strike me as funny?  Because as I looked around the room, me the outsider, taking copious mental notes on just what was going on here and saw about 200 souls being completely duped and deluded by emotions into thinking their special Witness group actually was the only true religion on the planet.  And it was so odd to me.  Because Mormons were supposed to be the only ones on the planet with god’s approved truth for saving souls!!  Yet here I was, feeling the same feeling I did in the Mormon chapels.  What? 

Yes, this was the exact feeling that convinced me I should leave my college studies for 2 years and go to Spain and proselyte 16 to 18 hours a day every day for the Mormon Gospel.  This was the same feeling that assured me Mormonism was The Truth(tm).  ....Gah!!

I did not expect this but I should have expected it..  This emotion was the only vehicle that created the Jehovah’s Witnesses move to strike out at the world and call the entire world to repentance.  This feeling inside me right now sitting here was the force that guided hundreds of them each weekend to leave their homes and go pull weeds all saturday morning down at the Hall.  This was the force that gets them out their doorway and into yours with their bright shiny faces and leather satchels at their sides… ready to tell you how wrong you are about god. 

What was this feeling.  It could not be “god”. Yet that is exactly what we all claim(ed) it is.

The oddity galvanized my hunch that this is how religion survives.  It was so pointless.  When did religion morph into this struggle for superiority, I asked myself.  What is the big deal?  Why not just live a good and decent life.  After all is said and done, isn’t the most basic tenet of religious faith borne out of our need to feel secure in our minds that we have purpose here, and that things are going to be allright after we die?

Why go out and convert every last creature?

In an instant, I felt an unwelcomed superiority take birth.  I did not want to feel superior to anyone but I felt it.  I also felt enlightened.  Have you ever taken a final exam where you are so prepared there are no difficult answers anywhere on it?  It felt like that.  It felt really good.  I felt confident that religion was invented and I could stand on my own two feet assured I was not making a mistake by leaving it.

I have never looked back. 


Total Posts:  305
Joined  03-11-2006
30 April 2007 04:09

Hey Noggin’
    To the Witnesses I think I am considered a ‘goat’, which probably should offend me, except that I happen to think goats are pleasant little creatures who provide delicious, healthy milk and tasty cheese and what’s not to like?  My daughter went to a summer camp where there was a little pet goat named “Silver” and it looked right into my eyes and called me “maaa!”  I fell in love with that sweet little goat!
    I guess to a Muslim I’m an infidel, to a Jew I’m a gentile?  do they still say that?  to a Fundamentalist Christian I suppose I would be considered a lost soul.  None of these terms offends me much, because none of these terms has meaning to me.  Now, if they said I suck at math, that would hurt.  Because, alas, it would be true. 
    I really do think that it’s pretty remarkable that I have rejected my friend’s church and we can still be friends.  I think it really took courage for her, because they really do believe that people who reject their church are pretty much misled by Satan.  I think part of her really can’t believe that I don’t believe as she does.  I am partly to blame for that.  For years of study, I suspended my disbelief thinking that I just didn’t understand.  I have now arrived I think in the same place as you, Noggin’.  I really do believe that religions are the constructs of human beings.  I haven’t come to a conclusion yet as to whether they’ve caused more harm than good, but I’m starting to suspect that the world would be better off without them.  I no longer fear the disapproval of God or the torments of hell.  I just want to live to good purpose. What that amounts to for me is just trying to be a loving human being.  Trying to learn and improve myself.  Trying to be a good “steward” of the earth.  I don’t think my philosophy contradicts any one’s religion.  It may not go far enough in their eyes, but it’s far enough for me.  Noggin’, I hope that at the end of your anger, you will find peace.  You deserve it.  We all do.

Total Posts:  716
Joined  10-03-2007
30 April 2007 04:14


[ Edited: 02 May 2007 00:28 by ]
Total Posts:  1149
Joined  14-11-2005
30 April 2007 04:53


I know why she still hangs with you.  It’s cuz you are so damn personable and truly exude warmth and kindness.  How could she not want to be around you wink  I too hope I find peace at the end of my anger.  It comes and goes in fits and starts.  I work on it.

[quote author=“MDBeach”]The closest thing I can come up with in tort is intentional infliction of emotional distress.  This tort has different names in different jurisdictions.

Thanks for the legal insights in your response MD.  I googled

jehovah’s witnesses wrongful death lawsuit

and found a few hits, one of interest is this one last month:

CALGARY, Alberta (AP)—A grieving father said he would continue his crusade against Jehovah’s Witnesses and their prohibition against blood transfusions after a court decision partially cleared the way for an $800,000 wrongful death lawsuit.

Lawrence Hughes filed the claim on behalf of his 17-year-old daughter, Bethany, who died from acute myeloid leukemia in 2002. She repeatedly refused conventional treatment for her leukemia because of her religious beliefs.

Hughes, as executor of her estate, blames the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, the religious order that governs the faith, for influencing his daughter to believe that the Bible forbids blood transfusions.

“This is a great day for justice. This is a great day for children,” Hughes told a news conference Tuesday after a judge ruled he could proceed with part of his case.

“The court is saying that a religious sect or cult can be held responsible for the injury they inflict on others, whether it relates to deliberately giving out misleading medical information or using institutional coercion which results in the death of a child,” Hughes said.

This is really great news… looks promising, right?  Perhaps precedence is on its way???  well… not really…

Though Hughes cannot proceed with his claim against the Watch Tower Society, he can move head with a suit against two lawyers, Shane Heath Brady and David Miles Gnam, who acted for both Bethany and her mother, Arliss, when they fought the transfusions in court and also represent the society. Both lawyers are Jehovah’s Witnesses.

I am confused as to why the WTS cannot be sued.  Religious freedoms?  Are religions really allowed to essentially kill their members and the rest of the world must die horrifically painful cancer deaths without the option of self inflicted suicide assistance?

No matter what you try, it will be an almost impossible battle because the members have actually sought out the perpetrators.

MDBeach, what if an attorney can show that a child luekemia patient was born into the cult and is under the (errant) parental supervision?  This is happening.  I have read stories where the State steps in to forbid the JW parents from interfering with the child’s life.  And there are reall accounts of JW’s stealing the child from the hospital to “protect” her from the evil doctors. 

I know, I know, there are a hundred circumstances.

You might have a better shot if you can set up the relationship between the church and the member as having some higher duty, like a fiduciary or something of that nature.

How can a religion be any kind of fiduciary though? 

fiduciary: 1. Law. a person to whom property or power is entrusted for the benefit of another. 

Mental property sure, the religion owns what they think and how they view the world.  Is that what you mean? JW’s also tithe but that is the inverse of what I would expect.  They aren’t dependent on the religion for financial sustainment the church is dependent on the member’s contribution.

You also have to have a member that has actually been affected and is willing to fight back against his own church, containing most likely, his own family.

Tough, but I gather it is happening!  Consider part member families where, say, the father is against the JW and the mother is still active.  Can you imagine your child dying because your wife insisted “no transfusions”.  Actually, I can’t.  I can’t imagine such a marriage surviving.  So maybe that is a lame example.  That scenario is so unlikely it kind of hammers down how insane the Witnesses really are.

The right to religious freedom would be under attack, hypothetically, in any case brought of this nature.  It would be best to consider a fringe cult, rather than a majority type class.

I did not find any won wrongful death lawsuits in my 10 minutes of searching (doesn’t mean they don’t exist).  But I have to feel like they don’t exist because if they did, there would be precedence paving the path for complete doctrine reversal in the Watchtower cult… don’t you think?

I feel sort of hopeless right now.  You mean we can form a religion with faith tenets comprised of how snorting cocaine is the only way its members can gain entrance to heaven and the government cannot touch us?

It’s illegal to snort cocaine, (but nobody hardly dies from the act).  The goevrnment would surely shut us down.  But isn’t it also illegal to kill your children?  What gives??????????????

Thanks for your input, MDBeach.


Total Posts:  716
Joined  10-03-2007
30 April 2007 06:15