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#85- Is this the End of Europe?  A Conversation with Douglas Murray

 
Nhoj Morley
 
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Nhoj Morley
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07 July 2017 11:11
 

In this episode of the Waking Up podcast, Sam Harris speaks with Douglas Murray about his book The Strange Death of Europe: Immigration, Identity, Islam.

#85- Is this the End of Europe?  A Conversation with Douglas Murray

This thread is for listeners’ comments.

 
Twissel
 
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Twissel
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07 July 2017 11:23
 

I’m dreading this…

 
 
markd
 
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markd
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07 July 2017 14:15
 

Well, for goodness sakes why? Douglas Murray is well-informed, articulate and an interesting conversationalist. If it’s his views on Islam that you “dread” then all the more the reason to listen. How else is progress possible if we start with the a priori assumption that what he and Sam will say might be dreadful. Let us discuss controversial subjects in the spirit of respect and comity. Moral progress needs to be examined through reason and pathos. If you dread it for some other reason, well, forget all that stuff I wrote… grin

 
Indarctos
 
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07 July 2017 17:23
 

Sam I don’t know if you ever read this comments, anyhow, here are some thoughts.

Talking about immigrants, which are in reality REFUGIES without mentioning the the continuous war that they’ve been subjected to, it’s just ridiculous. And related to this, you said that “the left does not mind importing all these immigrants into Europe”, Its not the left my dear, it’s the wars that the US England, France, Spain… had forged in their territory.  Also leading to the creation of terrorist groups and posterior support with weapons (Most victims of terrorism are muslims FYI, so your coment about “moderate muslims” is kind of telling)…. I’m surprised that in the US no one feels a little responsibility. What is our alternative to take the refugies into our society? Build a wall?

Talking about muslims as if all were the same its also shameful, and I’m not sure what you want to achieve with that. Are you a Christian? Or should we attribute some Christians behavior to you (i.e. pedophilia)?

Also you are trying to make the point that this refugee crisis is the death of Europe but you don’t see the elephant in the room, which is the Economical terrorism that the European union is subjected to. And by the way the US as well, but there you never had decent social services, so you can’t lose them.

I’m sorry to see how your podcast is starting to sound like shameful propaganda, and your funny introduction kind of proves it,
too bad you never question yourself…

Best wishes

PD; You are the most radical liberal in his contact list ROLFL

 

 
Twissel
 
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07 July 2017 21:19
 

Both Harris and Murray contradict themselves quite frequently in this podcast: on the one hand, they despair about how Europe gives up its soul and at the same time have to admit how level-headed it reacts to acts of terrorism.
And they say that integration/multiculturalism doesn’t work but at the same time claim that Islam is taking over Christianity: how is that possible of the two groups don’t mix?

The recent round of elections also show that the political drift to the right has been halted. Refugee numbers are way, way down.

But most importantly, as always, they completely ignore that Europe had no choice but to preliminarily accept all refugees to check the possibility of asylum UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW. Countries that didn’t do this (like many Eastern European ones) have violated the convention on refugees.
Countries who followed the law then often had the problem that there was no place to send people denied asylum back: their own countries wouldn’t take them.

 
 
Brick Bungalow
 
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07 July 2017 22:11
 

I find this extremely frustrating. There are clearly some serious and urgent issues presented here but they are marginalized by the broad brush packaging. Murray is sabotages his own agenda by picking unnecessary fights and speaking in generalities when better, more specific facts are available. He panders to groups that will bite down on any red meat they see and uses their momentum to amplify his voice but in so doing sacrifices the attention of people who can see multiple sides of an issue. Sadly he seems to have Sam’s ear… or perhaps Sam has simply talked himself into a similar tack on his own.

[ Edited: 07 July 2017 22:37 by Brick Bungalow]
 
Charles Ponzi
 
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08 July 2017 02:16
 

Why is Barbara Lerner Spectre not in jail for inciting genocide of Indigenous Europeans?  Genocide is a crime.

American activist Barbara Lerner Spectre calls for destruction of European ethnic societies https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ERmOpZrKtw

Ingrid Carlqvist - Scandal in Sweden When Ingrid Questions the Unquestionable https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHvfBtwspPM

Adolf Hitler and Barbara Specter - Multiculturalists https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwYEKg1gNBc?

 
Charles Ponzi
 
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08 July 2017 02:19
 

Our ancestors struggled and fought for our good “luck”.  It is our duty to pass on this good luck to our children and grandchildren.  Western Civilisation did not occur by itself or through good luck.  The powerful elite give us nothing unless we actively fight for it.

We cannot help others if we do not take care of ourselves first.

We can help the human condition on this planet by ending the Federal Reserve cabal.  Get rid of the central bankers who are behind the constant wars and destruction of the environment.

Fake money=fake policitians, fake news, fake wars, fake history, fake science, fake genders, fake global warming….

End the Federal Reserve.

[ Edited: 08 July 2017 02:22 by Charles Ponzi]
 
Rieux
 
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08 July 2017 05:39
 
Indarctos - 07 July 2017 05:23 PM

Talking about immigrants, which are in reality REFUGIES without mentioning the the continuous war that they’ve been subjected to, it’s just ridiculous.

The majority of people entering Europe from outside of its borders as part of this crisis are not refugees but economic migrants who have no asylum claim. This is a fact which even EU senior officials like Frans Timmermans have accepted and endorsed, and this is basis for the conversation Sam and Douglas are having.

Indarctos - 07 July 2017 05:23 PM

And related to this, you said that “the left does not mind importing all these immigrants into Europe”, Its not the left my dear, it’s the wars that the US England, France, Spain… had forged in their territory.

The Syrian civil war was not started or caused by “wars forged” on Syrian territory by those countries. Nor have foreign wars been responsible for the large numbers of people entering Europe from Pakistan, Eritrea, Nigeria, or Gambia etc.

Indarctos - 07 July 2017 05:23 PM

Also leading to the creation of terrorist groups and posterior support with weapons (Most victims of terrorism are muslims FYI, so your coment about “moderate muslims” is kind of telling)…. I’m surprised that in the US no one feels a little responsibility.

Islamist groups have existed since the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in 1924, their ideology has spread and morphed and altered through various types of fundamentalist Islam (Salafism, Wahhabism etc.) and developed the offshoot of Jihadism through political and religious philosophy developed within the Islamic world and related to the Islamic World. The claim that the West is reponsible for the creation of these groups is West-centric and solipsistic. The Islamic world is capable of producing its own evil as well as its own good, just like any other part of the world.

Indarctos - 07 July 2017 05:23 PM

What is our alternative to take the refugies into our society? Build a wall?

It is right for countries to do what they can to help refugees in immediate need. There are a number of related problems, however. The first problem is that the genuine refugees entering Europe at the moment are not all from Syria, but from other parts of the world too, and even the number of genuine refugees in the entire world far exceeds what Europe can cope with. This is why it is better for countries in the immediate vicinity to take on the great majority of refugees and then the numbers dissipate outward from there, so that they can more easily return to their country when it becomes safe again.

The second problem is that, as I said earlier, the majority of people entering Europe are not genuine refugees but are economic migrants (yes, often coming from extremely poor and difficult lives, but nevertheless with no more right to ignore national borders than anybody else in the world). If these people aren’t differentiated from the genuine refugees, then those who are genuinely desperate for asylum from war are going to be losing out to other people. At the moment there is a problem of people disposing of their passports and claiming to be from Syria so that they get preferential treatment.

The third problem, and obviously the largest problem, is that if nothing sensible is figured out about this, then Europe is going to continue to take in tens of thousands of people every week forever, from an infinite well of people with a far, far higher birthrate than that of Europe. Anybody can see that this is going to result in Europe being unable to help refugees ever again because the entire continent will be overcrowded with desperate people from the third world. Its infrastructure will collapse and it will be unable to help itself let alone any refugees.

Indarctos - 07 July 2017 05:23 PM

Talking about muslims as if all were the same its also shameful, and I’m not sure what you want to achieve with that. Are you a Christian? Or should we attribute some Christians behavior to you (i.e. pedophilia)?

You didn’t give any examples of them doing this. I can dig up examples of them saying the exact opposite if you’re interested.

 
Indarctos
 
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08 July 2017 09:00
 

The majority of people entering Europe from outside of its borders as part of this crisis are not refugees but economic migrants who have no asylum claim. This is a fact which even EU senior officials like Frans Timmermans have accepted and endorsed, and this is basis for the conversation Sam and Douglas are having.

      This is not true, you can check it yourself, Syria Afghanistan and Iraq are the country of origin of most refugees

The Syrian civil war was not started or caused by “wars forged” on Syrian territory by those countries. Nor have foreign wars been responsible for the large numbers of people entering Europe from Pakistan, Eritrea, Nigeria, or Gambia etc.

      This is true, the war in Syria was probably not started by outsiders. But what’s the situation now? US and russian attacks, ISIS etc..

Islamist groups have existed since the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in 1924, their ideology has spread and morphed and altered through various types of fundamentalist Islam (Salafism, Wahhabism etc.) and developed the offshoot of Jihadism through political and religious philosophy developed within the Islamic world and related to the Islamic World. The claim that the West is reponsible for the creation of these groups is West-centric and solipsistic. The Islamic world is capable of producing its own evil as well as its own good, just like any other part of the world.

   
      Arab countries are a warzone since forever, you are right, but can you really explain the expansion of the mujahidin, Al qaeda, ISIS without the russian and US invasions?

It is right for countries to do what they can to help refugees in immediate need. There are a number of related problems, however. The first problem is that the genuine refugees entering Europe at the moment are not all from Syria, but from other parts of the world too, and even the number of genuine refugees in the entire world far exceeds what Europe can cope with. This is why it is better for countries in the immediate vicinity to take on the great majority of refugees and then the numbers dissipate outward from there, so that they can more easily return to their country when it becomes safe again.

The second problem is that, as I said earlier, the majority of people entering Europe are not genuine refugees but are economic migrants (yes, often coming from extremely poor and difficult lives, but nevertheless with no more right to ignore national borders than anybody else in the world). If these people aren’t differentiated from the genuine refugees, then those who are genuinely desperate for asylum from war are going to be losing out to other people. At the moment there is a problem of people disposing of their passports and claiming to be from Syria so that they get preferential treatment.

The third problem, and obviously the largest problem, is that if nothing sensible is figured out about this, then Europe is going to continue to take in tens of thousands of people every week forever, from an infinite well of people with a far, far higher birthrate than that of Europe. Anybody can see that this is going to result in Europe being unable to help refugees ever again because the entire continent will be overcrowded with desperate people from the third world. Its infrastructure will collapse and it will be unable to help itself let alone any refugees.

  This is your opinion on the issue, if you think you thought enough about it, I have no more to say

Indarctos - 07 July 2017 05:23 PM

Talking about muslims as if all were the same its also shameful, and I’m not sure what you want to achieve with that. Are you a Christian? Or should we attribute some Christians behavior to you (i.e. pedophilia)?

You didn’t give any examples of them doing this. I can dig up examples of them saying the exact opposite if you’re interested.

    Why did they spent then half an hour talking about muslims raping and so on? Is that “behavior” proper of just muslims?
    They were trying to explain that there is a justice problem and racism, there was no need for this cherry picking cases to explain this, especially because they went very graphical.

 

Honestly, I have no desire to discuss opinions on this issue. But I despise a dishonest conversation like this podcast where they mentioned just parts of the crisis without really trying to understand the cause and alternatives to the problem. I don’t know if is Sam’s honest view on this or he is not brave enough to face his guests with some harder questions. Seriously, an hour and a half long conversation and no mention of the war.

 

 

 
Spagheddi Western
 
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08 July 2017 11:12
 

Once the patchwork on the global economy starts to fray, these cultural issues are going to become a lot uglier. I work as a journalist in Italy, which is on the front line of Mediterranean migration, and locals frequently grumble about migrants living in free housing with catered meals and 24/7 wi-fi. If the economy heads south the grumbles will turn into shouts.

I agree with Murray’s logic about the net loss that poor and unskilled migrants (like those arriving to Italy) represent for a state with generous benefits. It stands to reason that an illiterate Gambian, with possible injuries from his journey and no support network in Italy, will take more from social welfare (doctors, lawyers, schools, housing, etc) than he can possibly produce, even under the best circumstances. In many cases he will not be able to find legal (taxable) work. Furthermore, this particular migratory wave shows very high remittances to countries like Gambia, Nigeria, Senegal and Bangladesh. In 2015 (latest data), according to Pew Research, Nigeria received $945 million in remittances from Italy. High remittances and little work means minimal investment in the local economy, which effectively translates into failed integration. Most migrants are neither willing nor able to achieve economic (and therefore cultural) integration, accepting conditions unimaginable to Italians with the explicit goal of sending as much money back home as possible. This is far different from the immigrants of the early and mid-1900s who left Europe and Asia, often with their families, to establish new homes overseas. The effect is a depression of low-skill wages and a suction of money from the local economy.

However, Italy’s problem with uncontrolled mass migration from sub-Saharan Africa is different from the problems faced by Germany and France. Most of the migrants reaching Italy are neither refugees nor Muslims, and the sub-Saharan Muslims who do arrive are often not as intransigent in their faith as those from the Middle East. So far, Italy has not been hit by serious Islamic terrorism.

Europe’s social problems can be defined by the combination of migrants’ disinterest in integration and Europeans’ confusion over their own culture. Murray makes a good point when he says that supporters of mass migration are arrogant, or at least naive, in believing that 1) immigrants seek to adopt European cultural norms and 2) that European culture can remain unchanged by growing numbers of young people with substantially different beliefs and habits.

Addressing the first point, the tragic problem that Harris and others point out is that Western mainstream media constantly downplay the danger and scope of Muslim extremism. This is detrimental for many regular Muslims who, while perhaps holding views contrary to strictly secular European values, would nonetheless happily live as silent minorities in exchange for the peace and wealth of Europe.

The second point is particularly worrying because there is a sharp division in Europe over what constitutes European culture. “Progressives” see Europe as an empty basket of state-mandated tolerance while nationalists look to language, ethnicity and religion as a source of identity and values. Neither faction is particularly appealing to the modern young European, who is equally concerned by terrorism as by his own government.

[ Edited: 08 July 2017 14:03 by Spagheddi Western]
 
Rieux
 
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08 July 2017 13:11
 
Indarctos - 08 July 2017 09:00 AM

This is not true, you can check it yourself, Syria Afghanistan and Iraq are the country of origin of most refugees

Yes, these are the three most common countries, but the claim made by Timmermans based on Frontex stats in 2016 was that the cumulative smaller numbers from other countries who were being welcomed is higher than the number of genuine refugees. According to Eurostat stats cited by several major left-leaning media sources including the BBC and The Independent,( http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/images/e/ec/First_time_asylum_applicants_in_the_EU-28_by_citizenship,_Q1_2014_–_Q1_2015.png ) the number of non-Iraqi/Syrian/Afghan people arriving far exceeds the number of refugees from those three countries. It’d be encouraging to see some stats disproving this, things will have changed since then after all - those stats are for the first quarter of 2015. But I’m having a hard time finding anything up to date. At very least it has been the case within the last two years, so there is a sizeable number who have already arrived.

Indarctos - 08 July 2017 09:00 AM

This is true, the war in Syria was probably not started by outsiders. But what’s the situation now? US and russian attacks, ISIS etc..

ISIS in Syria flooded into a wound opened by the civil war in Syria. And I can’t see a connection between US/Russian campaigns in Syria and a country like Germany who have made no armed attacks in Syria and also opposed the Iraq War. The argument being made in the podcast is that there is a hard right that wants to militarise borders and demonise refugees, and a hard left that wants to dissolve all world borders; and that the policies of countries like Germany are much closer to the left side of this continuum. This is why they are saying that it is the political left is responsible for an open door border policy.
   

Indarctos - 08 July 2017 09:00 AM

Arab countries are a warzone since forever, you are right, but can you really explain the expansion of the mujahidin, Al qaeda, ISIS without the russian and US invasions?

No I can’t, but nor is that the whole picture. And it also seems to me a strange logic that says “if Country X involves itself militarily with Country Y, then it follows that migrants from unrelated poor countries around the world will have the right to move to Country X”.

Indarctos - 08 July 2017 09:00 AM

Why did they spent then half an hour talking about muslims raping and so on? Is that “behavior” proper of just muslims?
    They were trying to explain that there is a justice problem and racism, there was no need for this cherry picking cases to explain this, especially because they went very graphical.

They didn’t spend half an hour talking about “Muslims raping” in general, they spent half an hour talking about the gangs of Muslims in Britain who committed mass rape specifically against white, non muslim girls. The main point they were making with regards to racism is that the police and other authorities were so afraid of appearing racist that they did not put a stop to it. As Murray said, a similar culture of silence had risen in Sweden and in Germany. A fear of offending which became so extreme that even mass rape was ignored. This isn’t a comment on all Muslims, it’s a comment on the disastrous course on which multicultural policies have taken the countries of Europe.

Indarctos - 08 July 2017 09:00 AM

Honestly, I have no desire to discuss opinions on this issue. But I despise a dishonest conversation like this podcast where they mentioned just parts of the crisis without really trying to understand the cause and alternatives to the problem. I don’t know if is Sam’s honest view on this or he is not brave enough to face his guests with some harder questions. Seriously, an hour and a half long conversation and no mention of the war.

Fair enough. This topic seemed to be on Douglas Murray’s book though, which explains why it doesn’t touch on the war. Murray’s book is about Europe and its internal problems which are being exposed by the migrant crisis rather than caused by it.

If you want to message Sam I guess you could try the Contact page, I think he does sometimes address comments and questions in the openings of his podcasts.

 
kingkenrod
 
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08 July 2017 13:35
 

I do agree that Piers Morgan is “not a very interesting thinker” but that’s low hanging fruit. And it assumes he’s a thinker at all.

Otherwise, I didn’t like this podcast. At all. It starts with 14 minutes about Rotherham. Is it a problem? Sure, obviously. A harbinger for the downfall of Europe to illiberal hordes of immigrants and their regressive left collaborators? Give me a break. Is Sam’s description about a whole culture willingly letting thousands of their daughters be raped even remotely accurate? No.

Smelled like far-right propaganda from beginning to end. The ambivalence about Tommy Robinson at the end was nauseating.

Sam is really setting his causes back with stuff like this, marginalizing himself into the Pamela Geller sewers in the eyes of many who might be willing to hear his perspective as being apart from that type of garbage.

Please find a new way forward.

 
_Sven_
 
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09 July 2017 02:28
 
Rieux - 08 July 2017 01:11 PM

According to Eurostat stats cited by several major left-leaning media sources including the BBC and The Independent,( http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/images/e/ec/First_time_asylum_applicants_in_the_EU-28_by_citizenship,_Q1_2014_–_Q1_2015.png ) the number of non-Iraqi/Syrian/Afghan people arriving far exceeds the number of refugees from those three countries. It’d be encouraging to see some stats disproving this, things will have changed since then after all - those stats are for the first quarter of 2015. But I’m having a hard time finding anything up to date. At very least it has been the case within the last two years, so there is a sizeable number who have already arrived.

Obviously you won’t see Syrian refugees dominating the European refugee-statistics if you look at stats which cover a time-frame prior to the main wave of Syrian refugees arriving at Europe. Also note those statistics cover APPLICATIONS for asylum. So, yeah those numbers show how many people arrive pretending to be refugees. That doesn’t imply though they’re actually recognized as refugees by the states they seek asylum from. E.g. Germany only accepted about 20% to 50% of applications for asylum each year between 2014 and 2017. Here are some up to date stats: https://www.bpb.de/politik/innenpolitik/flucht/218788/zahlen-zu-asyl-in-deutschland

Rieux - 08 July 2017 01:11 PM

No I can’t, but nor is that the whole picture. And it also seems to me a strange logic that says “if Country X involves itself militarily with Country Y, then it follows that migrants from unrelated poor countries around the world will have the right to move to Country X”.

1.) “the right to move to Country X” Just to clarify this, those Syrians aren’t to stay in Europe. Europe provides shelter as long as their home is a warzone.
2.) There is no policy that applies the strange logic that says unrelated migrants get any rights due to the Syrian civil war.
3.) THE Country X which involves itself military isn’t even significantly affected by the refugee crisis because it has got a buffer-ocean in between themselves and their military playground.
4.) It’s not the whole picture. I’m with Harris, when he states Islam is a mother lode of bad ideas. Religion leads can lead to bad decisions in general, and Islam provides plenty of ground to base justification for violence in particular. However a healthy dose of Chomsky is also needed to get a grasp on what’s going on in the middle east these days. I’d argue the USA has contributed a great deal to the destabilization of the entire region, which allowed the rise of atrocities like ISIS. Starting from arming up religious fanatics to fight the soviets about half a century ago, over executing invasions based on poor motivations like imaginary WMDs, to the negative side effects of todays drone-war. When I see a Syrian refugee these days, I partly blame the USA meddling in the middle east for initiating his journey from his home to my neighborhood.

 
Rieux
 
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09 July 2017 02:58
 
_Sven_ - 09 July 2017 02:28 AM
Rieux - 08 July 2017 01:11 PM

According to Eurostat stats cited by several major left-leaning media sources including the BBC and The Independent,( http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/images/e/ec/First_time_asylum_applicants_in_the_EU-28_by_citizenship,_Q1_2014_–_Q1_2015.png ) the number of non-Iraqi/Syrian/Afghan people arriving far exceeds the number of refugees from those three countries. It’d be encouraging to see some stats disproving this, things will have changed since then after all - those stats are for the first quarter of 2015. But I’m having a hard time finding anything up to date. At very least it has been the case within the last two years, so there is a sizeable number who have already arrived.

Obviously you won’t see Syrian refugees dominating the European refugee-statistics if you look at stats which cover a time-frame prior to the main wave of Syrian refugees arriving at Europe. Also note those statistics cover APPLICATIONS for asylum. So, yeah those numbers show how many people arrive pretending to be refugees. That doesn’t imply though they’re actually recognized as refugees by the states they seek asylum from. E.g. Germany only accepted about 20% to 50% of applications for asylum each year between 2014 and 2017. Here are some up to date stats: https://www.bpb.de/politik/innenpolitik/flucht/218788/zahlen-zu-asyl-in-deutschland

Rieux - 08 July 2017 01:11 PM

No I can’t, but nor is that the whole picture. And it also seems to me a strange logic that says “if Country X involves itself militarily with Country Y, then it follows that migrants from unrelated poor countries around the world will have the right to move to Country X”.

1.) “the right to move to Country X” Just to clarify this, those Syrians aren’t to stay in Europe. Europe provides shelter as long as their home is a warzone.
2.) There is no policy that applies the strange logic that says unrelated migrants get any rights due to the Syrian civil war.
3.) THE Country X which involves itself military isn’t even significantly affected by the refugee crisis because it has got a buffer-ocean in between themselves and their military playground.
4.) It’s not the whole picture. I’m with Harris, when he states Islam is a mother lode of bad ideas. Religion leads can lead to bad decisions in general, and Islam provides plenty of ground to base justification for violence in particular. However a healthy dose of Chomsky is also needed to get a grasp on what’s going on in the middle east these days. I’d argue the USA has contributed a great deal to the destabilization of the entire region, which allowed the rise of atrocities like ISIS. Starting from arming up religious fanatics to fight the soviets about half a century ago, over executing invasions based on poor motivations like imaginary WMDs, to the negative side effects of todays drone-war. When I see a Syrian refugee these days, I partly blame the USA meddling in the middle east for initiating his journey from his home to my neighborhood.

Cheers for the info regarding the top part. It’s a shame they aren’t Europe-wide statistics though because presumably there is a different picture in Greece and Italy to Germany. Also do you have any information on the numbers of those denied asylum being returned?

As for the second part, you’ve got the wrong end of the stick there. I’m not saying that that is policy anywhere at all. I was following through the logic of the previous posters argument and saying that it wouldn’t be sensible to implement. On top of that, that point wasn’t about refugees but rather non-refugees. So I have no disagreements with any of your points.

 
_Sven_
 
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09 July 2017 05:48
 
Rieux - 09 July 2017 02:58 AM

As for the second part, you’ve got the wrong end of the stick there. I’m not saying that that is policy anywhere at all. I was following through the logic of the previous posters argument and saying that it wouldn’t be sensible to implement. On top of that, that point wasn’t about refugees but rather non-refugees. So I have no disagreements with any of your points.

I suppose I made myself receive it by deliberately over-interpreting some sections in a way to maximize my enragement wink

Rieux - 09 July 2017 02:58 AM

Also do you have any information on the numbers of those denied asylum being returned?

That’s an obfuscated problem. Rumor says as much as about half a million people might illegally live in Germany right now. Afaik there is no official statistic which collates all information on how applicants leave the country. On how to get illegals out of the country the measures range from them leaving on their own initiative, over the government formally revoking their right to stay in the country without taking any further actions, over return-programs run by state-governments or non-profit organisations to returns enforced by detention and forcing people onto the next plane/ship home.

The latter isn’t the most common way to execute the return in Germany, but here are the numbers for 2016: http://dip21.bundestag.de/dip21/btd/18/111/1811112.pdf
It’s interesting to note the source here. It’s a “kleine Anfrage” (small request), which is a tool the opposition in the Bundestag can use to nag the government. Bundestags members can ask departments of the government specific questions and they’re obliged to answer them honestly. Here they’ve asked to list how many deportations have been executed listed by means of travel, origin of deportee etc. Now the fact that the opposition has filed in this request in the first place indicates the ministry isn’t exactly eager to publish such information on their own.

It should be possible to find such statistics for state government programs as well. How many people move inside or out of the country without informing the administration can only be estimated at best. Perhaps someone has collected and assembled all the available data out there. If so I haven’t stumbled upon it yet, but I’m not particularly concerned with the refugee problem so it’s not unlikely I’ve simply missed it. It’s a blurry topic for sure and a core problem of the ongoing administrative refugee crisis. It’s tackled with by the government on state and federal level and also a matter relevant for the upcoming election in Germany.

Rieux - 09 July 2017 02:58 AM

It’s a shame they aren’t Europe-wide statistics though because presumably there is a different picture in Greece and Italy to Germany.

Here’s a comparison of how refugees are handled by EU-members http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Asylum_statistics
another German stat-collection: https://www.proasyl.de/thema/fakten-zahlen-argumente/statistiken/ where you can also find some EU-Statistics
and the statistics the German federal office for migration and refugees provides: http://www.bamf.de/DE/Infothek/Statistiken/Asylzahlen/asylzahlen-node.html which is obviously focused on refugees in Germany.

[ Edited: 09 July 2017 06:18 by _Sven_]
 
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