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What is Religion?

 
GAD
 
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GAD
Total Posts:  15811
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13 September 2017 17:14
 
EN - 13 September 2017 04:57 PM
Shaikh Raisuddin - 13 September 2017 10:55 AM

I, you and we all adhere to multiple religions. I have my professional religion, community religion, national religion, linguistic religion, biological religion etc.

No, this is not true, and you are wrong. You have made “religion” simply a word for “culture” or “situation” or “environment.”  You have some agenda behind this, but nobody is buying it, and you need to stop this ridiculous line of argument.

Amen brother!

 
 
SkepticX
 
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SkepticX
Total Posts:  14422
Joined  24-12-2004
 
 
 
13 September 2017 19:55
 
EN - 13 September 2017 04:57 PM
Shaikh Raisuddin - 13 September 2017 10:55 AM

I, you and we all adhere to multiple religions. I have my professional religion, community religion, national religion, linguistic religion, biological religion etc.

No, this is not true, and you are wrong. You have made “religion” simply a word for “culture” or “situation” or “environment.”  You have some agenda behind this, but nobody is buying it, and you need to stop this ridiculous line of argument.


I don’t get the impression he’s remotely interested in examining the merits of his claims any more—he’s 100% dug in and doubling down on themfar too deeply invested. In regard to this topic at least, he’s effectively a dogmabot ... at least until/unless he decides to accept his humanity again.

 
 
Shaikh Raisuddin
 
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Shaikh Raisuddin
Total Posts:  81
Joined  20-03-2015
 
 
 
13 September 2017 22:37
 
GAD - 13 September 2017 05:14 PM
EN - 13 September 2017 04:57 PM
Shaikh Raisuddin - 13 September 2017 10:55 AM

I, you and we all adhere to multiple religions. I have my professional religion, community religion, national religion, linguistic religion, biological religion etc.

No, this is not true, and you are wrong. You have made “religion” simply a word for “culture” or “situation” or “environment.”  You have some agenda behind this, but nobody is buying it, and you need to stop this ridiculous line of argument.

Amen brother!

Answer me one question: Are the meanings of words of any dictionary scientifically verified to mean what they ought to mean?

If not then why you or anyone is dogmatic to mean the word religion the way you have been mislead to believe.

It is loud and clear that:
Words are beliefs
God is belief
science is belief (tested)

 

 
Shaikh Raisuddin
 
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Shaikh Raisuddin
Total Posts:  81
Joined  20-03-2015
 
 
 
13 September 2017 22:40
 

Can anyone make explain science, religion, law, literature etc without using language?

Why whole science is not known instantly instead of knowing in ages?

 
Shaikh Raisuddin
 
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Shaikh Raisuddin
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13 September 2017 22:44
 
SkepticX - 13 September 2017 07:55 PM
EN - 13 September 2017 04:57 PM
Shaikh Raisuddin - 13 September 2017 10:55 AM

I, you and we all adhere to multiple religions. I have my professional religion, community religion, national religion, linguistic religion, biological religion etc.

No, this is not true, and you are wrong. You have made “religion” simply a word for “culture” or “situation” or “environment.”  You have some agenda behind this, but nobody is buying it, and you need to stop this ridiculous line of argument.


I don’t get the impression he’s remotely interested in examining the merits of his claims any more—he’s 100% dug in and doubling down on themfar too deeply invested. In regard to this topic at least, he’s effectively a dogmabot ... at least until/unless he decides to accept his humanity again.

Please read my article titled, “Dictionary is Misery of Mankind” given at the link earlier, before making any judgement.

You cannot justify your dogma behind ignorance.

 
Nhoj Morley
 
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Nhoj Morley
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Joined  22-02-2005
 
 
 
13 September 2017 23:05
 

We cannot communicate with you without language and it is a pity that your English skills cannot perceive the attempts.

I read your misery thing and I cannot relate to how you look at things. The issues you raise also require a vision of reality that is different than my own. 

Please don’t get crabby.

 
MrRon
 
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MrRon
Total Posts:  1480
Joined  14-08-2008
 
 
 
14 September 2017 03:24
 

Shaikh,

If “the dictionary is the misery of mankind”, then what solution do you propose? Would the world be better off with no dictionaries? What is your point to all this?

And, you still haven’t answered my questions.

Ron

 
EN
 
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EN
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Joined  11-03-2007
 
 
 
14 September 2017 04:28
 
Shaikh Raisuddin - 13 September 2017 10:37 PM
GAD - 13 September 2017 05:14 PM
EN - 13 September 2017 04:57 PM
Shaikh Raisuddin - 13 September 2017 10:55 AM

I, you and we all adhere to multiple religions. I have my professional religion, community religion, national religion, linguistic religion, biological religion etc.

No, this is not true, and you are wrong. You have made “religion” simply a word for “culture” or “situation” or “environment.”  You have some agenda behind this, but nobody is buying it, and you need to stop this ridiculous line of argument.

Amen brother!

Answer me one question: Are the meanings of words of any dictionary scientifically verified to mean what they ought to mean?

If not then why you or anyone is dogmatic to mean the word religion the way you have been mislead to believe.

It is loud and clear that:
Words are beliefs
God is belief
science is belief (tested)

There is no “ought” to what a word means.  Language develops through usage and meanings change with time and context.  Your whole premise ignore reality. Anyway, I’m done here.

 
Kalessin
 
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Kalessin
Total Posts:  128
Joined  02-07-2017
 
 
 
14 September 2017 16:36
 

It’s good that you are engaging with other posters, this is the first time I have seen this.  However far apart positions are, civil dialogue is almost always a positive activity.

Shaikh Raisuddin - 13 September 2017 10:37 PM

It is loud and clear that:
Words are beliefs
God is belief
science is belief (tested)

I don’t think this framework is either a priori or self-evident - instead I would say:

1. Words are tools and manifestations of cognition and communication.
2. God is an explanatory proposition or concept.
3. Science is a methodology for investigating the material world.

I think you are conflating many things into a notion of “belief” and creating a reductionist tautology.  Belief is also a word.  God is a word.  Science is a word.  So your sentence ends up as -

1. Words are beliefs and beliefs are words (A is B and B is A)
2. God is belief and God is a word (C is B and C is A)
3. science is belief and science is a word (D is A and D is B, and by logical deduction also D is C)

Or:

1. A = A, B, C, and D
2. B = B, A, C and D
3. C = C, A, B and D

Or:

Words, Belief, God and Science are all the same as each other
(A, B C and D are the same as each other)

If they are all the same as each other you cannot make any inferences or build any syllogisms, infer any causality or cosmology, or make any meaningful statement based on them or including them.  If that is your aim, to subvert language by rendering it meaningless, the only outcome is necessarily lacking meaning. 

If your aim to try and posit a non-linguistic transcendence or Platonic “other” of ineffable reality, then we can get to grips with Wittgenstein in discussing language and Plato in discussing metaphysics.  Sure, I am up for that.

 
Shaikh Raisuddin
 
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Shaikh Raisuddin
Total Posts:  81
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16 September 2017 12:49
 

Do we understand what actual is?

Does explanation equals experience?

What is responsible for difference in explanation and experience?

When words are beliefs then everything made of words is belief.

 
Kalessin
 
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Kalessin
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16 September 2017 13:36
 
Shaikh Raisuddin - 16 September 2017 12:49 PM

Do we understand what actual is?
Does explanation equals experience?
What is responsible for difference in explanation and experience?
When words are beliefs then everything made of words is belief.

Thank you for responding.  I think I have answered this quite clearly: your premise (based on the language you have used) is that “Words, Belief, God and Science are all the same as each other”.  You’ve just said this - everything made of words is belief..  I have also tried to show where this line takes you and why in fact it does not inherently support deism or transcendence.

Let me try another approach - what is your perspective on hard solipsism?  If you are building an argument based on the relationship between language, thinking and reality, that you want to relate to faith and divinity, how do you address the hard solipsism problem? 

In that instance, regardless of the process of our thinking, the ability to draw conclusions that support any undemonstrable propositions is not present, and no propositions can be demonstrated by means of internal logic since solipsism renders any internal structure as arbitrary and possibly false/non-universal.

You could argue that “belief” is inherent within solipsism as one of the pillars of consciousness that lie outside sense experience, and the brilliant Avicenna raises this in his ‘floating man’ thought experiment.  Avicenna hoped this would demonstrate logically the existence of a transcendent soul, but clearly with our understanding of the brain we know this is not necessarily so: hard solipsism allows for all variants of sense experience and none without positing the Divine.

You might think that hard solipsism just supports a “belief is everything” position in the absence of anything else; this is OK as long as you are clear that ALL beliefs are meaningless - but as soon as you want to make a proposition that includes science or religion, the inevitable next step is one of propositional demonstration. 

With all respect, I enjoy this logical puzzle but it is your responsibility to develop your case without simply repeating prior assertions that have already been addressed.  A counter-refutation is fine, but you need to show your understanding of the opposing argument, as I have attempted to do with you.

Kalessin smile

PS. I am personally fascinated with Islamic philosophy and believe that many of these ideas were explored in the middle ages and Renaissance.  The importance of emanations and the nature of existence as reflected in words is very interesting, and was picked up by many of the Christian philosophers.  However, it is clear that the enlightenment and subsequent philosophical movements have found answers and challenges to the ingenious arguments put forward.

 
MrRon
 
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MrRon
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16 September 2017 14:09
 
Shaikh Raisuddin - 16 September 2017 12:49 PM

Do we understand what actual is?

Does explanation equals experience?

What is responsible for difference in explanation and experience?

When words are beliefs then everything made of words is belief.

Are you ever going to tell us what your end game is? So let’s agree for the moment that everything that is made of words is belief. And that everything - even atheism - is “religion.” And that the dictionary is the misery of mankind. The next question is… NOW WHAT? What is the big reveal?? Please make your point! Or is your only point to play word games?

Ron

 
Shaikh Raisuddin
 
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Shaikh Raisuddin
Total Posts:  81
Joined  20-03-2015
 
 
 
17 September 2017 03:38
 
MrRon - 16 September 2017 02:09 PM
Shaikh Raisuddin - 16 September 2017 12:49 PM

Do we understand what actual is?

Does explanation equals experience?

What is responsible for difference in explanation and experience?

When words are beliefs then everything made of words is belief.

Are you ever going to tell us what your end game is? So let’s agree for the moment that everything that is made of words is belief. And that everything - even atheism - is “religion.” And that the dictionary is the misery of mankind. The next question is… NOW WHAT? What is the big reveal?? Please make your point! Or is your only point to play word games?

Ron

The BIG REVEAL is SCIENCE OF CONSCIOUSNESS

And freedom from anthropocentric worldview

And finally becoming of the world OBVIOUS before eyes without “interpretation"and its errors. Only truth will be believed.

 

 
Shaikh Raisuddin
 
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Shaikh Raisuddin
Total Posts:  81
Joined  20-03-2015
 
 
 
17 September 2017 03:48
 
Kalessin - 16 September 2017 01:36 PM
Shaikh Raisuddin - 16 September 2017 12:49 PM

Do we understand what actual is?
Does explanation equals experience?
What is responsible for difference in explanation and experience?
When words are beliefs then everything made of words is belief.

Thank you for responding.  I think I have answered this quite clearly: your premise (based on the language you have used) is that “Words, Belief, God and Science are all the same as each other”.  You’ve just said this - everything made of words is belief..  I have also tried to show where this line takes you and why in fact it does not inherently support deism or transcendence.

Let me try another approach - what is your perspective on hard solipsism?  If you are building an argument based on the relationship between language, thinking and reality, that you want to relate to faith and divinity, how do you address the hard solipsism problem? 

In that instance, regardless of the process of our thinking, the ability to draw conclusions that support any undemonstrable propositions is not present, and no propositions can be demonstrated by means of internal logic since solipsism renders any internal structure as arbitrary and possibly false/non-universal.

You could argue that “belief” is inherent within solipsism as one of the pillars of consciousness that lie outside sense experience, and the brilliant Avicenna raises this in his ‘floating man’ thought experiment.  Avicenna hoped this would demonstrate logically the existence of a transcendent soul, but clearly with our understanding of the brain we know this is not necessarily so: hard solipsism allows for all variants of sense experience and none without positing the Divine.

You might think that hard solipsism just supports a “belief is everything” position in the absence of anything else; this is OK as long as you are clear that ALL beliefs are meaningless - but as soon as you want to make a proposition that includes science or religion, the inevitable next step is one of propositional demonstration. 

With all respect, I enjoy this logical puzzle but it is your responsibility to develop your case without simply repeating prior assertions that have already been addressed.  A counter-refutation is fine, but you need to show your understanding of the opposing argument, as I have attempted to do with you.

Kalessin smile

PS. I am personally fascinated with Islamic philosophy and believe that many of these ideas were explored in the middle ages and Renaissance.  The importance of emanations and the nature of existence as reflected in words is very interesting, and was picked up by many of the Christian philosophers.  However, it is clear that the enlightenment and subsequent philosophical movements have found answers and challenges to the ingenious arguments put forward.

The source of our getting cheated/misguided lies within us on that we trust fully ie the human mind.

Human mind is artificial. It is a “social-implant” into our body like a software is a human implant into a computer

May please the link https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/human-mind-artificial-shaikh-raisuddin

 

 
MrRon
 
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MrRon
Total Posts:  1480
Joined  14-08-2008
 
 
 
17 September 2017 05:46
 
Shaikh Raisuddin - 17 September 2017 03:38 AM
MrRon - 16 September 2017 02:09 PM
Shaikh Raisuddin - 16 September 2017 12:49 PM

Do we understand what actual is?

Does explanation equals experience?

What is responsible for difference in explanation and experience?

When words are beliefs then everything made of words is belief.

Are you ever going to tell us what your end game is? So let’s agree for the moment that everything that is made of words is belief. And that everything - even atheism - is “religion.” And that the dictionary is the misery of mankind. The next question is… NOW WHAT? What is the big reveal?? Please make your point! Or is your only point to play word games?

Ron

The BIG REVEAL is SCIENCE OF CONSCIOUSNESS

And freedom from anthropocentric worldview

And finally becoming of the world OBVIOUS before eyes without “interpretation"and its errors. Only truth will be believed.

Here’s another BIG REVEAL…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9a3eCHij4Vo

Ron

 
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