Why does Fundie Islam hate the west?  Culture or belief?

Total Posts:  1149
Joined  14-11-2005
29 November 2005 07:13

Sept 11th. Nuff said. I was under the impression that Islamic jihaddhists hate the west because western women flagrantly shake their booty and our pop culture drives them batty with pious wrath and indignation.

Is this tied to

1. They hate our culture
2. They hate our religion

Because I have delved into a series of articles exploring how religious intolerance among religions could prove the downfall of certain civiliations.

We hate you… we bomb you… you bombed us… we hate you… we bomb you… you bombed us… we hate you more now… so… we nuke you… you nuked us… we hate you more… so we will annihlate you.

What is the genesis of their hatred?  The Qu'ran lines out how islam should punish and kill the unbeliever… is that part and parcel to it?  Or a combo of both the "evil" slightly hedonsitic western culture and western belief?

I am having a hard time believing a human would kill another human simply because he becomes enraged over watching american MTV.

What thinkest thou?


Total Posts:  882
Joined  23-02-2005
29 November 2005 09:29

I think it is a combination of a number of factors, and, like so many things, it is more nuanced than most people realize.

The religion (Islam) certainly plays a factor, given that even moderately fundamentalist interpretations require one to look forward to a world that is dominated by Islam in one form or another.

It is also fair to note that Islam contains plenty of justification for violence.  I don’t care to engage Muslims in the debate over whether or not this is a legitimate interpretation, because to my way of thinking, it only matters that a substantial percentage of Muslims adhere to such an interpretation.

Still, there does not seem to be a time table, so, in theory, a strict adherant to a fairly fundamental version of Islam could desire an Islamic planet, and even be willing to use violence to get it, but would not bother, because it is a goal that is being worked towards over time, and will not be accomplished in the near term.

This is the kind of rationalization that we see religious people of all persuasions use when they opt to live “normally” instead of acting on the more extreme suggestions contained in their faith.

I believe that, were contact between the Middle East and the west minimal (IE, no oil, minor trade, and no Israel) that the issues would be considerably less, but that isn’t the case.  Consider the following:

1.  The Middle East derives a large amount of its wealth (and hence the economic means to pursue modern war/terrorism) from the sale of oil.  Without the oil trade, the resources to pursue organized global terrorism would be decidedly less available.

2.  Muslim nations are irritated by the protracted projection of western power in their region.  Ever since WWII, America and Europe realized that maintaining a constant supply of Mid-East oil was critical for ongoing economic expansion.  The fact that western nations have a fairly different set of values exacerbates this problem.

3.  Israel is percieved, by many Islamic states, as an enemy.  The fact that they are simultaneously compelled to do business with, and tolerate the presence of, Israel’s single most valuable patron/ally must surely chafe.

4.  Many peoples, the world over, are complaining about “Global Monoculture”.  This perception that indigenous cultures are being obliterated by western influence is particularly strong amongst many devout Muslims.  Given that devout Muslims also believe that sufficient social corruption leads to Hell, it is no wonder that they would seek to reduce the amount of access that western culture has to their lands.

5.  The first four points represent some of the major (although not all) reasons why the Muslims are irritated with the west in general, and America in particular.  The final ingredient, in my opinion, is the lack of a clear alternative.  Western influence is growing (the Internet, sat. TV, increased monetary relations, increased military presence, etc.).  To the radical Islamist, there is no obvious “peaceful” course to pursue to achieve any sort of desirable outcome in any sort of reasonable timeframe, and, in the meantime, the corruption (especially of the youth) marches on.

Obviously, other people will disagree with me, and, to be fair, the issue can be viewed through any number of different explanatory filters, each of which will give a slightly different view.

At the end of the day, however, I agree with Sam.  Of all of those reasons, if the fundamentalist religion were to be removed, the other issues could be addressed peacefully.


Total Posts:  54
Joined  22-11-2005
29 November 2005 10:12

Hi Noggin,

The answer is, yes, fundamentalists dislike our culture. But in reality, they dislike all non-Islamic cultures. This is a matter of belief. The “genesis” of the matter: Islam itself. I shall bring my proofs.

In Islam, the first and foremost expression of belief is the statement: La ilaha illallah, Muhammadur Rasulullah which means: “There is no god but Allah and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah”. This is the statement of Tawheed (Islamic monotheism) and it is the nexus of all of Islam. It seems unthreatening enough, but let me break it down with some exegesis by some Muslim scholars.

Ibn al-Qayyim (691H-751H) said that the word of Tawheed is the reason for which: “Balances of Justice are set up, records of deeds are registered, the day of Paradise and Hell is appointed, creatures are divided into believers and disbelievers, pious and evil-doers, the religion of Islam is established and swords are unsheathed for Jihad.” (*the quotations I have cited are from the book Al-Wala’ wa’l-Bara’ According to the ‘Aqeedah of the Salaf by Muhammad Saeed al-Qahtani, Al-Firdous, London, 1999)

Ibn Taymiyyah said: “The heart will not find complete happiness except by loving Allah and by striving towards what is dear to Him. It is not possible to achieve this love except by rejecting all things that compete with it. This is what the words, “There is no god but Allah”, mean…” (emphasis mine).

So the declaration of faith, the word of Tawheed, is both an affirmation and a rejection. The affirmation of the existence of Allah, and that all He revealed is true and the best (including governance), and the rejection of every other god and form of governance.

The Qur’an states: “Follow that which is sent down to you from your Lord, and follow no protecting friends besides Him. Little do you recollect!” (7:3)

And: “There is a good example for you in Abraham and those with him, when they told their people: Surely we disassociate ourselves from you and all that you worship besides Allah. We have done with you, and there has arisen between us and you enmity and hate forever, until you believe in Allah alone.” (60:4)

From the hadith literature we get Muhammad saying:

“The strongest bond of faith is loyalty for the sake of Allah and opposition for His sake, love for the sake of Allah and enmity for His sake.” (At-Tabarani)

Simply believing in God is not enough. Drastic action is required on the part of a true believer. This is the enmity referred to here. This enmity/disassociation/hatred is part of a concept known in Islam as al-Wala wa’l-Bara, put simply, love and hate for the sake of Islam. Love for Allah and all He revealed, and enmity to everything else.

There are different levels of enmity and cooperation with disbelievers. The book I have been quoting from is a 3-volume English translation dedicated completely to this topic. In time maybe I’ll produce more paragraphs from it…

So - it is not Western culture as such that the fundamentalists hate; it’s any non-Islamic culture. The fact that they are attacking the West is because of our dubious political decisions and alliances in the last hundred or so years in the Middle East, that they want to change. If the political decisions made by the Western powers toward the welfare of the people of the Middle East were more in line with justice, not exploitation, over the last hundred years, we would doubtful be feeling the theological sting today. Islam is seen by many Muslims as the last chance at regaining dignity, or even glory, as all the other systems, they say, have failed them.

Hope that enlightened you somewhat,

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Joined  22-12-2004
29 November 2005 20:48

I think they are scared of our women !!

Total Posts:  54
Joined  22-11-2005
29 November 2005 21:38

When I read things like this , I know they actually want them. There’s no limit to the amount of slaves you can have, ya know .

3-D Scrabble
3-D Scrabble
Total Posts:  108
Joined  13-11-2005
01 December 2005 14:12

I have not yet read the Qur’an. In those writings,does Allah come across as a contadictory being, as God does in the Bible? Does he resemble God of the Bible,or does he have a different personality?

Thanks, 3-D

Total Posts:  54
Joined  22-11-2005
03 December 2005 11:31

God definitely has a different personality in the Qur’an! He uses allegory less and gets straight to the point. He is simply loving and kind to the believers and harsh and severe to non-believers, just as he wants his people (see Q48:29). The contradictions aren’t as straight forward as the Bible and the Muslim apologentsia have done alot of homework to cover perceived ‘contradictions’. If you google contradictions in the Qur’an you’ll be in for a bit of a read…

But you know, at the start of every chapter in the Qur’an (besides the 9th which funnily enough is also the most severe chapter against disbelievers in this life) , Muhammad (or ‘Allah’ if you like) writes: Bismillahi al-Rahman al-Rahim which means, ‘In the Name of Allah, the Most Compassionate, the Most Merciful’.  For a god who can throw billions of people into Hellfire for all eternity for not believing in him or his ‘prophet’, who can also “see all things”, “hear all things” and “do all things”, yet still thinks eternal torture is a fine and just punishment, one wonders why out of 114 chapters in the Qur’an, Muslims rarely pick up on the contradiction of Allah’s “mercy”. [It’s reserved only for believers, that’s right!]

I hope I sorta answered your question,

3-D Scrabble
3-D Scrabble
Total Posts:  108
Joined  13-11-2005
03 December 2005 14:01

Thanks for the reply. I will get an english translation from the library. Started learning arabic 2 years ago when out of town for a job. Should have stuck with it , I found it quite beautifull even as a rank beginner. I guess I will have to wait for retirement before I try again.

Total Posts:  54
Joined  22-11-2005
04 December 2005 09:42

Arabic is a beautiful language. It’s a shame that so many Arabs still hold the Qur’an as the book of linguistic perfection. No Arab Shakespeare has arisen yet due to the whole apostasy threat, but I can’t wait till he does!

Total Posts:  77
Joined  19-12-2005
21 December 2005 15:02


[quote author=“Noggin”]

..What is the genesis of their hatred?  The Qu’ran lines out how islam should punish and kill the unbeliever…

Please provide specific verses from the Qur’an to support your claim?

Total Posts:  1149
Joined  14-11-2005
23 December 2005 09:47

[quote author=“Guest”]Noggin,

[quote author=“Noggin”]

..What is the genesis of their hatred?  The Qu’ran lines out how islam should punish and kill the unbeliever…

Guest wrote: Please provide specific verses from the Qur’an to support your claim?

Hi, guest.

For the unbeliever who never worshipped the “one true god” Allah:

“Kill those who believe in many gods” (Sura al-Tawba 9:5)

For the Muslim who leaves the Muslim faith thus becoming an unbeliever:

If a Muslim is found guilty of the crime of apostasy, either through words or through actions, he will be asked to repent during a three day period. If he has not repented within this time limit, he will be sentenced to death as an apostate and his property will be seized by the Revenue office. Every Muslim who refuses to pray will be asked to comply with the obligation to pray within the prescribed time limit. If he persists in his refusal, he will be punished by death.” Article 306 of the Mauritanian Constitution

and please see from the Hadith:

Kill whoever changes his religion,” Hadith.

Though not entirely Qu’ranic, the sentiment from Hadith (sayings from Mohammed) and the Mauritanian Constitution display the willingness to kill for dogma in the faith of islam.


Total Posts:  77
Joined  19-12-2005
23 December 2005 10:41

[quote author=“Noggin”][quote author=“Guest”]Noggin,

[quote author=“Noggin”]

..What is the genesis of their hatred?  The Qu’ran lines out how islam should punish and kill the unbeliever…

Guest wrote: Please provide specific verses from the Qur’an to support your claim?

Hi, guest.

For the unbeliever who never worshipped the “one true god” Allah:

“Kill those who believe in many gods” (Sura al-Tawba 9:5)


[9:1] Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty.

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 9:1]
Bara-at implies freedom from obligation and uncompromising severance of relations with the infidels. Please refer to the introduction of this surah.

[ 9:2] Travel freely in the land four months, and know that ye cannot escape Allah and that Allah will confound the disbelievers (in His Guidance).

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 9:2] (see commentary for verse 1)

[9:3] And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters, and (so is) His messenger. So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve,

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 9:3]
The epithet “great” is only added to distinguish hajj from umra. Every hajj is called hajj al akbar and umra is called hajj al asghar. The verses of al Bara-at were recited on the occasion of hajj in 9 Hijra, when a large number of pagans were present in Ka-bah. From 10 Hijra their entry into Ka-bah had been totally banned. Allah and the Holy Prophet have severed all connections with the polytheists who had deliberately and persistently violated the pledges and acted treacherously.

[ 9:4] Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 9:4]
Fulfilling all obligations even to non-muslims who had not proved traitors was enjoined as a cardinal principle. The Muslims were commanded to fight against those infidels who violated the pledges and acted treacherously, in order to destroy the power base of evil.

[9:5] Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 9:5]
The command to fight against the perfidious and treacherous group of infidels who persistently violated the treaties and tried to destroy peace and security, was to restore law and order in the society. The command was not general but only refers to particular groups of the Makkan idolaters who were notorious offenders. They used to harass the Muslims whenever they found them helpless and when overpowered prayed for amnesty by making treaties which they used to break before their ink was dried.
When war becomes inevitable it must be fought with vigour. It may take the form of slaughter, or capture, or siege or ambush, but even then there is room for repentance and amendment, and if that takes place forgiveness is enjoined for the establishment of peace and harmony.

[9:6] And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not.

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 9:6]

The injunction to give asylum to those enemies who seek protection is to provide them opportunities for hearing the true message of Allah, so that they may see the light of reason and accept the true religion of Allah. It is the highest form of tolerance.
It is said that after hearing the verses of this surah from Ali ibn abi Talib some of the pagans asked him if they went to the Holy Prophet to know about Islam would they be killed? In reply Ali recited this verse.

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

Islam enjoins upon its followers to give people every kind of facility to hear and understand the word of Allah. No other scripture contains such a provision for those who do not believe in the faith it propagates. The pagans of Makka, the worst enemies of Allah, were allowed to enjoy protection so that they might first know the teachings of the religion of Allah and then decide about their future conduct.



Thank you for your response, but as you see my concern was if you were reading out of context.

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Joined  17-12-2005
23 December 2005 11:41

Muslims simply hate. The target could be anything and anyone. Hate, vengeance, rage, blame, conspiracy theory, intolerance, and other such negative crushers of the human spirit and soul are simply a part of the Muslim makeup. I say this as a former Muslim. I can see these traits, in varying degree, in my own extended family or my family’s Muslim associates. I see this in Islamic literature and especially in the very book they deem to be their god’s word.  In light of various Muslim-inflicted tragedies targeting America or American interests, it’s certainly understandable that we would feel “they hate us.” But, if you lived in India, you could be a Hindu asking the same; or a Christian in Pakistan wondering the same.  There is a grave sense of superiority among Muslims and it is unfortunately their undoing in their inability to make progress, whether as a society or an economy. In my opinion and observation, it is the louder ones who scream “death to American.” But in the quiet and privacy of their homes, among their own kind, I have found venom being thrown around for all people and all things non-Muslim.

Total Posts:  1149
Joined  14-11-2005
23 December 2005 15:29

Hello Guest.  I posted only a few quickies.  Thank you kindly for the context.  However, the Muslim holy writ is chalk full of gruesomeness.  Ready?  Okay:

On Murdering disbelievers (Unbelievers)...

Tabari IX:69 “Killing disbelievers is a small matter to us.”

Tabari VIII:141 “The battle cry of the Companions of the Messenger of Allah that night was: ‘Kill! Kill! Kill!’”

Bukhari:V5B59N512 “The Prophet had their men killed, their woman and children taken captive.”

Ishaq:489 “Do the bastards think that we are not their equal in fighting? We are men who think that there is no shame in killing.”

Qur’an 2:191 “And kill them wherever you find and catch them. Drive them out from where they have turned you out; for Al-Fitnah (polytheism, disbelief, oppression) is worse than slaughter.”

Qur’an 33:60 “Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. Then they will not be able to stay as your neighbors for any length of time. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy—a fierce slaughter—murdered, a horrible murdering.”

Bukhari:V4B52N270 “Allah’s Messenger said, ‘Who is ready to kill Ashraf? He has said injurious things about Allah and His Apostle.’ Maslama got up saying, ‘Would you like me to kill him?’ The Prophet proclaimed, ‘Yes.’ Maslama said, ‘Then allow me to lie so that I will be able to deceive him.’ Muhammad said, ‘You may do so.’”

Ishaq:368 “Ka’b’s body was left prostrate [humbled in submission]. After his fall, all of the Nadir Jews were brought low. Sword in hand we cut him down. By Muhammad’s order we were sent secretly by night. Brother killing brother. We lured him to his death with guile [cunning or deviousness]. Traveling by night, bold as lions, we went into his home. We made him taste death with our deadly swords. We sought victory for the religion of the Prophet.”

Tabari VII:97/Ishaq:368 “We carried Ka’b’s head and brought it to Muhammad during the night. We saluted him as he stood praying and told him that we had slain Allah’s enemy. When he came out to us we cast Ashraf’s head before his feet. The Prophet praised Allah that the poet had been assassinated and complimented us on the good work we had done in Allah’s Cause. Our attack upon Allah’s enemy cast terror among the Jews, and there was no Jew in Medina who did not fear for his life.’”

Tabari VII:97 “The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, ‘Kill any Jew who falls under your power.’”

Tabari VII:112/Ishaq:372 “When a blind Jew became aware of the presence of the Messenger and the Muslims he rose and threw dust in their faces, saying, ‘Even if you are a prophet, I will not allow you into my garden!’ I was told that he took a handful of dirt and said, ‘If only I knew that I would not hit anyone else, Muhammad, I would throw it in your face.’ Sa’d rushed in and hit him on the head with his bow and split the Jew’s head open.”

Ishaq:403 “Allah killed twenty-two polytheists at Uhud.”

The list goes on and on for many pages all citing gruesome accounts of murder in the name of Allah.

On Torture….

Qur’an 5:33 “The punishment for those who wage war against Allah and His Prophet and make mischief in the land, is to murder them, crucify them, or cut off a hand and foot on opposite sides…their doom is dreadful. They will not escape the fire, suffering constantly.”

Tabari VIII:122/Ishaq:515 “The Prophet gave orders concerning Kinanah to Zubayr, saying, ‘Torture him until you root out and extract what he has. So Zubayr kindled a fire on Kinanah’s chest, twirling it with his firestick until Kinanah was near death. Then the Messenger gave him to Maslamah, who beheaded him.”

Bukhari:V4B54N487 “The Prophet said, ‘The Hell Fire is 69 times hotter than ordinary worldly fires.’ So someone said, ‘Allah’s Apostle, wouldn’t this ordinary fire have been sufficient to torture the unbelievers?’”

Bukhari:V4B52N260 “Ali burnt some [former Muslims alive] and this news reached Ibn Abbas, who said, ‘Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, “Don’t punish with Allah’s Punishment.” No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, “If a Muslim discards his Islamic religion, kill him.”’”

Qur’an 48:27 “If the Muslims had not been there, We would have punished the unbelievers with a grievous torture.”

Qur’an 9:5 “When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”

Ishaq:550 “The Muslims met them with their swords. They cut through many arms and skulls. Only confused cries and groans could be heard over our battle roars and snarling.”

Qur’an 5:37 “The [Christian] disbelievers will long to get out of the Fire, but never will they get out there from; and theirs will be an enduring torture.”

Tabari IX:6 “The chief sheep tender sent out spies to obtain intelligence. But they came back with their joints dislocated. When he asked what had happened, they said, ‘We saw white men on black horses. Before we could resist, we were struck as you see us now.”

Ishaq:595 “The Apostle said, ‘Get him away from me and cut off his tongue.””

Ishaq:312 “Umar said to the Apostle, ‘Let me pull out Suhayl’s two front teeth. That way his tongue will stick out and he will never be able to speak against you again.’”

Ishaq:316 “Following Badr, Muhammad sent a number of raiders with orders to capture some of the Meccans and burn them alive.”

Qur’an 8:12 “Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.”

Tabari VII:133/Ishaq:387 “When Muhammad saw Hamzah he said, ‘If Allah gives me victory over the Quraysh at any time, I shall mutilate thirty of their men!’ When the Muslims saw the rage of the Prophet they said, ‘By Allah, if we are victorious over them, we shall mutilate them in a way which no Arab has ever mutilated anybody.”

Tabari VIII:96 “A raiding party led by Zayd set out against Umm in Ramadan. During it, Umm suffered a cruel death. Zyad tied her legs with rope and then tied her between two camels until they split her in two. She was a very old woman. Then they brought Umm’s daughter and Abdallah to the Messenger. Umm’s daughter belonged to Salamah who had captured her. Muhammad asked Salamah for her, and Salamah gave her to him.”

Guest, how do you justify this as the actions of a holy man beginning a holy religion sanctioned by a holy god?

On Muslim Martyrdom…

Muslim:C31B20N4645 “The Prophet said: ‘Whoever cheerfully accepts Allah as his Lord, Islam as his Religion and Muhammad as his Apostle is necessarily entitled to enter Paradise.’ Abu wondered at it and said: ‘Messenger of Allah, repeat that for me.’ He did that and said: ‘There is another act which elevates the position of a man in Paradise to a grade one hundred (higher), and the elevation between one grade and the other is equal to the height of the heaven from the earth.’ Abu said: ‘What is that act?’ He replied: ‘Jihad in the Way of Allah! Jihad in Allah’s Cause!’”

Bukhari:V4B52N53 “The Prophet said, ‘Nobody who dies and finds Paradise would wish to come back to this life even if he were given the whole world and whatever is in it, except the martyr who, on seeing the superiority of martyrdom, would like to come back to get killed again in Allah’s Cause.’”

Bukhari:V4B52N54 “The Prophet said, ‘Were it not for the believers who do not want me to leave them, I would certainly and always go forth in army units setting out in Allah’s Cause. I would love to be martyred in Allah’s Cause and then get resurrected and then get martyred, and then get resurrected again and then get martyred and then get resurrected again and then get martyred.’”

Qur’an 33:22 “The Believers said: ‘This is what Allah and his Messenger promised us.’ It added to their faith, obedience, and submission. Among the Believers are men who have been true to their covenant with Allah and have gone out for Jihad (holy fighting). Some have completed their vow to extreme (and have been martyred) fighting and dying in His Cause, and some are waiting, prepared for death in battle.”

Bukhari:V4B53N386 “Our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: ‘Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master.”

Bukhari V4B52N46 “I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, ‘Allah guarantees that He will admit the Muslim fighter into Paradise if he is killed, otherwise He will return him to his home safely with rewards and booty.’”

Ishaq:518 “Masud was one of those who found martyrdom at Khaybar. Muhammad said, ‘He has with him now his two dark-eyed virgins. When a martyr is slain, his two virgins pet him, wiping the dust from his face. They say, “May Allah throw dust on the face of the man who did this to you, and slay him who slew you!”’”

Tabari VIII:153/Ishaq:533 “Abdallah Rawahah encouraged the men, saying, ‘By Allah, what you loathe is the very thing you came out to seek—martyrdom. We are not fighting the enemy with number, strength, or multitude, but we are fighting them with this religion with which Allah has honored us. So come on! Both prospects are fine: victory or martyrdom.’”

Qur’an 9:111 “Allah has purchased the believers, their lives and their goods. For them (in return) is the Garden (of Paradise). They fight in Allah’s Cause, and slay others and are slain, they kill and are killed. It is a promise binding on Him in the Taurat (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel), and the Qur’an. And who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? Then rejoice in the bargain which you have concluded. It is the achievement supreme.”

Qur’an 4:74 “Let those who fight in the Cause of Allah sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the Cause of Allah, whether he is slain or gets victory—soon shall We give him a great reward.”

Muslim:C29B20N4634 “The Messenger of Allah said, ‘Nobody who dies and has something good for him with Allah will (like to) return even though he were offered the whole world and all that is in it (as an inducement), except the martyr who desires to return and be killed for the merit of martyrdom.’”

Muslim:C29B20N4635 “The Prophet said: ‘Nobody who enters Paradise wants return even if he were offered everything on the surface of the earth except the martyr who will desire to return and be killed ten times for the sake of the great honor that has been bestowed upon him.’”

Bukhari:V8B76N550 “I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, ‘From my followers there will be a crowd of 70,000 in number who will enter Paradise all together.’”

Muslim:C33B20N4651 “We asked Abdallah about the Qur’anic Verse: ‘Think not of those who are slain in Allah’s way as dead. Nay, they are alive, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord.’ ”

Guest,  Sam Harris pointed out in his book End of Faith that when a “martyred” suicide bomber explodes himself, the families of the exploded will give gifts and celebrate as they see that gruesome act as wholly transcendental and exhalting.  I see it as disgusting.

On emnity between Muslims and Christians…

Qur’an 5:17 “Verily they are disbelievers and infidels who say, ‘The Messiah, son of Mary, is God.’”

Qur’an 5:51 “Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends. They are but friends and protectors to each other.”

Qur’an 5:72 “They are surely infidels who blaspheme and say: ‘God is Christ, the Messiah, the son of Mary.’  But the Messiah only said: ‘O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.’”

Qur’an 74:31 “We have appointed nineteen angels to be the wardens of the Hell Fire. We made a stumbling-block for those who disbelieve and We have fixed their number as a trial for unbelievers in order that the People of the Book may arrive with certainty, and that no doubts may be left for the People of the Book, those in whose hearts is a disease.”

Ishaq:180 “According to my information, the Apostle often sat by a young Christian slave named Jabr. The Meccans said, ‘He is the one who teaches Muhammad most of what he brings.’ Then Allah revealed, Qur’an 16:103 ‘We know what they (pagans) say: “It is only a mortal man who teaches him (Muhammad). But the tongue of the man they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this (Qur’an) is pure Arabic.’”

Qur’an 72:15 “But the Qasitun (disbelievers) are the firewood of hell.”

Qur’an 88:1 “Has the narration reached you of the overwhelming (calamity)? Some faces (Jews and Christians) that Day, will be humiliated, downcast, scorched by the burning fire, while they are made to drink from a boiling hot spring.”

Qur’an 9:29 “Fight those who do not believe in Allah or the Last Day, who do not forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, or acknowledge the Religion of Truth (Islam), (even if they are) People of the Book (Christians and Jews), until they pay the Jizyah tribute tax in submission, feeling themselves subdued and brought low.” [Another translation says:] “pay the tax in acknowledgment of our superiority and their state of subjection.”

Ishaq:552 “The Quraysh had put pictures in the Ka’aba including two of Jesus and one of Mary. Muhammad ordered that the pictures should be erased.”

Qur’an 5:14 “From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We made a covenant, but they forgot and abandoned a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, stirred up enmity and hatred among them to the Day of Doom. Soon will Allah show them the handiwork they have done.”

Guest, now that I have fully demonstrated the Islamic disdain for the christian let do one last final research as to where the Unbeliever (read: Christian) is doomed to go when he dies:

On Hell for ALL Non believers in Islam:

Qur’an 56:41 “But those of the left hand-how unhappy those of the left hand. They will be in the scorching hot wind and boiling water, under the shadow of thick black smoke, neither cool nor agreeable. …They will be gathered together on a certain day which is predetermined. Then you, the erring and the deniers will eat Zaqqoom [a thorn tree]. Fill your bellies with it, and drink scalding water, lapping it up like female camels raging of thirst and diseased. Such will be their entertainment, their welcome on the Day of Doom…the welcome of boiling water and the entertainment of roasting in Hell. This is the ultimate truth.” 

Bukhari:V8B76N537 “The Prophet said, ‘Allah will say, “Adam!” “I am obedient to Your orders.” Allah will say, “Bring out the people of the Fire.” “How many are the people of the Fire?” Allah will say, “Out of every thousand take out nine-hundred and ninety-nine persons.” At that time children will become hoary-headed and every pregnant female will drop her load. You will see the people as if they were drunk. Allah’s punishment will be very severe.’”

Qur’an 37:19 “They will say, ‘Woe to us! This is the Day of Doom.’ Assemble the wrong-doers and their wives and the things they worshipped besides Allah, then lead them to the fierce flaming fires of Hell.”

Qur’an 37:63 “For We have truly made it as a trial to torment the disbelievers. Zaqqum is a horrible thorn tree that grows in Hell. The shoots of its fruit-stalks are like the heads of devils. Truly they [non-Muslims] will eat it and fill their bellies with it. On top of that they will be given a mixture made of boiling water to drink especially prepared. Then they shall be returned to the Blazing Fire.”

Qur’an 74:8 “The trumpet shall sound a day of anguish for disbelievers. Leave Me alone to deal with the creature whom I created bare and alone! Leave Me to deal with those I granted wealth and sons.”

Qur’an 96:15 “Let him beware! If he does not desist, We will seize him, smite his forehead, and drag him by the forelock, a lying, sinful forelock! Then, let him call upon his henchmen for help and summon his council of comrades. We will call on the angels of punishment to deal with him!”

Qur’an 74:15 “They have offered stubborn opposition to Our Signs. Soon I will visit them with a mountain of calamities, imposing a fearful doom and a distressing punishment. For these men thought and plotted; so woe to them! They shall be cursed for their plots.”

Qur’an 74:26 “Soon will I fling them into the burning Hell Fire! And what will explain what Hell Fire is? It permits nothing to endure, and nothing does it spare! It darkens and changes the color of man, burning the skin! It shrivels and scorches men.”

Qur’an 74:31 “We have appointed nineteen angels to be the wardens of the Hell Fire. We made a stumbling-block for those who disbelieve and We have fixed their number as a trial for unbelievers in order that the People of the Book [Christians and Jews] may arrive with certainty, and that no doubts may be left for the people of the Book, those in whose hearts is a disease.”

Qur’an 75:20 “Some faces will be gloomy knowing that some great back-breaking calamity is about to be inflicted on them. Yes, when their soul comes up their throat and reaches their collarbone they will cry, ‘Is there a magician or wizard who can save us?’ But they will know that it is the hour of parting and one leg will be joined with another, agony heaped on agony, affliction combined with affliction.”

Qur’an 67:7 “We have prepared the doom of Hell and the penalty of torment in the most intense Blazing Fire. For those who reject their Lord is the punishment of Hell: Evil, it is such a wretched destination. When they are flung therein, they will hear the terrible drawing in of their breath and loud moaning even as the flame blazes forth, roaring with rage as it boils up, bursting with fury. Every time a fresh crowd is cast in, Hell’s wardens will ask, ‘Did no Warner come to you?’”

Qur’an 69:27 “‘I wish death had put an end to me. The stern command will say: ‘Seize him, manacle him, chain him and cast him into the Blazing Fire of Hell. String him to a chain the length of which is seventy cubits. This is the fate of those who do not believe in the Lord Most Supreme or feed the poor. They have no friend today. They will have no food save filthy refuse which the hellish eat.”

Qur’an 70:10 “The Mujrim (disbeliever) desire will be to free himself from the Punishment by sacrificing his children as a ransom to save himself from the torment.”

Qur’an 70:12 “He would sacrifice his wife and his brother, and his kin who sheltered him, and all that is on earth to deliver himself from the Doom. By no means! For them it is the Fire of Hell! Plucking apart his body right to the skull! Taking away the head skin. Eager to roast; dragged by the head, hell shall claim all who flee.”

Qur’an 70:42 “So let them chat vainly and play about, with their idle disputes until they encounter that Day of Doom which they have been threatened! They will rise from their sepulchers in sudden haste as if they were rushing to a goal, their eyes lowered in dejection and disgrace, aghast, abasement stupefying them—ignominy shall overtake them! Such is the Day that they are threatened with!”

Qur’an 80:33 “At length, when the deafening cry comes, that Day shall a man flee from his own brother, and from his mother and father, and he will abandon his wife and children.  Each one of them will have enough concern to make him indifferent to others.”

Qur’an 68:42 “On the day when the great calamity of doom befalls them in earnest, and they are ordered to prostrate themselves, they will not. There shall be a severe affliction. Their eyes will be downcast, abasement stupefying them; ignominy will cover them. Seeing that they had been summoned beforehand to bow in adoration, while they were still whole and unhurt, they refused.”

Qur’an 68:44 “Then leave Me alone with such as reject this Message and call Our pronouncements a lie. Systematically by degrees, step by step, We shall punish them in ways they can not even imagine. [Hell is where Allah resides.]”

Qur’an 73:11 “Leave Me alone to deal with the beliers (those who deny My Qur’an). Respite those who possess good things for a little while. Verily, with Us are heavy shackles (to bind), a raging fire (to burn them), food that chokes, and a torturous penalty of painful doom.”

Bukhari:V4B54N487 “The Prophet said, ‘The Hell Fire is 69 times hotter than ordinary worldly fires.’ So someone said, ‘Allah’s Apostle, wouldn’t this ordinary fire have been sufficient to torture the unbelievers?’”

Qur’an 72:15 “But the Qasitun (disbelievers) are the firewood of hell.” (my emphasis added)

Qur’an 7:41 “They shall have a bed on the floor of Hell and coverings of fire; this is how We reward them.”

Qur’an 104:4 “He will be sure to be thrown into that which breaks him into pieces, flung to the Consuming One. And what will explain to you that which Breaks him into Pieces, Consuming and Crushing? It is the fire kindled by Allah which leaps up over them penetrating the hearts of men.” [Allah is in hell, kindling the fire.]

Qur’an 87:12 “They will be flung in to burn in the great Fire (and be made to taste its burning, in which they will then neither die nor live?”

Qur’an 88:1 “Has the narration reached you of the overwhelming (calamity)? Some faces (all disbelievers, Jews and Christians) that Day, will be humiliated, downcast, scorched by the burning fire, while they are made to drink from a boiling hot spring.”

and my personal favorite:

Qur’an 47:15 “Those who shall dwell forever in the Fire are given to drink boiling water that tears their bowels to pieces, and cutting their intestines to shreds.”

Yikes.  There is another one that I really like about how the unbeliever will be sent to the fires and as readily as his skin is consumed by the fires a crew of ghouls are there to exchange the burnt up skins with new skins so that the torment is freshly repeated.  I cannot find that one but I was reading it just the other day.

I can go on and on but this post is getting quite lengthy.  I have reams more of quotes from your Qur’an on a variety of ghoulish inhuman topics.

Guest…  Apologetics won’t save you, I am afraid.  Islam is brutality and intolerance incarnate.


Total Posts:  77
Joined  19-12-2005
24 December 2005 04:25

[quote author=“Noggin”]Hello Guest.  I posted only a few quickies.  Thank you kindly for the context.  However, the Muslim holy writ is chalk full of gruesomeness.  Ready?  Okay:

Qur’an 2:191 “And kill them wherever you find and catch them. Drive them out from where they have turned you out; for Al-Fitnah (polytheism, disbelief, oppression) is worse than slaughter.”



You pasted something form a website, whcih includes hadith by Bukhari, Ishaq, Tabri . My interest here as you know was specific verses form the Qur’an. So,lets follow the rules of engagement.

Secondly, I will start with individual verses in your post, starting with the very first verse from the Qur’an that you pasted is from Surah (Chapter) 2 , verse 3 191. But my friend you have made the same mistake again, reading it out of context and the writer is practicing willful deception by ingoning the 2:190 and 2:192.

Please read and please respond to it directly before we go to other verses in your post.

[QUR’AN 2:190] Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 2:190]

The message of Islam is universal. From early times the Muslims were only permitted to fight in self defence. When there is no option, and in the face of persecution, however, the Muslims must fight. The strength of Islam lies in its certainty of ultimate victory over aggression, transgression, and ascribing falsehood to Allah and His last prophet. Fitna can mean oppression, persecution, seduction - all implying the “discord” that attachment with ghayrallah (other-than-Allah) brings about. It is used as in verse 217 of this surah - war is detestable but fitna is worse than slaughter. Islam promotes peace, order and harmony in the human society and keeps man on the right path. When the enemies of Islam found that the light of this message was sweeping darkness from every corner, the disbelievers vowed to annihilate it. It was only then that, no recourse being left for the believers, they had to resolutely take up the sword in defence. Verses 39 and 40 of al Hajj also give permission to fight when any people is wronged, oppressed and persecuted.

If Numbers 25: 1 to 3 and 31: 7 to 18 in the Old Testament are read carefully one comes to the conclusion that when the Israelites, in Shitim, began to worship the gods of Moab the Lord God asked Moses to “take all the leaders of the people and hurl them down to their death before the Lord.”

And they made war on Midians as the Lord has commanded Moses, and slew all the men. The Israelites took captive the Madianite women and children, and carried off all their cattle, their flocks and their property. They burnt all their cities. Moses asked them to kill every male child and every women who has had intercourse with a man.

So in the way of Allah, the prophets were commanded to put an end to the activities of the disbelievers who wanted to destroy the true devotees of Allah in order to stop the advancement and progress of the religion of Allah. The Quran commands the Muslims not to exceed the limits but to fight evil until its power base is dislodged, and if the kafirs desist then to show mercy. Compared to what the other prophets did, as commanded by Allah, to destroy the unbelievers, the role assigned to the Holy Prophet as the “mercy unto the worlds” was the most benign of all the campaigns undertaken by His messengers to liberate mankind from the clutches of the enemies of Allah. He fought and killed the enemy whenever war was imposed on him.

Nobody who has any idea of the miserable conditions of the early Muslims, would for a moment imagine that this handful of people could have wantonly set themselves to provoke the active hostility of the whole world about them. They would quietly have borne any provocation rather than take the risk of fighting numberless hordes. If they did engage themselves in this way, one would presume that circumstances had forced them to it; unless their very existence was in peril, they could not possibly have thought to plunge themselves into a mortal struggle. This is so clear a priori that even if the initiative did appear to be taken by Muslims, no sane minded person would for a moment suppose that they were really offensive wars - they must have been offensive with a defensive import. The circumstances had forced them to take action, and if the Holy Prophet had not been quick to it and had waited for a formal assault from the other side, he would only have given the enemy time to collect their forces; and who can doubt that in that case, the world would soon have heard the last of this little band of Muslims.

Yet such is the perversity of prejudice that no such considerations, obvious as they are, are allowed to have any weight with writers like Muir, Sale, Neoldeke and others. All they can see is that in the battle of Badr and its prelude, the raid of Abdullah bin Jahsh, it was the Muslims that began the quarrel with the infidels. What the infidels had been doing all the time before is, as a matter of principle, ignored and forgotten.

How deep-rooted was the acrimony which drove the infidels on against the new converts, may be easily judged from their pursuing them down even to Abyssinia, to where the Muslims had fled to avoid the horrible tortures they were suffering at their hands. The infidels would not let them live in peace even in other lands. Could it be imagined that they could all complacently see them flourish and develop their mission from a centre only 70 miles away from themselves? What are the facts? Soon after the emigration of the Holy Prophet, they wrote to the chief of Madina, Abdullah ibna Obay, as follows:

You have given protection to our man. We have sworn by God that you either kill him or expel him, otherwise we will come upon you with all of us. and kill your fighting men and take hold of your women as lawful for us”

Obay bin Kab says, “When the Holy Prophet and his people came to Madina and the Ansars took them under their protection, all the Arabs were united to make an assault upon them. They never lay down to sleep except with their weapons with them.”

This is not the place to give an account of the various wars and battles that were fought. They will be described under the various verses relating to them.

This is merely an introduction that may help us to understand the true state of things at the time. All this is quietly passed over by European critics of Islam.

Finally it should be noted that as without jihad correspondence of the Holy Prophet to the career of prophet Musa would fail to be perfect, Islam would also fail to be a complete and perfect religion for the world. Fighting has well been said to be the direct necessity of human nature, a religion that did not provide for it, did not regulate its principles and define its rightful limits, would not be a perfect religion, much less a final religion for the world.

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

In spite of all that has been said that Islam prefers peaceful methods of preaching the truth, and that it never took any initiative in waging wars against its opponents, the fact is that Islam recognises the right of taking the initiative in using force against those who persist in ungodly activities causing human degradation or social and moral deterioration. But this measure can only be adopted by the prophet of Allah or his vicegerents, authorised by Him, and none else. As Imam Muhammad bin Ali al Baqir says: “A war may be termed as holy or godly (jihad) if the object is to make people give up submission to the ghayrallah and to submit only to Allah’s authority and the divine will. But if the purpose is to make them give up submission to one creature in order to submit to any other, it is the usual war waged for selfish and worldly gain. Hence it is unholy and thus condemned by Islam.” Taking this definition in view, it is obvious that no war is holy unless it is sanctioned and allowed by the person who is perfectly pure from every kind of ungodliness and is constantly in communion with the universal will of the absolute.

However, Islam enjoins on Muslims to be always ready, well prepared and well equipped to meet all exigencies, or an eventuality which may unexpectedly develop against them, then they should gather as much strength as they can, so that their opponents, the opponents of the divine cause, may refrain from any unprovoked aggression. (Anfal: 60).

[QUR’AN 2:191] And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 2:191]

The order is to kill the enemy (against whom fighting has been enjoined) wherever they are found, whilst the war goes on. It does not refer to unbelievers in general.

“And drive them out from where they drove you out” refers to Makka, wherein the holy Kabah, the centre of Islam, is located, because it belonged to the Muslims but was usurped by the infidels unlawfully. ......


[QUR’AN 2:192] But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 2:192]

Showing mercy when one has the upper hand is enjoined in this verse. On all occasions, the lover of Allah attempts to draw near Him by taking on the appropriate attribute of Allah. Mercy and forgiveness for the enemies if they desist from fighting has been recommended. No other creed or religion has this provision.


Total Posts:  630
Joined  06-02-2005
24 December 2005 05:13

When Islam finally takes over the world, how can I as an outspoken infidel expect to be treated?