Psalm 22:17

 
eudemonia
 
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eudemonia
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08 March 2010 12:14
 

Or as translated in the Revised Standard Version Psalm 22:16-

“Yea, dogs are round about me; a company of evildoers encircle me; they have pierced my hands and feet.”

As Scholars have long known, the phrase ‘they have pierced’ does not really represent the Hebrew text (Masoretic Text) To achieve that translation, scholars have to change the Hebrew text for it to make sense. Instead of ‘they have pierced’ the actual Hebrew text has a Hebrew word, ‘ry’, which is best translated as ‘lion’, and which is preceded by a Hebrew preposition, meaning ‘as’ or ‘like’. Thus, if one did use the actual Hebrew text, the verse may be translated Literally as:

“Yea, dogs are round me: a company of evildoers encircle me, Like a lion my hands and feet.”

The problem is that there seems to be a verb missing in that last line. Even if we understand the verse to say’ my feet and hands are like a lion’ the whole clause seems incompatible with the attack being depicted. Thus many scholars simply change ‘like a lion’ into a verb such as ‘pierce’, ‘dig’, or ‘shrivel’, as in the NRSV- ‘my hands and feet are shriveled’

Of course, it would be more honest to translate the text as it is found, but that only recalls our argument that translations often are meant to hide biblical infelicities rather than to expose them. Indeed, it is difficult to avoid the implication that ‘they pierced my hands and feet’ often has been retained because it historically has served Christian arguments that Jesus’ crucifixtion is being prophesized in that Psalm. The apologetic use of this Psalm, in fact can be traced at least as far back as the debates between Trypho the Jew and Justin Martyr in the second century.

This from ‘The End of Biblical Studies by Hector Avalos.

 
 
zelzo
 
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zelzo
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08 March 2010 18:13
 

“Yea, dogs are round about me; a company of evildoers…”

Dogs are evildoers?
No wonder the Bible sucks.

 
 
eudemonia
 
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eudemonia
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09 March 2010 21:38
 

‘Are you trained in hermeneutics and seeking to discuss your discoveries?’

No, thats why I study people who are.

 
 
goodgraydrab
 
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goodgraydrab
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09 March 2010 21:57
 
Brother Mario - 09 March 2010 07:47 PM

Why are you guys talking about the Bible?

God forbid! I never saw that pre-requisite: For the hermeneutically trained only. To think, the Catholic Church used to kill people for just that reason.

You want to hear something funny: Atheists on this site spend most of their time writing about religion and God. It’s as if the atheist position is not a position at all, but only the denial of the opposite position. I don’t think I ever read anything that is atheistic in character and content, only denials of belief and attacks on believers.

Everything you say is funny, Mario. Are you sure you can read? Or just being selective? Maybe your misconception of science extends to Atheism.

These are the topics that need to be discussed by the secularists on this site. To waste time making claims that religious people are THE great danger is just nuts.

Secularism means we don’t need you to determine what topics to discuss or how to discuss them, for one thing. Second, you believers are in the majority, and the majority on the right are believers, so hows about taking care of those problems. Start with an appeal to your fellow Theist head-loppers.

 
 
Andrew
 
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Andrew
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10 March 2010 08:25
 

Guys—let’s get this back to a discussion of Psalm 22:17.
Bro Mo—stop hijacking threads.

Thanks

 
 
eudemonia
 
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eudemonia
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10 March 2010 12:19
 

Yeah that’s the problem Andrew, there is really nothing to discuss. The implication is clear, and thats why scholars such as Avalos point it out. Christianity is propaganda.

I just put this Psalm up for those who maybe were not familiar with it.

About all people like Bro Mar can do with it is spin, deflect and downplay.

As expected.

 
 
EN
 
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EN
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10 March 2010 17:14
 
eudemonia - 10 March 2010 11:19 AM

Yeah that’s the problem Andrew, there is really nothing to discuss. The implication is clear, and thats why scholars such as Avalos point it out. Christianity is propaganda.

This is a non-sequitur, but you know that. “There is a dispute about the proper interpretation of a passage, therefore, Christianity is propaganda.” Nice reasoning.

There are Hebrew manuscripts that have the “pierced” verbiage.  Furthermore, it was translated as “pierced” in the LXX (Septuagint), which was the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, written before Jesus was born.  The “pierced” language is found in the Targum, and in Arabic and Syriac versions.  Furthermore, what a lion does is “pierce” with his teeth. This is borne out in the same psalm at 22:21, when the psalmist prays to be saved from the lion’s mouth. Finally, it fits with Zechariah 12:10 - “they shall look upon me whom they have pierced” where a different Hebrew word is used but the concept is similar. So there is a valid dispute about the proper translation, and about whether the MT should be followed.  And your ingenious contribution to the issue is to conclude that “Christianity is propaganda.”  Pathetic.

 
Andrew
 
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Andrew
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10 March 2010 17:54
 

My question about Psalm 22 has always been:
What the hell is an “Aijeleth Shahar”?
Title of a song?

 
 
EN
 
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EN
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10 March 2010 19:52
 
Andrew - 10 March 2010 04:54 PM

My question about Psalm 22 has always been:
What the hell is an “Aijeleth Shahar”?
Title of a song?

Here’s a simple answer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aijeleth_Shahar

Many of the psalms have these types of titles, some referring to tunes or instruments. There is significant uncertainty about some of them.

 
Andrew
 
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Andrew
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10 March 2010 20:11
 
Bruce Burleson - 10 March 2010 06:52 PM
Andrew - 10 March 2010 04:54 PM

My question about Psalm 22 has always been:
What the hell is an “Aijeleth Shahar”?
Title of a song?

Here’s a simple answer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aijeleth_Shahar

Many of the psalms have these types of titles, some referring to tunes or instruments. There is significant uncertainty about some of them.

(Andrew):  Yeah.  That’s where I was going.  “The Hind of the Dawn”?  That’s a song?  A musical instrument?  What?

 
 
EN
 
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EN
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10 March 2010 20:36
 
Andrew - 10 March 2010 07:11 PM

  “The Hind of the Dawn”?  That’s a song?  A musical instrument?  What?

My guess is a song. Current scholarship suggests that it was similar to Communication Breakdown by Led Zeppelin.

 
Andrew
 
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Andrew
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10 March 2010 20:57
 
Bruce Burleson - 10 March 2010 07:36 PM
Andrew - 10 March 2010 07:11 PM

  “The Hind of the Dawn”?  That’s a song?  A musical instrument?  What?

My guess is a song. Current scholarship suggests that it was similar to Communication Breakdown by Led Zeppelin.

(Andrew):  Please!  They didn’t even do four beats to a bar in those days.