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Mention the OTHER Tencommandments too

 
Acupuncturist
 
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24 June 2010 09:45
 

Those two lists aren’t even close! What possible reason could the creator of the entire universe have had for revising his “Commandments” after the original tablets were broken?  But look at what gets left out and much is made clear. Modern Christians break almost every commandment every day so the rewrite is quite helpful to them. For instance Thou shalt not kill, commit adultery, steal, bear false witness or covet were taken out of the second edition. This is convenient since Christians are well known for their special ability to cheat on their spouse with their neighbor’s wife, then lie about it while stealing from the war fund. It’s also a good thing molten gods replaced graven images because every church I have ever been in, has all sorts of graven images all over the place. Not making molten gods (?)  is easier for Christians. Keeping the sabbath holy is really a challenge. Resting on the seventh day means you can do some yard work, play some ball and enjoy yourself. The biggest problems appear to be associated with these sacrifices. No-one is sacrificing animals anymore. I’m going to bring a goat to the local house of worship and see if I can enlist any Christians to help me carry out the Lord’s Commandments.

 
 
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24 June 2010 10:09
 
Acupuncturist - 24 June 2010 07:45 AM

Those two lists aren’t even close! What possible reason could the creator of the entire universe have had for revising his “Commandments” after the original tablets were broken?  But look at what gets left out and much is made clear. Modern Christians break almost every commandment every day so the rewrite is quite helpful to them.

(Andrew):  That’s because they’re part of Jewish Law.  They don’t apply to Christians—unless it’s handy to quote one in the interest of passing judgement on someone’s lifestyle or sexual orientation.

 
 
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24 June 2010 10:57
 

Isn’t the explanation that “it’s all just old Jewish laws that we don’t need to follow anymore” just the excuse used to justify why no-one follows the law? Because when it comes to posting the ten commandments at the court house or in the school auditorium, they are characterized as being of supreme importance.

 
 
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24 June 2010 11:56
 
Acupuncturist - 24 June 2010 08:57 AM

Isn’t the explanation that “it’s all just old Jewish laws that we don’t need to follow anymore” just the excuse used to justify why no-one follows the law? Because when it comes to posting the ten commandments at the court house or in the school auditorium, they are characterized as being of supreme importance.

Christians are schizophrenic when it comes to the Torah.  They pay lip service to it and often demand that it be acknowledged as the Word of God, applicable to today.  Of course, none of them follow it to the letter, and the Torah itself pronounces a curse on everyone who does not follow all its commandments. That is why Jesus instituted a New Covenant.  A “New Covenant” supersedes an “Old Covenant” (Testament). Jesus gave new commandments, a new commission, and a new communion. He did away with the old and instituted the new. Christians would do well to follow his lead.

 
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24 June 2010 14:51
 
Ecurb Noselrub - 24 June 2010 09:56 AM

Christians are schizophrenic when it comes to the Torah.  They pay lip service to it and often demand that it be acknowledged as the Word of God, applicable to today.  Of course, none of them follow it to the letter, and the Torah itself pronounces a curse on everyone who does not follow all its commandments. That is why Jesus instituted a New Covenant.  A “New Covenant” supersedes an “Old Covenant” (Testament). Jesus gave new commandments, a new commission, and a new communion. He did away with the old and instituted the new. Christians would do well to follow his lead.

(Andrew):  Nowhere in scripture does it say that the Law will ever be “done away with”.  That’s Christian fluff.  Just the opposite, actually—many passages say that the Law will be in effect forever and none of it shall ever be changed and we must each follow every one (verses on request). 
In fact, according to Jeremiah, when the “New Covenant” is finally established, “I (God, not Jesus) will put my law (the same ol’ Law) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.” 
Now I know a great many Jews, none of whom say that God’s Law is written in their “inward parts” or “in their hearts”.  So there’s been no “New Testament” established as yet…and God’s Law, under the Old Covenant, is still very much in effect.
Christians ignore that fact at great peril to the salvation of their souls.

I’m not sure which argument this is?  50 something?

With respect to those who don’t follow Torah being cursed—I don’t find that verse anywhere?  If you break some of the Law you’re a sinner of course, but you can atone for that sin and then everything’s ducky. 
Just like Christianity.

 
 
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24 June 2010 15:10
 
Andrew - 24 June 2010 12:51 PM
Ecurb Noselrub - 24 June 2010 09:56 AM

Christians are schizophrenic when it comes to the Torah.  They pay lip service to it and often demand that it be acknowledged as the Word of God, applicable to today.  Of course, none of them follow it to the letter, and the Torah itself pronounces a curse on everyone who does not follow all its commandments. That is why Jesus instituted a New Covenant.  A “New Covenant” supersedes an “Old Covenant” (Testament). Jesus gave new commandments, a new commission, and a new communion. He did away with the old and instituted the new. Christians would do well to follow his lead.

(Andrew):  Nowhere in scripture does it say that the Law will ever be “done away with”.  That’s Christian fluff.  Just the opposite, actually—many passages say that the Law will be in effect forever and none of it shall ever be changed and we must each follow every one (verses on request). 
In fact, according to Jeremiah, when the “New Covenant” is finally established, “I (God, not Jesus) will put my law (the same ol’ Law) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.” 
Now I know a great many Jews, none of whom say that God’s Law is written in their “inward parts” or “in their hearts”.  So there’s been no “New Testament” established as yet…and God’s Law, under the Old Covenant, is still very much in effect.
Christians ignore that fact at great peril to the salvation of their souls.

I’m not sure which argument this is?  50 something?

With respect to those who don’t follow Torah being cursed—I don’t find that verse anywhere?  If you break some of the Law you’re a sinner of course, but you can atone for that sin and then everything’s ducky. 
Just like Christianity.

Paul (who never met Jesus) did away with it on authority from god.

 
 
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24 June 2010 16:11
 
Andrew - 24 June 2010 12:51 PM
Ecurb Noselrub - 24 June 2010 09:56 AM

Christians are schizophrenic when it comes to the Torah.  They pay lip service to it and often demand that it be acknowledged as the Word of God, applicable to today.  Of course, none of them follow it to the letter, and the Torah itself pronounces a curse on everyone who does not follow all its commandments. That is why Jesus instituted a New Covenant.  A “New Covenant” supersedes an “Old Covenant” (Testament). Jesus gave new commandments, a new commission, and a new communion. He did away with the old and instituted the new. Christians would do well to follow his lead.

(Andrew):  Nowhere in scripture does it say that the Law will ever be “done away with”.  That’s Christian fluff.  Just the opposite, actually—many passages say that the Law will be in effect forever and none of it shall ever be changed and we must each follow every one (verses on request). 
In fact, according to Jeremiah, when the “New Covenant” is finally established, “I (God, not Jesus) will put my law (the same ol’ Law) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.” 
Now I know a great many Jews, none of whom say that God’s Law is written in their “inward parts” or “in their hearts”.  So there’s been no “New Testament” established as yet…and God’s Law, under the Old Covenant, is still very much in effect.
Christians ignore that fact at great peril to the salvation of their souls.

I’m not sure which argument this is?  50 something?

With respect to those who don’t follow Torah being cursed—I don’t find that verse anywhere?  If you break some of the Law you’re a sinner of course, but you can atone for that sin and then everything’s ducky. 
Just like Christianity.

It doesn’t matter what the Law says about the Law being done away with.  It matters (to the Christian) what Paul (our theologian in chief) says about it.  He says we are no longer under it - Galatians 3:19-25.  This accords nicely with what Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-18 - the Law and the Prophets will not pass away until all is fulfilled.  Jesus came to fulfill the Law and Prophets, he accomplished what he came to do, and so now the Law and the Prophets have passed away (for those under the New Covenant).

The Torah cursed anyone (that is, of the Jews, who were under that covenant) who did not obey the entire law - Deuteronomy 27:26 & 28:15.  That was the understanding of Paul (Galatians 3:10) and James (James 2:10-11 - to offend in one part is the same as breaking the entire law.)

 
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24 June 2010 17:38
 
Ecurb Noselrub - 24 June 2010 02:11 PM

It matters (to the Christian) what Paul (our theologian in chief) says about it.  He says we are no longer under it - Galatians 3:19-25.

(Andrew):  Right.  Paul—a believer—ignored the explicit words of God as recorded by his prophets and contained in his own scripture.  And what I find amazing is that you…another believer…you’re putting your soul in the hands of this guy, Paul.  An itinerent 1st Century mystic, prone to hallucination.

Ecurb Noselrub - 24 June 2010 02:11 PM

This accords nicely with what Jesus said in Matthew 5:17-18 - the Law and the Prophets will not pass away until all is fulfilled.

(Andrew):  Of course we have no idea what Jesus, if he existed, said about anything.  All we have are anonoymous authors who were influenced by Paul and regurgitated in their writings his notion that ignoring the Torah was OK.

Ecurb Noselrub - 24 June 2010 02:11 PM

The Torah cursed anyone (that is, of the Jews, who were under that covenant) who did not obey the entire law - Deuteronomy 27:26 & 28:15.

(Andrew):  I think this is in Paul’s self-serving interpretation:

Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them

...if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice fo the Lord thy God, to observe to do all his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

These passages read that you’re cursed if you don’t recognize the Torah and understand that you should follow it, not for backsliding or disobeying.  So long as you understand what’s expected and make the effort, even if you fall short, you’re OK. 
There are only a very few characters in all scripture who “walked with God” and “did His commandments”.  The idea that all Jews who aren’t so mentioned were cursed has no basis in scripture.

 
 
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24 June 2010 18:29
 
Andrew - 24 June 2010 03:38 PM

The idea that all Jews who aren’t so mentioned were cursed has no basis in scripture.

They were cursed from time to time when “their sin grew high” and biblegod got fed up with ‘em. They ate their children, were attacked by other nations (which were lead by biblegod of course), were smitten with plagues and so on.

 
 
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24 June 2010 18:29
 
Andrew - 24 June 2010 03:38 PM

There are only a very few characters in all scripture who “walked with God” and “did His commandments”.  The idea that all Jews who aren’t so mentioned were cursed has no basis in scripture.

Well, let’s see: first they lost half their kingdom, then they lost all of it, then their city and temple were destroyed, then they were destroyed again, then ..... (Scripture ends here).  Then they were scattered everywhere, then they were persecuted wherever they went, then there was the holocaust, then, finally, they were given their own land again, where, happily, they now live in peace and security with loving friendly neighbors and free access to their temple mount—not.

 
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24 June 2010 18:54
 
Ecurb Noselrub - 24 June 2010 04:29 PM
Andrew - 24 June 2010 03:38 PM

There are only a very few characters in all scripture who “walked with God” and “did His commandments”.  The idea that all Jews who aren’t so mentioned were cursed has no basis in scripture.

Well, let’s see: first they lost half their kingdom, then they lost all of it, then their city and temple were destroyed, then they were destroyed again, then ..... (Scripture ends here).  Then they were scattered everywhere, then they were persecuted wherever they went, then there was the holocaust, then, finally, they were given their own land again, where, happily, they now live in peace and security with loving friendly neighbors and free access to their temple mount—not.

(Andrew):  Sorry…you’re right.  I was talking mention of individual, not national, sin.

Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.—Deut. 24:16

 
 
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26 June 2010 23:50
 
eudemonia - 20 June 2010 11:12 AM

Dan Barker, in his excellent book ‘Godless’ discusses this at length.

Yes this is an excellent book.  Barker was an evangelical Christian leader and then became completely disenchanted.  He knows the Christian faith from the inside out. 

One bit I remembered was his conviction that Jesus was just one of many apolocaliptic iterant preachers wandering around at the time and he was really fabricated by the four authors (or groups of authors) of the gospel.  I know there is some disagreement about this but Barker argues that Mark was the first and most reliable, about 70 C.E.  There were no miracles or hint of resurrection.  Then came Matthew five years later, and the fanciul accounts begin—angels, earthquake, rolling the stone from the tomb and resurrection.  Then Luke and Peter both wrote five years after that.  There is not only resurrection but also ascension—with Peter the ascension was particularly colorful but of course his gospel was removed, its’s “extracanonical.”  Then finally came John, the most imaginative with the fish story, ascension, and too many miracles to print.  He wrote 95 C.E.  But no one knows the real authors of course.

Anyone else read this?

 
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07 July 2010 20:11
 
Andrew - 24 June 2010 04:54 PM
Ecurb Noselrub - 24 June 2010 04:29 PM
Andrew - 24 June 2010 03:38 PM

There are only a very few characters in all scripture who “walked with God” and “did His commandments”.  The idea that all Jews who aren’t so mentioned were cursed has no basis in scripture.

Well, let’s see: first they lost half their kingdom, then they lost all of it, then their city and temple were destroyed, then they were destroyed again, then ..... (Scripture ends here).  Then they were scattered everywhere, then they were persecuted wherever they went, then there was the holocaust, then, finally, they were given their own land again, where, happily, they now live in peace and security with loving friendly neighbors and free access to their temple mount—not.

(Andrew):  Sorry…you’re right.  I was talking mention of individual, not national, sin.

Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.—Deut. 24:16

But also don’t forget what’s been said many times in the Old Testament:

... for I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, responding to the transgression of fathers by dealing with children to the third and fourth generations of those who reject me…
Exodus 20:5

And many other verses where god says that the children will be punished for the sins of their fathers. And it is not that god is only threatening, he actually did it.

“Nonetheless, because you have treated the LORD with such contempt in this matter, the son who has been born to you will certainly die.”
2 Sam 12:14

 
 
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13 July 2010 02:20
 

The old testament ends with this warning (i believe as a writer that the writer back then saw amongst his own people an issue which is still applicable today and so he wrote) “return the children to the fathers and the fathers to the children or else i shall smite the earth with a curse”  I take that to be a generational issue. One which is applicable today as it was back then.  The older generation should not be so stubborn as to think it cannot learn from the young and vice versa…otherwise what? conflict, fighting, ego’s etc.

As an atheist I added on something to that last paragraph “....or i shall smite the earth with a curse”... and that curse shall be me. I shall stand in the way between you and your fathers. you will always choose me over the real because i am without fault and therefore perfect. You children will adore me, not you, your fathers shall worship me, not you, for i am perfect. You will take instruction from the imagined and care and love what is not there. And the real shall suffer the curse that is God.

A curse by definition is unseen. It cannot be questioned, blamed or punished and IT IS ALWAYS THERE:..

sounds like a very perfect Curse.

So with that warning that if generations don’t stay close the earth will be smited with a curse. A few pages into the new testament, the new covenant, (in some bibles its in in others its not) there’s Jesus talking to some men saying “i have not come to bring peace on earth but rather to place a sword between you and your fathers” .................

Sounds like the curse has begun. If you didn’t listen to what the youth was saying you’re gonna cop it now.in the form of….

The invention and creation of God, I believe, by intelligent, concerned individuals, regarding their extended family, has served its purpose. It has kept Jewish people together, it has given them strength but i honestly feel that to cling to that from here on in and for the next 4 billion years on this earth it will begin working against itself. Go ahead, talk to your 12 year old kids, or 10 year old kids, they’ll tell you what u need to know. Let them grow free.

peace

 
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13 July 2010 02:26
 

and don’t forget that in reality and with the full backing of science and fact behind them, those children are more evolved than you. true.

 
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