Unfortunate encounter

 
Volted
 
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Volted
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12 February 2012 12:33
 

Hello, yesterday I had a rather unfortunate encounter wit an old family friends that are “secular” in a way, and don’t believe in god, however when the issue of religion was raised the tone of conversation changed so drastically, I couldn’t believe it. Here they are 2 grownups that don’t believe in god but take an extreme offence on religious people’s behalf. Off course they have taken offence on behalf of Judaism exclusively, they had no problem at bashing Christians and Muslims, however for me it took only to mention slightly the logical and historical flaws in the Torah, all bets were off.
How religious manage to construct such a strong front of defenders even among unbelievers?

 
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EN
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12 February 2012 17:01
 
Volted - 12 February 2012 11:33 AM

Hello, yesterday I had a rather unfortunate encounter wit an old family friends that are “secular” in a way, and don’t believe in god, however when the issue of religion was raised the tone of conversation changed so drastically, I couldn’t believe it. Here they are 2 grownups that don’t believe in god but take an extreme offence on religious people’s behalf. Off course they have taken offence on behalf of Judaism exclusively, they had no problem at bashing Christians and Muslims, however for me it took only to mention slightly the logical and historical flaws in the Torah, all bets were off.
How religious manage to construct such a strong front of defenders even among unbelievers?

“Jewishness” is as much cultural as it is religious, perhaps more so today.  The Torah is a cultural document that binds Jews together. Smashing it is likely to seem like antisemitism to them, perhaps.  It would be like bashing the US Constitution - someone might think you were anti-American. Just a thought.

 
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13 February 2012 03:02
 

Any creative ideas how would one go about penetrating this wall?
Peace,
George.

 
Jezuz_Alrighty
 
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Jezuz_Alrighty
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13 February 2012 03:34
 
Volted - 13 February 2012 02:02 AM

Any creative ideas how would one go about penetrating this wall?
Peace,
George.

  I think it is important to understand that one is born a Jew. They need not hold any of the beliefs of the Jewish faith whatsoever but will always be a Jew. That’s at least my take on it.  Say a native Australian Aboriginal moved to Perth and got a job as a welder and never practiced any of the customs or beliefs of his people. He would still be considered an Aboriginal person no matter what he did with his life. If his wife was from the same village and she moved to Perth with him and they had a child, the child would be Aboriginal also, no matter where he or she was born. Being Jewish is more of a bloodline than a belief.. A Jewish person could become a Catholic and still be Jewish but a Catholic could not convert to Judaism and remain a Catholic.
Good luck!

 
 
saralynn
 
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13 February 2012 12:35
 

I’ve never been to Israel, but I presume the people there must have developed a bunker mentality as a result of being attacked and despised for decades.  Ur…centuries.  Don’t think there’s much you can do to change it until the people feel safe and secure.  Which means…not likely in the foreseeable future.

 
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13 February 2012 13:30
 
saralynn - 13 February 2012 11:35 AM

I’ve never been to Israel, but I presume the people there must have developed a bunker mentality as a result of being attacked and despised for decades.  Ur…centuries.  Don’t think there’s much you can do to change it until the people feel safe and secure.  Which means…not likely in the foreseeable future.

I’d call it gross simplification though, since we have so many people that are Israeli citizens and live in peace: Armenians, Orthodox Russians, Druz Arabs, Muslim Arabs, Bedouins, Jews, Russian Immigrants, Ethiopians, Somali refugees, Chinese , Thais, Romanians.  all these live and work here, and I assure you not all share this “bunker mentality”. especially recent Somali refugees that were given residence cards and provided with shelter and food, having crossed the Sinai desert, some barefoot, just to escape the horrors of reality at home (and for some reason not content to stay in recently liberated Egypt I might add).
So some of us have challenges here ye, but I’ve seen Evangelicals with much less challenges in life taking a nuclear bomb fortified - reinforced concrete, bunker mentality with me.
Anyway I don’t think we should be dismissive and keep on trying to appeal to reason somehow.
Trouble with me that most books I’ve read on this issue deal mostly with Christianity, so I don’t have many good tactics on how to approach a religious Jewish apologetic, hence Ideas were needed…
Peace,
George.

 
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13 February 2012 13:55
 

VOLTED: I’d call it gross simplification though, since we have so many people that are Israeli citizens and live in peace: Armenians, Orthodox Russians, Druz Arabs, Muslim Arabs, Bedouins, Jews, Russian Immigrants, Ethiopians, Somali refugees, Chinese , Thais, Romanians.  all these live and work here, and I assure you not all share this “bunker mentality”. especially recent Somali refugees that were given residence cards and provided with shelter and food, having crossed the Sinai desert, some barefoot, just to escape the horrors of reality at home (and for some reason not content to stay in recently liberated Egypt I might add).
So some of us have challenges here ye, but I’ve seen Evangelicals with much less challenges in life taking a nuclear bomb fortified - reinforced concrete, bunker mentality with me.
Anyway I don’t think we should be dismissive and keep on trying to appeal to reason somehow.
Trouble with me that most books I’ve read on this issue deal mostly with Christianity, so I don’t have many good tactics on how to approach a religious Jewish apologetic, hence Ideas were needed:
Peace,

I didn’t think “bunker mentality” as an insulting term.  I thought of it as the state of mind you might have if you were swimming in the ocean surrounded by sharks. Yes, you have a BIG shark gun, but, unfortunately, it shoots both ways. I am not disagreeing that Evangelicals have a bunker mentality, as well.  As a matter of fact, so do atheists.

Glad all those nationalities get along so well, but, for some reason, I’m skeptical.  However, I have no facts to defend this skepticism, so I’ll tentatively take your word for it.

To be quite honest, George.  Your personality is a bit bunker mentality-ish.  You strike me as rather defensive. And humorless.  Not that I blame you.  Listen..take my advice and get yourself some valium.

 
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13 February 2012 14:30
 
saralynn - 13 February 2012 12:55 PM

VOLTED: I’d call it gross simplification though, since we have so many people that are Israeli citizens and live in peace: Armenians, Orthodox Russians, Druz Arabs, Muslim Arabs, Bedouins, Jews, Russian Immigrants, Ethiopians, Somali refugees, Chinese , Thais, Romanians.  all these live and work here, and I assure you not all share this “bunker mentality”. especially recent Somali refugees that were given residence cards and provided with shelter and food, having crossed the Sinai desert, some barefoot, just to escape the horrors of reality at home (and for some reason not content to stay in recently liberated Egypt I might add).
So some of us have challenges here ye, but I’ve seen Evangelicals with much less challenges in life taking a nuclear bomb fortified - reinforced concrete, bunker mentality with me.
Anyway I don’t think we should be dismissive and keep on trying to appeal to reason somehow.
Trouble with me that most books I’ve read on this issue deal mostly with Christianity, so I don’t have many good tactics on how to approach a religious Jewish apologetic, hence Ideas were needed:
Peace,

I didn’t think “bunker mentality” as an insulting term.  I thought of it as the state of mind you might have if you were swimming in the ocean surrounded by sharks. Yes, you have a BIG shark gun, but, unfortunately, it shoots both ways. I am not disagreeing that Evangelicals have a bunker mentality, as well.  As a matter of fact, so do atheists.

Glad all those nationalities get along so well, but, for some reason, I’m skeptical.  However, I have no facts to defend this skepticism, so I’ll tentatively take your word for it.

To be quite honest, George.  Your personality is a bit bunker mentality-ish.  You strike me as rather defensive. And humorless.  Not that I blame you.  Listen..take my advice and get yourself some valium.

Don’t mind me lashing out, had a very bad day (you know, one that involves lawyers, not-paying clients, taxes and all other pleasantries of life.)
on the side note, keep in mind that English isn’t my first language it’s my third, and the techy literature I read for my day job contains no humor in it,
I guess I need to take a course in English, My theory that detecting irony, sarcasm and facetiousness requires some literary skill.
for instance: “bunker” means “dumb” here. 
Peace,
George.

[ Edited: 13 February 2012 14:33 by Volted]
 
Dennis Campbell
 
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13 February 2012 15:18
 

It’ll take a while, like the rest of your life, to get a grasp on this country.  It is a huge place, but remarkably consistent from region to region, apart from quite small places where the politics and/on religious differences have a noticeable impact on everyday life.  I’ve lived in 26 places here in my life, in 5 states (California, Arizona, Texas, Michigan, Wisconsin) and have traveled through most others.  Have never felt threatened anywhere, not counting maybe being in a slum area of a big city at 3 A.M., when lost once.

 
 
Mike78
 
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13 February 2012 20:35
 

Most people who are not already atheists take umbrage to attacks against religion.  The foundations of belief or association to a religious cultural identity are incredibly deep and extremely insecure. 

Perhaps the approach is similar to the one that Dawkins has attempted.  They already agree that Christians and Muslims are wrongheaded in their belief in their particular gods.  You’re just going one god farther.  Maybe it also doesn’t hurt to note that the Christians and Muslims are appealing to the same god they are, just from a different place in the sand.

 
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27 March 2012 04:01
 

If you want to run a reality check on Jewishness, get your Jewishness defenders to go through the list of old torah laws and see which ones they keep, and what they agree are too daft (or too illegal) to follow.