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Everything was created.

 
TheBrotherMario
 
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TheBrotherMario
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03 December 2012 10:43
 

Atheists pit themselves against silly theists who claim that God created us fully developed and the universe is only 10,000 years old.

How convenient.

But atheists need to pit themselves against theists who, because of philosophical insight and talent, see the universe as not capable of simply being, but had to at some point come into being, and come into being with thought behind it.

A true “creationist” is a person who looks at their car in the driveway and understands that it did not put itself together and then drive itself to their house and then park itself.

The atheist/materialist position is that their car did all these things, in itself and without thought.

So, the silly theist and the illogical atheist/materialist are not so far apart in their reasoning abilities, and not on the forefront of any true discussion about the reality of our universe.

 
 
ChaosRules
 
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ChaosRules
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03 December 2012 10:51
 

Curious as to why you posted this in the Science forum?

 
MrRon
 
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MrRon
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03 December 2012 11:34
 
TheBrotherMario - 03 December 2012 09:43 AM

Atheists pit themselves against silly theists who claim that God created us fully developed and the universe is only 10,000 years old.

How convenient.

Yes, it is convenient because it’s demonstrably false.

But atheists need to pit themselves against theists who, because of philosophical insight and talent, see the universe as not capable of simply being, but had to at some point come into being, and come into being with thought behind it.

OK. Do you know any theists who have philosophical insight and talent? Bring them to this forum and we’ll embarrass them as well.

A true “creationist” is a person who looks at their car in the driveway and understands that it did not put itself together and then drive itself to their house and then park itself.

The atheist/materialist position is that their car did all these things, in itself and without thought.

This is called the ‘argument from design’ (or Teleological argument). You can learn about that here: http://skepdic.com/intelligentdesign.html

So, the silly theist and the illogical atheist/materialist are not so far apart in their reasoning abilities, and not on the forefront of any true discussion about the reality of our universe.


In Mario-speak, this translates to, “Only I, with my personal certitude of God and my superior intellect, am qualified to discuss the nature of the universe. You people are fools and will suffer for all eternity as payback for your refusal to acknowledge me as your spiritual and intellectual enlightener!”


By the way BM, if your god told you to kill your child as a sacrifice, would you do it?

Ron

 
Saul
 
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Saul
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03 December 2012 14:53
 

Firstly the word ‘created’ immediately skews this debate. Created implies a ‘creator’ yet there is no reason to assume one and no reason to assume the universe needed to be created in the first place. What law applies to the universe the means it had to be created which does not apply to a god?

Secondly the car argument is flawed in several ways. Scientists say the car MUST have been built and driven because we know it was. The reason we say ‘that car must have been created’ is because we have many other examples of cars which we know were created and that they require being driven. We do not however have any other examples of universes which we know were ‘created’. We don’t decide a car couldn’t have come into being because “it’s obvious” rather we make that determination based on the evidence at hand. That there are many other cars and they were all created. We can talk to the people who created and designed those cars and they can reveal their purpose.
Also by the car argument everything in the universe is ‘designed’ so it is impossible to make the comparison between something which was not designed and created with something that has been because there is nothing to compare it with. In order to make the claim ‘this had to be designed’ you must point to something which hasn’t been designed to make that comparison. There is not equivalent factual to make the comparison with. By your argument there is no ‘un-designed’ universe to compare to this designed one. Of course by counter argument we can look at this universe and say it was not designed and compare it with any number of universes we might design ourselves. Personally if I were to design a universe it would involve far less suffering, intelligent life would be able to inhabit more than just a thin film covering the surface of a small rock in a vast oblivion of uninhabitable wasteland. (Also there would be more colours which we would be able to see, a greater variety of smells and general sensory experiences, humans would be able to withstand and enjoy far greater temperature ranges, there wouldn’t be any disease and a commitment to science and discovery would reign supreme over iron age dogma.)

 
EN
 
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EN
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03 December 2012 15:42
 

I don’t think that anyone can definitively say that the universe does or does not have a purpose (part of the teleological argument).  It may and it may not. We would have to know exactly what the mind of the creator was (assuming one exists) before being able to say with certainty that there was a purpose, and we would have to know definitively that a creator did not exist before being able to say that there was no purpose.  We can’t do either.  We can guess, speculate, have faith, not have faith, propose probabilities, etc.  But we can’t know. At least not at this point in our evolution.

 
Brick Bungalow
 
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Brick Bungalow
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03 December 2012 16:28
 

What about the condescending bully who presumes to speak for other people?

 
EN
 
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EN
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03 December 2012 16:32
 
Brick Bungalow - 03 December 2012 03:28 PM

What about the condescending bully who presumes to speak for other people?

He doesn’t know anymore than the rest of us. In that respect, we are all equally ignorant.

 
Jezuz_Alrighty
 
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03 December 2012 17:03
 

Theists, may change the rules and call Christianity, a philosophy if they wish. Its a game they play all alone.  Religious philosophy is, apparently, the belief in something more, than what can be understood without magic.  Anyone who fails to believe in it, simply can not play. Those of us who fail to subscribe, lack imagination, faith and the ability to go beyond reason. I, personally, fail at this test.  I limit myself and suffer the Consequences Cars and planes are just a naturally forming occurrence in the given laws of the universe.  My personal, limited philosophy sees the universe itself, as the creators of these things. The apparent outcome of the big bang. is a Ford, in my driveway. The odds are long that the big bang, could form Hydrogen and Helium into stars that, over billions of years, fuse into iron and other compounds that formed life. Life becoming sentient and manipulating elements and the forces of nature, into Fords, Is crazy, I know. Yet, there it sits. I have an explanation for every step it takes to get it there. As an Atheist, I see god wanting to take credit for every step of the process. I don’t really want to be an Atheist. I don’t like that I need to brand myself, as someone who understands how things work, without involving magic. It’s ridiculous, and it pisses me off to no end.  I know it can be tempting, to think of my Ford, as divine inevitability. If god payed for the tags or gas, just once, i would be a firm believer. I could switch sides, just that easy. My Ford is part of the universe. It did create itself and park itself there. Yes, it took a long time to get there and many chemical reactions. That’s my philosophy. It sounds crazy when I type it out and read it.  Adding magic to the mix, just makes it that much more unbelievable. Can’t you understand how my Ford, is much more incredible, than yours?

 
 
Mike78
 
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03 December 2012 17:32
 

Are we going to hump this donkey carcas in yet another thread?  Of course this only begs the cause and effect question into an infinite regression.  The magical, cosmic designer of the ultimate car must also have had its own designer, and so on ad infinitum.  A buick cannot come from nothing, but a god can?

 
BobD3623
 
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03 December 2012 20:13
 

BM says: “But atheists need to pit themselves against theists who, because of philosophical insight and talent, see the universe as not capable of simply being, but had to at some point come into being, and come into being with thought behind it.”

If god had to put thought into it then the natural conclusion can’t be anything other then “Thought is a greater power than god”.  Thought is the tool that god is forced to rely on in order to create anything.  Therefore; god can’t be anything other then a product of thought.

 
BigNose
 
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BigNose
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03 December 2012 20:29
 

Surely, the more interesting subject is TheBrotherMario’s misbelief and subsequent psychotic ramblings.
He always seems to start from the position of personal revelation. Clearly some cognitive malfunction, processing some basic biblical themes absorbed in his disturbed youth.
He then proceeds (with his nose so elevated, he’d drown in a rainstorm) to reverse through anecdotal fictions and inductive arguing to support his delusion and wank his own ego.
It’s significant that, although he says he believes his god revealed itself to him, he still looks for third party support for his delusion from carefully selected writings.
Surely, if there was a god, and that god chose to confide in TheBozoMario, he’d have something of value to say to us.
I may be wrong. Perhaps God’s retarded.

 
Dennis Campbell
 
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03 December 2012 20:55
 
Ecurb Noselrub - 03 December 2012 03:32 PM
Brick Bungalow - 03 December 2012 03:28 PM

What about the condescending bully who presumes to speak for other people?

He doesn’t know anymore than the rest of us. In that respect, we are all equally ignorant.

Actually, he knows considerably less than most of us, so we’re not equally ignorant.

 
 
hannahtoo
 
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03 December 2012 23:41
 

The idea of a magical father God seems more problematic to me than the idea that nature’s laws make sense and everything grew out of that.  Mario’s answer to “Who made the laws?” might be Job’s.  Mine is that I don’t know, but we’ll probably understand more someday. 

If God can be eternal, then why can’t the universe itself be eternal?  If God can exist without being created, then why can’t the universe?  It only is a problem if a person is defining God specifically as “the only thing which has always existed and which created everything else.”

 
TheBrotherMario
 
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04 December 2012 10:44
 

An atheist avoids (and misunderstands)  the concept of essence with every thought and claim.

This is manifested above in every post.

The essence of the universe is finite because everything in the universe is finite. You cannot logically claim that the universe is infinite when you cannot find a single thing in the universe that can be labeled as such.

So, the atheist, to promote an agenda, shows their ignorance here. This is the epitome of a leap of faith.

And, speaking of ignorance, Bruce above claims that we are all the same when it comes to understanding the universe in reference to God. Bullshit.

Some of us have philosophical training that we apply to the data.

Bruce, a true PROTESTANT, believes that our human reason is flawed and incapable at knowing God, or anything pertaining to God, with certitude. Why does he believe this? Because Protestants believe that through original sin our reasoning capabilities have been damaged beyond repair where God is concerned. We must live only by faith.

Bruce does not speak for all believers, but only those who suffer from superstitious Bible reading.

On the other side of the Christian coin, there are Roman Catholics, who claim that God can be known with absolute certitude through his created works.

“Do you not know? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary, and His understanding no one can fathom” (Isaiah 40:28). “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—His eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse”  (Romans 1:20).

So, atheists, your acceptance of Bruce, a theist who clearly has no respect for the human mind, and your lack of acceptance for me, someone who claims the human mind can know and understand great things, is no more than a projection of your own ignorance and, most importantly, is no more than a promotion of your agenda.

I DO KNOW MORE, MUCH MORE, than all of you in reference to God and the meaning and power behind the universe, because I have allowed myself to be trained in such things, while you have allowed yourselves to remain in opinionated ignorance.

Any of you can know such things, too. So, I am not claiming to be someone special, only someone knowledgeable.

The beginning of this post displays this knowledge. Argue against this, not against who or what you think I am.

 
 
eudemonia
 
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04 December 2012 12:03
 

I DO KNOW MORE, MUCH MORE, than all of you in reference to God and the meaning and power behind the universe’

No you don’t. You have allowed yourself to be deluded, not trained, and that’s why you think you know more.

Religious belief is entirely speculation, that’s why we who are trained in skepticism doubt it’s validity.

For instance, everything was not ‘created’ Many things in life on Earth and the universe are ‘formed’

We have trust and you have faith.

Does God explain to you these differences Mario?

 
 
Mike78
 
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04 December 2012 12:57
 

Notably, BroMo still has no answer, just like every person and better thinker who has come before him, to the cause and effect problem and infinite regression objection which eviscerate the alleged superiority of the god hypothesis and creation argument.  This cycle always degrades to BroMo claiming his own personal experience as authority. 

The good news is this show repeats every few beats and is extremely cheap to attend.  The bad news is that the performers stink, the content sucks, the popcorn franchise is suspended under competing claims to ownership, and the experience fails to entertain very well.  The stagehands sometimes get the hook out and yank the show, but that’s not reliable.  Worse still, no refunds.

 
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