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Subatomic calculations indicate finite lifespan for universe

 
GAD
 
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GAD
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21 February 2013 16:41
 
Hannah2 - 21 February 2013 02:15 PM
GAD - 21 February 2013 12:11 PM
Hannah2 - 21 February 2013 10:30 AM

I get that the bubble would expand at light speed.  I wonder if there would be any detectable “disturbance” pushed ahead of it that we could detect?  Like, “Captain, I am picking up a subspace distortion!”

Well nothing is supposed to be able to travel faster then light, so I’d say no, poof we are gone and never even know it happened or that we ever existed.

Wait, I’m gonna figure this out right now…If an alternate universe pops into existence in our present universe and starts expanding, wouldn’t its gravitational field instantaneously affect the whole present universe?  Hmm?  Especially in closest proximity to the alternative universe?  So we might be able to detect that distortion.  Or maybe the disruption would just wipe us out.  Darn.

But I still hold out hope (from the article):

The calculation requires knowing the mass of the Higgs to within one percent, as well as the precise mass of other related subatomic particles.

“You change any of these parameters to the Standard Model (of particle physics) by a tiny bit and you get a different end of the universe,” Lyyken said.

We can’t (currently) detect them and nothing is faster then the speed of light.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_wave

 
 
Fool4Reason
 
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21 February 2013 18:42
 
GAD - 21 February 2013 03:41 PM
Hannah2 - 21 February 2013 02:15 PM
GAD - 21 February 2013 12:11 PM
Hannah2 - 21 February 2013 10:30 AM

I get that the bubble would expand at light speed.  I wonder if there would be any detectable “disturbance” pushed ahead of it that we could detect?  Like, “Captain, I am picking up a subspace distortion!”

Well nothing is supposed to be able to travel faster then light, so I’d say no, poof we are gone and never even know it happened or that we ever existed.

Wait, I’m gonna figure this out right now…If an alternate universe pops into existence in our present universe and starts expanding, wouldn’t its gravitational field instantaneously affect the whole present universe?  Hmm?  Especially in closest proximity to the alternative universe?  So we might be able to detect that distortion.  Or maybe the disruption would just wipe us out.  Darn.

But I still hold out hope (from the article):

The calculation requires knowing the mass of the Higgs to within one percent, as well as the precise mass of other related subatomic particles.

“You change any of these parameters to the Standard Model (of particle physics) by a tiny bit and you get a different end of the universe,” Lyyken said.

We can’t (currently) detect them and nothing is faster then the speed of light.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_wave

While you are correct that nothing is faster than the speed of light, it still takes a fuck of a long time for light to travel across the known universe. (28 billion parsecs or 93 billion light-years). I would think that if we were looking in the right direction with our most powerful space based telescopes, we would see something well in advance of the end of the universe. The trick would be knowing in which direction to look, and in recognizing that at which we were looking. Who knows. We may already have glimpsed the end in one of those amazing photos of the universe and we just don’t know it.

When it arrives here, it will seem instantaneous. Of this we can be sure.

http://flowingdata.com/2011/08/03/survey-of-the-universe-fly-through/

[ Edited: 21 February 2013 18:52 by Fool4Reason]
 
 
ChaosRules
 
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21 February 2013 18:55
 

Sorry Fool4Reason, but I think that GAD is correct. Regardless where you were looking, you would be looking at what those stars, etc looked like in the past. When we look at a star today, that star may have exploded years and years ago, but the visual results of that explosion would not have reached us yet. Our eyes and other optical devices rely on light in various wavelengths in order to detect an image, so if something is traveling at the speed of light, we will not detect it until it actually reaches us.

Not a big deal when it comes to a distant supernova, but a very big deal when that expanding wavefront is your own destruction. At least it would be instantaneous and we literally would not know what hit us.

 
Fool4Reason
 
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21 February 2013 20:14
 
ChaosRules - 21 February 2013 05:55 PM

Sorry Fool4Reason, but I think that GAD is correct. Regardless where you were looking, you would be looking at what those stars, etc looked like in the past. When we look at a star today, that star may have exploded years and years ago, but the visual results of that explosion would not have reached us yet. Our eyes and other optical devices rely on light in various wavelengths in order to detect an image, so if something is traveling at the speed of light, we will not detect it until it actually reaches us.

Not a big deal when it comes to a distant supernova, but a very big deal when that expanding wavefront is your own destruction. At least it would be instantaneous and we literally would not know what hit us.

Well Chaos, thanks for the 6th grade science class refresher, but I still must respectfully disagree. It is precisely the effect you note in your post that I am speaking of. Any event traveling at light speed will take up to 97 billion years to travel across the entire universe. It does not matter if that effect is the formation of a sun or a planet or the light from a distant galaxy or even, YIKES, the end of the universe. If it is being observed from here in the milky way, the event would take less time traveling to us, because we are not on the edge of the known universe. But nothing in our universe can travel the vast distances involved instantaneously. To do so would obliterate the laws of nature, by exceeding the speed of light by 97,000,000,000x.

For this reason, I stand by my earlier post. I think if we were looking in the right direction, and living in the right time and space, we might see a pressure wave or some observable effect long before the event overruns our position in the universe. Unless of course the event begins within remarkably close proximity to our physical location in space/time. Then all bets are off. Of course since it sounds like this event is not going to take place for unknown billions of years, earth won’t be around to experience it unless it is already well underway.

[ Edited: 21 February 2013 20:28 by Fool4Reason]
 
 
Fool4Reason
 
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21 February 2013 20:55
 

BTW, when the sun burns out and consumes the earth in perhaps 4.5 billion years from now,  the earth will have 1/63239.8 of a light year of visual warning. (1 AU or ‘Astronomical unit’ = the distance to the sun)

This works out to about 9.6 minutes of warning time for the light of the event to reach our planets surface. There won’t be any humans around to see it. Your just going to have to trust me on that…

But I think you must agree that nothing in the universe that is traveling at the speed of light can impact the entire universe all at once. The universe is just too danged big.

 
 
hannahtoo
 
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21 February 2013 21:28
 

Maybe some things can go faster than the speed of light.  Start at 40 min if you don’t want to watch all the background.

 
Fool4Reason
 
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22 February 2013 00:31
 
Hannah2 - 21 February 2013 08:28 PM

Maybe some things can go faster than the speed of light.  Start at 40 min if you don’t want to watch all the background.

Thanks Hannah. I don’t know why I so readily accepted the posit that the speed of light is the absolute fastest speed allowed in the universe made by GAD. Of course I have heard of tachyons before and knew that they seem to travel faster than light in some earth bound experiments that have been performed. The science is not settled in this matter by any means, but it is very cool research for sure.

So yes, tachyons might be able to travel faster than light, but they still don’t arrive at point “b” from point “a” instantaneously. Nothing can violate the simple time on target equation: distance traveled / average speed =  times to get there.  If our universe is a big as we think it is, then it would currently take light about 97,000,000,000 years to travel across it. So even if you could factor light speed by an order of magnitude (100x) it would still take 970,000,000 years for any event to travel across the entire universe. Half that time if it started in the middle and traveled outward in all directions equally and simultaneously.

My point here is that when, and if a new universe were to suddenly “explodes onto the scene” it is not going to be able to affect the entire universe uniformly at the same time. Even string theory and the additional 6 dimensions that are theorized in this newer theory still don’t destroy Einstein’s theory of relativity or the ‘speed limit’ of light speed, which is imposed upon the three dimensions of space/time we experience here in the physical world. So the possibility of seeing it coming, should anyone be there to witness it, is still very real in my opinion.

So I am still standing here. Can anyone can knock me down?

[ Edited: 22 February 2013 00:45 by Fool4Reason]
 
 
GAD
 
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22 February 2013 02:17
 
Fool4Reason - 21 February 2013 07:55 PM

BTW, when the sun burns out and consumes the earth in perhaps 4.5 billion years from now,  the earth will have 1/63239.8 of a light year of visual warning. (1 AU or ‘Astronomical unit’ = the distance to the sun)

This works out to about 9.6 minutes of warning time for the light of the event to reach our planets surface. There won’t be any humans around to see it. Your just going to have to trust me on that…

But I think you must agree that nothing in the universe that is traveling at the speed of light can impact the entire universe all at once. The universe is just too danged big.

No, sorry, you have it backwards when the sun goes out you will not know it for 9.6 minutes.

Please type your question into any grade school search engine and read it for yourself.

 
 
GAD
 
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22 February 2013 03:10
 
Hannah2 - 21 February 2013 08:28 PM

Maybe some things can go faster than the speed of light.  Start at 40 min if you don’t want to watch all the background.

Probably not http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachyon

But even “IF” they would have to carry information and we would have to have a way to read it. Poof!

 
 
Fool4Reason
 
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22 February 2013 03:37
 
GAD - 22 February 2013 01:17 AM
Fool4Reason - 21 February 2013 07:55 PM

BTW, when the sun burns out and consumes the earth in perhaps 4.5 billion years from now,  the earth will have 1/63239.8 of a light year of visual warning. (1 AU or ‘Astronomical unit’ = the distance to the sun)

This works out to about 9.6 minutes of warning time for the light of the event to reach our planets surface. There won’t be any humans around to see it. Your just going to have to trust me on that…

But I think you must agree that nothing in the universe that is traveling at the speed of light can impact the entire universe all at once. The universe is just too danged big.

No, sorry, you have it backwards when the sun goes out you will not know it for 9.6 minutes.

Please type your question into any grade school search engine and read it for yourself.

Right you are! Yet I remain unconvinced. first of all, the sun isn’t going to suddenly just burn out. It will take thousands or hundreds of thousands of years for that to happen, and if we were still and intelligent species living on this planet when it happens, which we surely won’t be, but if we were, we would have plenty of advanced warning of our impending doom from much bizarre solar behavior. Geeze, didn’t you ever see the movie “Knowing” with Nick Cage?

You are right though about the fact that that the events we are witnessing on the sun are 9.6 minutes old, so when the light of the last moment of the sun hits the earth, the “effect” of whatever that event is going to be, if it is also traveling at light speed, will arrive at the same instant. This will make it seem as though that 9.6 minute old last instant happened instantaneously to anyone here on earth. I admit it, I was 100% wrong about what we would see during those last 9.6 minutes. nothing but what the sun looked like 9.6 minutes ago. Duh!

However, for an event on the magnitude of a new universe wiping out our existing one,  I still think my statements hold. The universes is far to big for any event to effect the universe in its entirety simultaneously, so it seems to me that it remains a possibility that some kind of evidence of it may be visible from a distant part of the universe long before the actual event reaches the viewer.

I’m not saying you won’t swat this one down too GAD, but if you think I’m wrong, I’d honestly like to know if you can show me where my thinking is in error.

 
 
Jeff M
 
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22 February 2013 11:04
 

According to this theory, it looks like the Sun will slowly extinguish life in about 1 billion years., which is a serious recalculation for me when contemplating the time we have to make a plan B.  Regardless, it looks like we will not be going out with at single bang.

Here are some great images of other stars that have already consumed their planets.

 
GAD
 
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22 February 2013 15:25
 
Fool4Reason - 22 February 2013 02:37 AM
GAD - 22 February 2013 01:17 AM
Fool4Reason - 21 February 2013 07:55 PM

BTW, when the sun burns out and consumes the earth in perhaps 4.5 billion years from now,  the earth will have 1/63239.8 of a light year of visual warning. (1 AU or ‘Astronomical unit’ = the distance to the sun)

This works out to about 9.6 minutes of warning time for the light of the event to reach our planets surface. There won’t be any humans around to see it. Your just going to have to trust me on that…

But I think you must agree that nothing in the universe that is traveling at the speed of light can impact the entire universe all at once. The universe is just too danged big.

No, sorry, you have it backwards when the sun goes out you will not know it for 9.6 minutes.

Please type your question into any grade school search engine and read it for yourself.

Right you are! Yet I remain unconvinced. first of all, the sun isn’t going to suddenly just burn out. It will take thousands or hundreds of thousands of years for that to happen, and if we were still and intelligent species living on this planet when it happens, which we surely won’t be, but if we were, we would have plenty of advanced warning of our impending doom from much bizarre solar behavior. Geeze, didn’t you ever see the movie “Knowing” with Nick Cage?

You are right though about the fact that that the events we are witnessing on the sun are 9.6 minutes old, so when the light of the last moment of the sun hits the earth, the “effect” of whatever that event is going to be, if it is also traveling at light speed, will arrive at the same instant. This will make it seem as though that 9.6 minute old last instant happened instantaneously to anyone here on earth. I admit it, I was 100% wrong about what we would see during those last 9.6 minutes. nothing but what the sun looked like 9.6 minutes ago. Duh!

However, for an event on the magnitude of a new universe wiping out our existing one,  I still think my statements hold. The universes is far to big for any event to effect the universe in its entirety simultaneously, so it seems to me that it remains a possibility that some kind of evidence of it may be visible from a distant part of the universe long before the actual event reaches the viewer.

I’m not saying you won’t swat this one down too GAD, but if you think I’m wrong, I’d honestly like to know if you can show me where my thinking is in error.

The sun going out instantly was just for demonstration proposes, look at Wikipedia to see what a full star life looks like.

For the rest the physics are the same whether the event is 9.6 minutes away or 9.6 billion light years away.

 
 
Fool4Reason
 
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22 February 2013 22:15
 
GAD - 22 February 2013 02:25 PM

The sun going out instantly was just for demonstration proposes, look at Wikipedia to see what a full star life looks like.

For the rest the physics are the same whether the event is 9.6 minutes away or 9.6 billion light years away.

Still haven’t addressed the issue.

The point I’ve been trying to make here is that an event traveling at light speed will take many billions of years to transit the entire universe, because the current universe is measured at 97B light years across. So I would think this would open an opportunity for observation of the event after it starts, from somewhere that has not yet been directly affected by it. I’m not at all certain about this. The celestial events we currently witness are in the distant past. But wouldn’t the same kind of observations of the event postulated in your OP link, be possible from afar, in the distant future?

I’m still thinking that if the event unfolds at light speed from some unspecified location in our universe, that this would also leave open the possibility of observing its effects on other parts of the universe before it destroys the position of the viewer. Much as the Hubble can currently create images of long ago dying star events in other parts of the universe, wouldn’t the same be true of a theoretical telescope operating in the distant future when this theorized event kicks off in “tens of billions of years from now”? (Thanks to Jeff M for the link)

To be honest, it’s given me a bit trouble trying to figure out how to describe an example, and you have put more than a little doubt in my mind that I am right about it at all. No big deal, I’m often proven wrong, but so far, I have not seen anything yet that convinces me I am incorrect on this.

 
 
hannahtoo
 
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22 February 2013 22:18
 

But hey, in a billion years, we should probably be able to detect tachyons and dark matter and who knows what else.  We’ll have colonized a bunch of other planets as well as giant starship worlds.  Why are you guys all so pessimistic?

 
Jeff M
 
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22 February 2013 22:29
 
Hannah2 - 22 February 2013 09:18 PM

But hey, in a billion years, we should probably be able to detect tachyons and dark matter and who knows what else.  We’ll have colonized a bunch of other planets as well as giant starship worlds.  Why are you guys all so pessimistic?

I agree.  I believe the most important thing we can do now is hand over a well functioning Earth to the next generations.  A billion years is lots of time to figure this out.

 
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