An up-and-coming Muslim Europe?

 
 
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Thomas Orr
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27 March 2010 05:35
 
unsmoked - 23 March 2010 05:27 PM

Google: Project Reason, then select ‘forum.’  I think you’ll find that your name, avatar, password, number of posts etc. remain the same as here.  You won’t begin as a newbie.  (at the Project Reason forum just type in same name and password as here when logging in.)

Thank you. I followed your advice and started a discussion on the Project Reason forum. So far it is going better than anything I tried here. And there are no trolls yet grin

 
 
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camanintx
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12 August 2010 18:26
 
unsmoked - 01 June 2009 02:54 PM

Islam is now the fastest-growing religion in Europe.  The birthrate among European Muslims is three times that of their non-Muslim neighbors.  If current trends continue, France will be a majority-Muslim country in twenty-five years - and that is if immigration were to stop tomorrow.

Any idea how Sam figures this? I did some simple math using the following numbers and came up with 87 years, not 25.

Population of France - approximately 64 million
Muslims in France - about 10% or 6.4 million (this is the highest estimate, the actual number is probably more like 6%)
Birth rate as of 2009 - 12.85 per 1,000 people (tripled this for the Muslim population)
Death rate as of 2009 - 8.56 per 1,000 people

When I drop the initial Muslim population to 6%, it’s 109 years before they become a majority.

 
 
Dark Energy
 
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Dark Energy
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06 April 2011 10:21
 
eudemonia - 03 June 2009 10:34 AM

Troubling. Nuke ‘em!

Consider it a done deal after the US has nuked the Bible Belt.

PS: Oh and yes, you should not be too reliant on precision bombing.

 
 
Dark Energy
 
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Dark Energy
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06 April 2011 10:31
 
unsmoked - 01 June 2009 02:54 PM

“Let us briefly consider where our discordant reigious certainties are leading us on a global scale.  The earth is now home to about 1.4 billion Muslims, many of whom believe that one day you and I will either convert to Islam, live in subjugation to a Muslim caliphate, or be put to death for our unbelief. 

Islam is now the fastest-growing religion in Europe.  The birthrate among European Muslims is three times that of their non-Muslim neighbors.  If current trends continue, France will be a majority-Muslim country in twenty-five years - and that is if immigration were to stop tomorrow. 

Throughout Europe, Muslim communities often show little inclination to acquire the secular and civil values of their host countries, and yet they exploit these values to the utmost, demanding tolerance for their misogyny, their anti-Semitism, and the religious hatred that is regularly preached in their mosques.  Forced marriages, honor killings, punitive gang rapes, and a homicidal loathing of homosexuals are now features of an otherwise secular Europe, courtesy of Islam. 

Political correctness and the fear of racism have made many Europeans reluctant to oppose the terrifying religious commitments of the extremists in their midst.  With a few exceptions, the only public figures who have had the courage to speak honestly about the threat that Islam now poses to European society seem to be fascists.  This does not bode well for the future of civilization.”

Sam Harris - ‘LETTER TO A CHRISTIAN NATION’ - pages 83, 84, 85

Of course this is what happens everywhere in Europe. Democratic freedom, separation of church and state, the high ideals of secularism, they make only weak societies that shit their pants on the very first occasion. Secular societies lack belief in the power of their ideals because they don’t really believe in it themselves.

 
 
Dark Energy
 
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Dark Energy
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06 April 2011 10:35
 
unsmoked - 03 June 2009 05:50 PM
unsmoked - 01 June 2009 02:54 PM

Forced marriages, honor killings, punitive gang rapes, and a homicidal loathing of homosexuals are now features of an otherwise secular Europe, courtesy of Islam. 

Sam Harris - ‘LETTER TO A CHRISTIAN NATION’ - pages 83, 84, 85

It seems that there would presently be French laws against all of the above - with stiff penalties.  Further, since the worldwide population explosion is already taxing earth’s resources (water, food, energy etc.) - there needs to be a strong world government and a strictly enforced law - 2 children per family - or pay steep additional taxes.  A wealthy family with 10 kids would stand out like those who drive Hummers to go for groceries, or those who fill swimming pools while people die of thirst.

Why not cut off some balls here and there, Mengele style, to stress the high democratic secular principles that you claim to defend?

 
 
Nhoj Morley
 
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Nhoj Morley
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09 April 2011 04:21
 

I can’t believe how determine this Yenmap guy is put his spam right here and only right here….

 
 
kungfuhobbit
 
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kungfuhobbit
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03 March 2012 07:23
 

I was disappointed Sam didnt include a reference for the birth-rate claim.

heres what I found on google

http://www.meforum.org/337/islam-in-france-the-french-way-of-life-is-in

 
 
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unsmoked
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16 January 2016 08:36
 
unsmoked - 01 June 2009 10:54 AM

“Let us briefly consider where our discordant reigious certainties are leading us on a global scale.  The earth is now home to about 1.4 billion Muslims, many of whom believe that one day you and I will either convert to Islam, live in subjugation to a Muslim caliphate, or be put to death for our unbelief. 

Islam is now the fastest-growing religion in Europe.  The birthrate among European Muslims is three times that of their non-Muslim neighbors.  If current trends continue, France will be a majority-Muslim country in twenty-five years - and that is if immigration were to stop tomorrow. 

Throughout Europe, Muslim communities often show little inclination to acquire the secular and civil values of their host countries, and yet they exploit these values to the utmost, demanding tolerance for their misogyny, their anti-Semitism, and the religious hatred that is regularly preached in their mosques.  Forced marriages, honor killings, punitive gang rapes, and a homicidal loathing of homosexuals are now features of an otherwise secular Europe, courtesy of Islam. 

Political correctness and the fear of racism have made many Europeans reluctant to oppose the terrifying religious commitments of the extremists in their midst.  With a few exceptions, the only public figures who have had the courage to speak honestly about the threat that Islam now poses to European society seem to be fascists.  This does not bode well for the future of civilization.”

Sam Harris - ‘LETTER TO A CHRISTIAN NATION’ - pages 83, 84, 85

Maybe not converting Christians to Islam, but converting church buildings?  http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/2761/converting-churches-into-mosques

 
 
 
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icehorse
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24 January 2016 14:38
 

Zooming out a bit…

I subscribe to Gatestone, they provide an unrelenting, daily river of news of Islamism on the move. Clearly Gatestone has an agenda, but that in itself doesn’t make them wrong.

What do you guys think of Gatestone’s journalistic cred?

 
 
 
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Twissel
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25 January 2016 00:10
 

Whoever thinks that France could become Islamic has absolutely no clue about the country: France considers itself the birthplace of secularism, religion is not allowed to play role in politics and even the far-right would never invoke God to justify their rhetoric (though they might insinuate them through praising occidental/christian values). The surest way to lose any credibility in France is to admit that you are religious - which is maybe the main reason why Muslim integration has not happened:
The French schools system is mandatory, starts at young age and does not provide space for religion: students must find extra lessons somewhere if they want to learn how to be faithful to their beliefs. So it’s no wonder traditional Muslim families feel that their faith is under attack by the government, becasue it is - just like any other faith.

And why give a toss about turning churches into mosques? People go less and less to church, so there is no reason to pay for the upkeep of buildings just because a guy in a hat once sanctified it. In Europe, churches often changed from being catholic to protestant and back, depending on the faith of the rulers. If your faith depends on the real estate, you are in trouble anyways.

 
 
 
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icehorse
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25 January 2016 08:16
 
Twissel - 25 January 2016 12:10 AM

Whoever thinks that France could become Islamic has absolutely no clue about the country: France considers itself the birthplace of secularism, religion is not allowed to play role in politics and even the far-right would never invoke God to justify their rhetoric (though they might insinuate them through praising occidental/christian values). The surest way to lose any credibility in France is to admit that you are religious - which is maybe the main reason why Muslim integration has not happened:
The French schools system is mandatory, starts at young age and does not provide space for religion: students must find extra lessons somewhere if they want to learn how to be faithful to their beliefs. So it’s no wonder traditional Muslim families feel that their faith is under attack by the government, becasue it is - just like any other faith.

And why give a toss about turning churches into mosques? People go less and less to church, so there is no reason to pay for the upkeep of buildings just because a guy in a hat once sanctified it. In Europe, churches often changed from being catholic to protestant and back, depending on the faith of the rulers. If your faith depends on the real estate, you are in trouble anyways.

Islam plays the long, long game, and it’s pernicious. What seems innocent today ends up giving Islam a bigger and bigger foothold down the road.

 
 
 
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Twissel
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25 January 2016 08:51
 
icehorse - 25 January 2016 08:16 AM

Islam plays the long, long game, and it’s pernicious. What seems innocent today ends up giving Islam a bigger and bigger foothold down the road.

yep, and it’s losing.

numbers are not the way to win the game, education and innovation is. Compared to their share of global population, there are essentially no world-class Muslim scientist. There are also next to no world-class Muslim companies except for maybe some airlines which have the support of their governments.

 

 

 
 
 
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unsmoked
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25 January 2016 10:06
 
Twissel - 25 January 2016 12:10 AM

And why give a toss about turning churches into mosques? People go less and less to church, so there is no reason to pay for the upkeep of buildings just because a guy in a hat once sanctified it. In Europe, churches often changed from being catholic to protestant and back, depending on the faith of the rulers. If your faith depends on the real estate, you are in trouble anyways.

Mario likes to point out the countless church spires around the world as evidence that Sam Harris & Co. don’t know what they are talking about.  The caption here could be, “I saw your FOR RENT sign.”

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icehorse
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25 January 2016 19:46
 
Twissel - 25 January 2016 08:51 AM
icehorse - 25 January 2016 08:16 AM

Islam plays the long, long game, and it’s pernicious. What seems innocent today ends up giving Islam a bigger and bigger foothold down the road.

yep, and it’s losing.

numbers are not the way to win the game, education and innovation is. Compared to their share of global population, there are essentially no world-class Muslim scientist. There are also next to no world-class Muslim companies except for maybe some airlines which have the support of their governments.

Agreed in terms of science and tech. But I’d say that Islam is slowly and steadily wearing down western values, and most folks in the west are too numb and complacent to notice.

 
 
 
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Twissel
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25 January 2016 20:19
 
icehorse - 25 January 2016 07:46 PM

Agreed in terms of science and tech. But I’d say that Islam is slowly and steadily wearing down western values, and most folks in the west are too numb and complacent to notice.

I don’t see it, really. People, by and large, don’t want to be bothered, and zealous Muslims of any sort are very bothersome.
Take Mormonism or Scientology, for example: those ‘missionaries’ have tried to convert Europeans for decades,  using a lot of human and financial resources.

Result?
Zilch.

So if Islam has to grow ‘organically’, it will take 100years for them to become a dominating factor in western societies.