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Free Will: Moral Implications

 
 
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Paisley
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06 July 2012 13:32
 

   
I believe the moral implications are the same regardless of whether determinism or indeterminism holds true. Why? Because I don’t believe you can be held any more responsible for something that reduces to chance (indeterminism) than for something that was predetermined. (This should not be misconstrued to mean that I necessarily subscribe to strong incompatibilism - the notion that free will is incompatible with either determinism or indeterminism).

 
 
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toombaru
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06 July 2012 18:49
 
Paisley - 06 July 2012 01:32 PM

   
I believe the moral implications are the same regardless of whether determinism or indeterminism holds true. Why? Because I don’t believe you can be held any more responsible for something that reduces to chance (indeterminism) than for something that was predetermined. (This should not be misconstrued to mean that I necessarily subscribe to strong incompatibilism - the notion that free will is incompatible with either determinism or indeterminism).


Can you choose to believe differently than you do?

 
 
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Paisley
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06 July 2012 20:45
 
toombaru - 06 July 2012 06:49 PM

Can you choose to believe differently than you do?

Who’s asking the question?

 
 
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toombaru
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06 July 2012 20:48
 
Paisley - 06 July 2012 08:45 PM
toombaru - 06 July 2012 06:49 PM

Can you choose to believe differently than you do?

Who’s asking the question?

Are you into Advaita?

 
 
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Paisley
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06 July 2012 21:02
 
toombaru - 06 July 2012 08:48 PM
Paisley - 06 July 2012 08:45 PM
toombaru - 06 July 2012 06:49 PM

Can you choose to believe differently than you do?

Who’s asking the question?

Are you into Advaita?

It would appear that Sam Harris is.

 
 
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toombaru
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06 July 2012 23:07
 
Paisley - 06 July 2012 09:02 PM
toombaru - 06 July 2012 08:48 PM
Paisley - 06 July 2012 08:45 PM
toombaru - 06 July 2012 06:49 PM

Can you choose to believe differently than you do?

Who’s asking the question?

Are you into Advaita?

It would appear that Sam Harris is.

 

Sam’s belief does not necessarily add credence to anything.
He’s very smart.
But no one anywhere, at any time, has known anything about spirituality for one very simple reason

 
 
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Paisley
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07 July 2012 08:57
 
toombaru - 06 July 2012 11:07 PM

Sam’s belief does not necessarily add credence to anything.
He’s very smart.
But no one anywhere, at any time, has known anything about spirituality for one very simple reason

The bottom line is that Sam Harris appears to be into “Advaita Vedanta” (the KNOWLEDGE of nondual awareness…where “Atman” and “Brahman” become one)..

 

 
 
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toombaru
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07 July 2012 09:34
 
Paisley - 07 July 2012 08:57 AM
toombaru - 06 July 2012 11:07 PM

Sam’s belief does not necessarily add credence to anything.
He’s very smart.
But no one anywhere, at any time, has known anything about spirituality for one very simple reason

The bottom line is that Sam Harris appears to be into “Advaita Vedanta” (the KNOWLEDGE of nondual awareness…where “Atman” and “Brahman” become one)..

 

I have studied Advaita for many years, sat with many living “Advaita masters” and read just about every book that can be found on the subject.
(There are hundreds of them.)
Essentially the core of Advaita is no different than any other spiritual search.
The sense of self seeks to validate and perfect its own existence.
It almost never considers the fact that it exists only within its own imagination.
It will venture into the most fantastic, convoluted belief systems to assuage its innate fear of death.
It invents concepts and sets off on a journey to find them.
The conceptual mind stacks all of its labels in a pile and calls the pile “oneness”.
The self can never find that which exists only as one of its own ideas.
It is like a flashlight searching for the source of light.
It is like a salt doll searching for God at the bottom of the ocean.
It is like a shadow searching of itself on an open field.
The ultimate understanding is that there is no understanding and no one to have it.

 

 
 
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Paisley
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07 July 2012 10:00
 
toombaru - 07 July 2012 09:34 AM

The ultimate understanding is that there is no understanding and no one to have it.

Is that your understanding?

 
 
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toombaru
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07 July 2012 10:22
 
Paisley - 07 July 2012 10:00 AM
toombaru - 07 July 2012 09:34 AM

The ultimate understanding is that there is no understanding and no one to have it.

Is that your understanding?

grin

Good point.

And yes….....That is merely another understanding.
But it the one that evaporates all others….....including itself.
When that occurs sentient-consciousness finds its self adrift in a vast mystery.
The center breaks free and becomes everywhere.

But don’t take my word for it.
Find out for your self.

 
 
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Paisley
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07 July 2012 11:10
 
toombaru - 07 July 2012 10:22 AM

Good point.

And yes….....That is merely another understanding.
But it the one that evaporates all others….....including itself.
When that occurs sentient-consciousness finds its self adrift in a vast mystery.
The center breaks free and becomes everywhere.

But don’t take my word for it.
Find out for your self.

I believe you stated in another post that there isn’t any “self.”

 
 
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toombaru
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07 July 2012 11:37
 
Paisley - 07 July 2012 11:10 AM
toombaru - 07 July 2012 10:22 AM

Good point.

And yes….....That is merely another understanding.
But it the one that evaporates all others….....including itself.
When that occurs sentient-consciousness finds its self adrift in a vast mystery.
The center breaks free and becomes everywhere.

But don’t take my word for it.
Find out for your self.

I believe you stated in another post that there isn’t any “self.”


There isn’t.
When the illusion of self gets a look at its own essential emptiness, it loses its opacity.
What occurs is akin to a lucid dream in which the dream character knows that what it is experiencing has no reality outside of the organism’s slumber.
It is apperceived that he consensus conceptual overlay and its psychological center simply has no actual reality.
You are programmed to resist this knowledge because it is intuited that its apprehension spells doom to reality as you
(think you) understand it.
There is no advantage to this understanding.
There are no rewards.
In truth…...everything is lost.
There is, however, an up side.
But it is impossible to articulate simply because the tools used to dismantle the conceptual overlay (day-time-dream) are the tools used to create it.

 

 

 

 
 
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Paisley
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07 July 2012 12:25
 
toombaru - 07 July 2012 11:37 AM

There isn’t.
When the illusion of self gets a look at its own essential emptiness, it loses its opacity.
What occurs is akin to a lucid dream in which the dream character knows that what it is experiencing has no reality outside of the organism’s slumber..
It is apperceived that he consensus conceptual overlay and its psychological center simply has no actual reality.
You are programmed to resist this knowledge because it is intuited that its apprehension spells doom to reality as you
(think you) understand it.
There is no advantage to this understanding.
There are no rewards.
In truth…...everything is lost.
There is, however, an up side.
But it is impossible to articulate simply because the tools used to dismantle the conceptual overlay (day-time-dream) are the tools used to create it.

This is pantheistic idealism, not atheism.
 
All your time is spent in dreaming. Your sleeping and your waking dreams have different forms, and that is all.” - A Course in Miracles

 

 
 
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toombaru
Total Posts:  800
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07 July 2012 12:58
 
Paisley - 07 July 2012 12:25 PM
toombaru - 07 July 2012 11:37 AM

There isn’t.
When the illusion of self gets a look at its own essential emptiness, it loses its opacity.
What occurs is akin to a lucid dream in which the dream character knows that what it is experiencing has no reality outside of the organism’s slumber..
It is apperceived that he consensus conceptual overlay and its psychological center simply has no actual reality.
You are programmed to resist this knowledge because it is intuited that its apprehension spells doom to reality as you
(think you) understand it.
There is no advantage to this understanding.
There are no rewards.
In truth…...everything is lost.
There is, however, an up side.
But it is impossible to articulate simply because the tools used to dismantle the conceptual overlay (day-time-dream) are the tools used to create it.

This is pantheistic idealism, not atheism.
 
All your time is spent in dreaming. Your sleeping and your waking dreams have different forms, and that is all.” - A Course in Miracles


Oh, it doesn’t matter what you call it.
It is simply the absence of belief.
The belief in separate things creates a pseudo-reality.
I studied ACIM for ten years.
It is no different than any other delusional spiritual speculation.
It really isn’t that you are dreaming.
The sense of being a separate, autonomous you arises when the brain converts its perceptions into a conceptual map.
You are not dreaming.
You are the result of the confusion.
You cannot wake up any more than the people in your dreams can have access to the one dreaming.
You ARE the conceptual dream of separation.
And everything you believe about things immaterial is untrue.

 

 

[ Edited: 07 July 2012 13:06 by toombaru]
 
 
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Paisley
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07 July 2012 13:18
 
toombaru - 07 July 2012 12:58 PM

Oh, it doesn’t matter what you call it.
It is simply the absence of belief.
The belief in separate things creates a pseudo-reality.
I studied ACIM for ten years.
It is no different than any other delusional spiritual speculation.
It really isn’t that you are dreaming.
The sense of being a separate, autonomous you arises when the brain converts its perceptions into a conceptual map.
You are not dreaming.
You are the result of the confusion.
You cannot wake up any more than the people in your dreams can have access to the one dreaming.
You ARE the conceptual dream of separation.
And everything you believe about things immaterial is untrue.

It sounds like you’re as confused as Susan Blackmore..

 
 
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toombaru
Total Posts:  800
Joined  12-11-2010
 
 
 
07 July 2012 13:21
 
Paisley - 07 July 2012 01:18 PM
toombaru - 07 July 2012 12:58 PM

Oh, it doesn’t matter what you call it.
It is simply the absence of belief.
The belief in separate things creates a pseudo-reality.
I studied ACIM for ten years.
It is no different than any other delusional spiritual speculation.
It really isn’t that you are dreaming.
The sense of being a separate, autonomous you arises when the brain converts its perceptions into a conceptual map.
You are not dreaming.
You are the result of the confusion.
You cannot wake up any more than the people in your dreams can have access to the one dreaming.
You ARE the conceptual dream of separation.
And everything you believe about things immaterial is untrue.

It sounds like you’re as confused as Susan Blackmore..

grin
To be human is to be confused.
Susan Blackmore is one of the few people I would like to meet.
I think our memes might dance together and get all entangled.

[ Edited: 07 July 2012 13:37 by toombaru]
 
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