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An up-and-coming Muslim Europe?

 
 
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unsmoked
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01 June 2009 10:54
 

“Let us briefly consider where our discordant reigious certainties are leading us on a global scale.  The earth is now home to about 1.4 billion Muslims, many of whom believe that one day you and I will either convert to Islam, live in subjugation to a Muslim caliphate, or be put to death for our unbelief. 

Islam is now the fastest-growing religion in Europe.  The birthrate among European Muslims is three times that of their non-Muslim neighbors.  If current trends continue, France will be a majority-Muslim country in twenty-five years - and that is if immigration were to stop tomorrow. 

Throughout Europe, Muslim communities often show little inclination to acquire the secular and civil values of their host countries, and yet they exploit these values to the utmost, demanding tolerance for their misogyny, their anti-Semitism, and the religious hatred that is regularly preached in their mosques.  Forced marriages, honor killings, punitive gang rapes, and a homicidal loathing of homosexuals are now features of an otherwise secular Europe, courtesy of Islam. 

Political correctness and the fear of racism have made many Europeans reluctant to oppose the terrifying religious commitments of the extremists in their midst.  With a few exceptions, the only public figures who have had the courage to speak honestly about the threat that Islam now poses to European society seem to be fascists.  This does not bode well for the future of civilization.”

Sam Harris - ‘LETTER TO A CHRISTIAN NATION’ - pages 83, 84, 85

 
 
 
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GAD
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02 June 2009 21:57
 

So, is this prediction holding up?

 
 
 
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eudemonia
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03 June 2009 06:34
 

Troubling. Nuke ‘em!

 
 
 
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SkepticX
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03 June 2009 06:41
 

As a Dark Age style religion develops in the Western World it will be normalized though. This is probably a good thing, overall. We’ll still only hear about the extremist and fundamentalist bullshit, and I agree that it’s a negative effect, but it seems like to me that it’ll be a less negative effect overall than if Islam stays more isolated to the Middle East where it will continue to develop (fester) as a Dark Age religion.

I agree it’s still an issue of concern though—something to keep tabs on.

Byron

 
 
 
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unsmoked
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03 June 2009 13:50
 
unsmoked - 01 June 2009 02:54 PM

Forced marriages, honor killings, punitive gang rapes, and a homicidal loathing of homosexuals are now features of an otherwise secular Europe, courtesy of Islam. 

Sam Harris - ‘LETTER TO A CHRISTIAN NATION’ - pages 83, 84, 85

It seems that there would presently be French laws against all of the above - with stiff penalties.  Further, since the worldwide population explosion is already taxing earth’s resources (water, food, energy etc.) - there needs to be a strong world government and a strictly enforced law - 2 children per family - or pay steep additional taxes.  A wealthy family with 10 kids would stand out like those who drive Hummers to go for groceries, or those who fill swimming pools while people die of thirst.

[ Edited: 09 June 2009 12:07 by unsmoked]
 
 
Antisocialdarwinist
 
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Antisocialdarwinist
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10 June 2009 16:57
 

The Euro elections last weekend seem to indicate the pendulum is beginning to swing back the other direction.

Google “Euro elections 2009” for a sample of the election results and commentary.  Here’s one example, from the Telegraph:

European elections 2009: far-Right and fringe parties make gains across Europe amid low turnout

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/5471893/European-elections-2009-far-Right-and-fringe-parties-make-gains-across-Europe-amid-low-turnout.html

Anti-immigrant and far-right groups made significant gains in the Netherlands, Austria, Hungary, Denmark, Slovakia and Finland.

Since most immigrants to Europe are Muslim these days, I take this to mean that Europeans are finally getting fed up with them.

Here’s another example, also from the Telegraph:

European elections 2009: Holland’s Freedom Party gains four seats

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/5477568/European-elections-2009-Hollands-Freedom-Party-gains-four-seats.html

Holland’s anti-Islamic and Euro-sceptic Freedom Party, headed by Right-wing politician Geert Wilders, won 17 per cent of the vote to gain four seats at its first European election.

[ Edited: 11 June 2009 21:35 by Antisocialdarwinist]
 
 
Billy Shears
 
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Billy Shears
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20 June 2009 14:56
 

Political correctness and the fear of racism have made many Europeans reluctant to oppose the terrifying religious commitments of the extremists in their midst.  With a few exceptions, the only public figures who have had the courage to speak honestly about the threat that Islam now poses to European society seem to be fascists.  This does not bode well for the future of civilization.

Harris has indeed put his finger right on the most serious danger.  The more political and cultural leaders back away from addressing this issue, and the more they avoid the whole problem, and refuse to criticize Muslims for fear of being labeled racists, the more frustrated the average citizen in Europe is going to be at seeing the secularized, tolerant, democratic society that he values so highly undermined by ever increasing numbers of radical Muslims, who accrue ever more political power as their numbers increase.  And the more this happens, the more inclined the average citizen will be to turn to politicians on the extreme right—men he would otherwise never support—because they’re the only ones who seem willing to do something about this.

But I don’t think the answer is to force European society to continue committing demographic suicide by having no more than two children.  I know it’s very popular to say “we have too many people today.”  But people have been making Malthusian predictions of us overpopulating and destroying the earth since at least the 18th century.  It’s usually more alarmist than realistic.

 
 
 
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Dee
Total Posts:  585
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24 June 2009 01:14
 
unsmoked - 01 June 2009 02:54 PM

“Let us briefly consider where our discordant reigious certainties are leading us on a global scale.  The earth is now home to about 1.4 billion Muslims, many of whom believe that one day you and I will either convert to Islam, live in subjugation to a Muslim caliphate, or be put to death for our unbelief. 

Islam is now the fastest-growing religion in Europe.  The birthrate among European Muslims is three times that of their non-Muslim neighbors.  If current trends continue, France will be a majority-Muslim country in twenty-five years - and that is if immigration were to stop tomorrow. 

Throughout Europe, Muslim communities often show little inclination to acquire the secular and civil values of their host countries, and yet they exploit these values to the utmost, demanding tolerance for their misogyny, their anti-Semitism, and the religious hatred that is regularly preached in their mosques.  Forced marriages, honor killings, punitive gang rapes, and a homicidal loathing of homosexuals are now features of an otherwise secular Europe, courtesy of Islam. 

Political correctness and the fear of racism have made many Europeans reluctant to oppose the terrifying religious commitments of the extremists in their midst.  With a few exceptions, the only public figures who have had the courage to speak honestly about the threat that Islam now poses to European society seem to be fascists.  This does not bode well for the future of civilization.”

Sam Harris - ‘LETTER TO A CHRISTIAN NATION’ - pages 83, 84, 85


Dear unsmoked : I hope you are as much a proprietor of that quote as Harris is. I know I am. It sounds like something that would come out of my own mouth. Not as elequently, of course, but what he says I am thinking also.  One of the reasons I thought he was a sharp writer right away was that he , as one who looks at nonsensical or/and depressive and hurtful religion disdainfully, had insight.  There really is no airtight reason to think he is wrong about Islam and Europe.

 
 
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mesomorph
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26 July 2009 14:12
 

Nothing in the news recently, except for a story where a would-be terrorist was outed - by the congregation of his own mosque. See here

 
 
G. Geurtsen
 
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G. Geurtsen
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12 August 2009 11:32
 

This all sounds a bit too threatening to me. I know of a muslim woman, a collegue of mine, who started wearing a headscarf because she was angry with a dutch politician warning vehemently against surging islam. We should be aware of the fact that not many of us ‘westerners’ associate on a daily basis with people of the islamic faith. They are therefore strangers to us and we may find this threatening.

 
 
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Thomas Orr
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06 March 2010 19:45
 
Billy Shears - 20 June 2009 06:56 PM

But I don’t think the answer is to force European society to continue committing demographic suicide by having no more than two children.  I know it’s very popular to say “we have too many people today.”  But people have been making Malthusian predictions of us overpopulating and destroying the earth since at least the 18th century.  It’s usually more alarmist than realistic.

You think wrong. Japan has negligible population growth and is far from being dead as your ideology motivated argument would have it. What’s wrong with Europe (and the US) is the addiction to economical model driven by excessive consumption where the unsustainable life style of the rich is subsidized by underpaid labor. We are not that different from Romans and have the same ambiguous relations with our immigrants as Romans had with their slaves.

Neither I agree with your assessment that talking about reducing population is so trendy today. No it isn’t, mostly because the propaganda you help spreading is quite effective especially on religious. Overpopulation is a problem, my friend. Not a distant one. It affects us already today. The people at the top of the pyramid, the leaders you blindly follow are very well aware of this fact and they have a very cynical solution called social Darwinism. Our economical model needs those immigrant workers in good times but in bad times they become just “useless eaters” as Kissinger put so nicely. No, we will not kill them. We will allow the forces of nature to take care of the problem. After all it is just the law of supply and demand, or survival of the fittest, isn’t it? You would do us a favor, Billy, if you took a two weeks break from this forum and spend it in a library. My recommendations are “The confessions of an economic hit man” by John Perkins and “Collapse” (I forgot the subtitle) by Jared Diamond.

One thing I have to give credit to your ideology is how effective it is in population control. You see, I think that the liberal conviction that education is the key to population control is b*****t. You guys made having children so damn expensive that those who have more than two are committing an economic suicide. Praise the Lord as Pat Condell would comment. And Peace.

[ Edited: 06 March 2010 19:47 by Thomas Orr]
 
 
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unsmoked
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18 March 2010 10:20
 
Thomas Orr - 07 March 2010 12:45 AM

You would do us a favor, Billy, if you took a two weeks break from this forum and spend it in a library. My recommendations are “The confessions of an economic hit man” by John Perkins and “Collapse” (I forgot the subtitle) by Jared Diamond.

Thomas, an excellent post.  The subtitle of Jared Diamond’s ‘COLLAPSE’ is, “How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed’.  I’ve brought up this subject again on the Reason Project - ‘Mother Earth - La Source Maternelle.’  I go so far as to ask, “Do Americans enjoy wrecking the planet?”  (twice the energy consumption of many Europeans, and what?  Twenty times the energy consumption of the average Bangladeshi?  If that country and other Third World places become flooded by rising sea level, will the U.S. be willing to take in millions of desperate refugees?  Will we own up to being 5 percent of the world’s population creating 25 percent of the greenhouse gases? 

Right now it’s full steam ahead mining the Canadian tar sands, burning a mile-long trainload of coal in one gulp, building monster houses, buying new gas guzzling cars, and neglecting the construction of high-speed rail - even as the glaciers melt and the millions of people who depend on that water for summer irrigation . . . even as fights break out around the water trucks in the Indian slums and elsewhere.

 
 
 
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Thomas Orr
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19 March 2010 20:42
 
unsmoked - 18 March 2010 02:20 PM

Thomas, an excellent post.  The subtitle of Jared Diamond’s ‘COLLAPSE’ is, “How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed’.  I’ve brought up this subject again on the Reason Project - ‘Mother Earth - La Source Maternelle.’  I go so far as to ask, “Do Americans enjoy wrecking the planet?”  (twice the energy consumption of many Europeans, and what?  Twenty times the energy consumption of the average Bangladeshi?  If that country and other Third World places become flooded by rising sea level, will the U.S. be willing to take in millions of desperate refugees?  Will we own up to being 5 percent of the world’s population creating 25 percent of the greenhouse gases? 

Right now it’s full steam ahead mining the Canadian tar sands, burning a mile-long trainload of coal in one gulp, building monster houses, buying new gas guzzling cars, and neglecting the construction of high-speed rail - even as the glaciers melt and the millions of people who depend on that water for summer irrigation . . . even as fights break out around the water trucks in the Indian slums and elsewhere.

Thanks, unsmoked, for the praise but I am not happy. I am tired of talking to people who think differently whether it is about religion or politics. True, when they get me angry I am more eloquent than usual but that anger doesn’t get me anywhere. I have no illusion of having convinced anyone. Not The Champion, not Billy Shears.

I have a dream ... maybe we can get a bunch of like-minded people on this forum and try something more constructive. Unfortunately, this place got deserted lately. Obama and Democrats are failing? So what? It is not the reason to give up. Let’s look at the bright side. Republicans will take over and we will see what they are going to do with the huge debt this administration will leave behind. So far it was always the other way around. I have the sadistic pleasure of seeing them [Republicans] getting the taste of their own medicine, and I encourage you guys to see the bright side ... on the sinking Titanic. They say the band there played really well and I am a great fan of good music.

I have a tunnel vision these days. I really don’t care any more about what Christians are plotting and I only concentrate on two biggest problems we have. They are:

1. Our government and democracy are not working
2. Whatever political system we had in the past doesn’t matter, it’s a fully blown Corporatocracy now. Those who console themselves with our Founding Fathers and Constitution are naive fools.

There are so many awesome and witty minds here. We can put our brains together and come up with a plan. Even if we don’t change much at least we will keep ourselves busy, which is always nice.

I hope that the first to respond will be incomparable Salt Creek who never fails to deliver a healthy dose of cynicism. For some reason it always makes me laugh really hard.

 
 
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unsmoked
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22 March 2010 10:35
 
Thomas Orr - 20 March 2010 12:42 AM

There are so many awesome and witty minds here. We can put our brains together and come up with a plan. Even if we don’t change much at least we will keep ourselves busy, which is always nice.

I hope that the first to respond will be incomparable Salt Creek who never fails to deliver a healthy dose of cynicism. For some reason it always makes me laugh really hard.

Thomas,

Still no word from Salt Creek.  As Traces Elk he made an unexpected appearance on Project Reason, but then vanished again. He complimented me once on a Champ story (‘Champ Saves the Lone Ranger’) but after that I seemed to annoy him more with every post. (putting it mildly).  Perhaps I shouldn’t have called him, ‘Mr. Creek.’

If you haven’t heard it, or read it, check out Robert Kennedy Jr.‘s speech:

http://www.livinggreenmag.com/archives/energy_conservation/rfk_jr.html

I think that speech embodies a worthwhile plan.  I’ll post it on Project Reason with the topic title, HOW AMERICA CAN BE A WORLD CHAMP INSTEAD OF A WORLD CHUMP, or something like that.

 
 
 
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Thomas Orr
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22 March 2010 16:50
 
unsmoked - 22 March 2010 02:35 PM

Thomas,

Still no word from Salt Creek.  As Traces Elk he made an unexpected appearance on Project Reason, but then vanished again. He complimented me once on a Champ story (‘Champ Saves the Lone Ranger’) but after that I seemed to annoy him more with every post. (putting it mildly).  Perhaps I shouldn’t have called him, ‘Mr. Creek.’

It wasn’t personal. Salt Creek is what he is. If you have fragile ego watch your mouth grin

unsmoked - 22 March 2010 02:35 PM

If you haven’t heard it, or read it, check out Robert Kennedy Jr.‘s speech:

http://www.livinggreenmag.com/archives/energy_conservation/rfk_jr.html

I think that speech embodies a worthwhile plan.  I’ll post it on Project Reason with the topic title, HOW AMERICA CAN BE A WORLD CHAMP INSTEAD OF A WORLD CHUMP, or something like that.

Good to know that there are efforts to break our dependency on oil. I’ve heard in Europe we have something like 2% yearly decrease in oil consumption.

Nevertheless, I feel that the change must begin with political change. Where is that Project Reason located? Maybe I will post something there.

 
 
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unsmoked
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23 March 2010 13:27
 
Thomas Orr - 22 March 2010 08:50 PM

Nevertheless, I feel that the change must begin with political change. Where is that Project Reason located? Maybe I will post something there.

Google: Project Reason, then select ‘forum.’  I think you’ll find that your name, avatar, password, number of posts etc. remain the same as here.  You won’t begin as a newbie.  (at the Project Reason forum just type in same name and password as here when logging in.)

 
 
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