Can We Break The Spell Of Free Will?

 
 
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Geeseman
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28 June 2012 18:48
 
toombaru - 28 June 2012 06:23 PM

Of course you feel real.
That is the great consensus delusion.

It’s no delusion. I can verify my experiences using empirical data that can be confirmed by other people. People can also have their perception of reality falsified by others using empirical evidence (ie colourblind people).

toombaru - 28 June 2012 06:23 PM

To you the world that you experience during your night-time dreams appears to to be real.
But it all appears as a collage constructed from your personal collection of memories.
There is no difference between your night-time dream and your day-time dream.

Not sure what your dreams are like but mine are very different from reality.

toombaru - 28 June 2012 06:23 PM

You are a program whose function is to increase its host’s chances to survive and reproduce.
The program evolved to seek ways to make the organism’s life better.
It is not really interested in becoming more educated so it can make more moral decisions.
It merely desires to relieve the fear and stress that comes from the innate fear of its own impending doom.
The persona can never see its own peculiar circumstance simply because it IS the circumstance.
The one being dreamt can never have access to the dreamer.
There is. however,  a most peculiar perspective that occurs when the sense of self gets a peek up its own skirts that cannot be articulated simply because the arena out of which it emerges is the objectified overlay.
It’s a hell of a problem…...that doesn’t even exist.

Sorry I don’t see it that way. We are not a program, in fact I think that consciousness itself is simply a byproduct of our brain’s ability to process data, and therefore it is not subject to natural selection.

People actively show interests in education all the time. You learn so you can become educated and compete in the business world, for example. Some people understand the concepts of improving societies morals and campaign to do such things. They actively seek to educate themselves on matters to assist them in doing this.

As for the rest of you post, you might want to articulate you opinion so it is easier to understand.

 
 
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toombaru
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05 July 2012 13:01
 
Geeseman - 28 June 2012 06:48 PM
toombaru - 28 June 2012 06:23 PM

Of course you feel real.
That is the great consensus delusion.

It’s no delusion. I can verify my experiences using empirical data that can be confirmed by other people. People can also have their perception of reality falsified by others using empirical evidence (ie colourblind people).

toombaru - 28 June 2012 06:23 PM

To you the world that you experience during your night-time dreams appears to to be real.
But it all appears as a collage constructed from your personal collection of memories.
There is no difference between your night-time dream and your day-time dream.

Not sure what your dreams are like but mine are very different from reality.

toombaru - 28 June 2012 06:23 PM

You are a program whose function is to increase its host’s chances to survive and reproduce.
The program evolved to seek ways to make the organism’s life better.
It is not really interested in becoming more educated so it can make more moral decisions.
It merely desires to relieve the fear and stress that comes from the innate fear of its own impending doom.
The persona can never see its own peculiar circumstance simply because it IS the circumstance.
The one being dreamt can never have access to the dreamer.
There is. however,  a most peculiar perspective that occurs when the sense of self gets a peek up its own skirts that cannot be articulated simply because the arena out of which it emerges is the objectified overlay.
It’s a hell of a problem…...that doesn’t even exist.

Sorry I don’t see it that way. We are not a program, in fact I think that consciousness itself is simply a byproduct of our brain’s ability to process data, and therefore it is not subject to natural selection.

People actively show interests in education all the time. You learn so you can become educated and compete in the business world, for example. Some people understand the concepts of improving societies morals and campaign to do such things. They actively seek to educate themselves on matters to assist them in doing this.

As for the rest of you post, you might want to articulate you opinion so it is easier to understand.


We are a program that is programmed to believe that it is not a program.
The program not programmed to understand what it cannot understand.
There is no combination of concepts that will allow a conceptual program to get a glimpse of itself.
The program is composed of nothing but its own concepts.
It’s a hell of a problem…...that doesn’t even exist.
Some have experienced the essential emptiness of self but not through their personal effort.
“What can it do?” you ask.
Nothing…......absolutely nothing.
Something entirely outside of its realm of influence is needed to break the spell.
And no one knows what that is.

 

 
 
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Geeseman
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08 July 2012 02:14
 
toombaru - 05 July 2012 01:01 PM

We are a program that is programmed to believe that it is not a program.
The program not programmed to understand what it cannot understand.
There is no combination of concepts that will allow a conceptual program to get a glimpse of itself.
The program is composed of nothing but its own concepts.
It’s a hell of a problem…...that doesn’t even exist.
Some have experienced the essential emptiness of self but not through their personal effort.
“What can it do?” you ask.
Nothing…......absolutely nothing.
Something entirely outside of its realm of influence is needed to break the spell.
And no one knows what that is.

 

I have to ask, do you like to post stuff like this so you can read it back to yourself?

 
Nhoj Morley
 
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Nhoj Morley
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08 July 2012 08:27
 

That’s been my conclusion.

 
 
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toombaru
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08 July 2012 15:24
 
Geeseman - 08 July 2012 02:14 AM
toombaru - 05 July 2012 01:01 PM

We are a program that is programmed to believe that it is not a program.
The program not programmed to understand what it cannot understand.
There is no combination of concepts that will allow a conceptual program to get a glimpse of itself.
The program is composed of nothing but its own concepts.
It’s a hell of a problem…...that doesn’t even exist.
Some have experienced the essential emptiness of self but not through their personal effort.
“What can it do?” you ask.
Nothing…......absolutely nothing.
Something entirely outside of its realm of influence is needed to break the spell.
And no one knows what that is.

 

I have to ask, do you like to post stuff like this so you can read it back to yourself?


I do like to read what is written simply because it harmonizes so well with the way “things” are.
Do you think that you and your conceptual overlay are able to understand consciousness and its reality?

 

 
 
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Geeseman
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08 July 2012 19:42
 
toombaru - 08 July 2012 03:24 PM


I do like to read what is written simply because it harmonizes so well with the way “things” are.

How can you possibly know the way things are when by your own admission we are all incapable of being aware of reality.

toombaru - 08 July 2012 03:24 PM

Do you think that you and your conceptual overlay are able to understand consciousness and its reality?

I think I am capable of understanding it, sure. Whether or not I do at this time is what I do not know. I have hypothesis but I can’t falsify them so I don’t know if they are correct or not. I go by what evidence I know and from what I know I think Sam Harris is closest to the mark.

I’m all too willing to be proven wrong, so any time you have some useful information, aside from the babble you have added to this thread, I’m interested to hear it, but make sure you clearly outline your argument. Cut out all the pseudo intellectual references that have no literal meaning please.

 
 
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toombaru
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08 July 2012 20:55
 
Geeseman - 08 July 2012 07:42 PM
toombaru - 08 July 2012 03:24 PM


I do like to read what is written simply because it harmonizes so well with the way “things” are.

How can you possibly know the way things are when by your own admission we are all incapable of being aware of reality.

toombaru - 08 July 2012 03:24 PM

Do you think that you and your conceptual overlay are able to understand consciousness and its reality?

I think I am capable of understanding it, sure. Whether or not I do at this time is what I do not know. I have hypothesis but I can’t falsify them so I don’t know if they are correct or not. I go by what evidence I know and from what I know I think Sam Harris is closest to the mark.

I’m all too willing to be proven wrong, so any time you have some useful information, aside from the babble you have added to this thread, I’m interested to hear it, but make sure you clearly outline your argument. Cut out all the pseudo intellectual references that have no literal meaning please.


I suggest ( and I am not alone) that consciousness can never know itself.
I suggest that consciousness will never be privy to itself.
I suggest that which is labeled consciousness is not a thing that can by understood by the conceptual mind.
It’s a heck of a problem that minds greater than ours cannot even approach.
I suggest that no more is known about consciousness than was known five thousand years ago.
I suggest that no amount of college degrees will allow their recipient access an understanding of consciousness.
Ask Sam in ten years if he is any closer to penetrating the mysteries of consciousness.

 

 

 
Majority of One
 
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Majority of One
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08 July 2012 21:25
 

I have to side with education on this one.

I accept that I don’t have free will. But, my behavior has changed over the years in reaction to reading people like Sam, Richard, Dan and Christopher. I am less combative with people about religion mainly because I’ve come to realize people are helpless against it. They don’t choose to believe or not believe. I didn’t choose. Lookiing back at my childhood, this is much more clear to me now. I often wondered what the hell happened to me—afterall I was born into a family of religious people.

As an example of changed behavior, I no longer date alcoholics.  A friend pointed out that I date alcoholics to try to “win” in the war between the relationship vs alcohol. I want a man to choose me over his drug. I finally realized, with her help, that this wasn’t going to happen and it wasn’t about me. Education. I learned something about myself and changed my behavior. Haven’t dated an alcoholic since.

Just one example off the top of my head. I have others but won’t bore you.

How do you explain change in one’s personality if not by education?

 
 
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toombaru
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08 July 2012 22:02
 
Majority of One - 08 July 2012 09:25 PM

I have to side with education on this one.

I accept that I don’t have free will. But, my behavior has changed over the years in reaction to reading people like Sam, Richard, Dan and Christopher. I am less combative with people about religion mainly because I’ve come to realize people are helpless against it. They don’t choose to believe or not believe. I didn’t choose. Lookiing back at my childhood, this is much more clear to me now. I often wondered what the hell happened to me—afterall I was born into a family of religious people.

As an example of changed behavior, I no longer date alcoholics.  A friend pointed out that I date alcoholics to try to “win” in the war between the relationship vs alcohol. I want a man to choose me over his drug. I finally realized, with her help, that this wasn’t going to happen and it wasn’t about me. Education. I learned something about myself and changed my behavior. Haven’t dated an alcoholic since.

Just one example off the top of my head. I have others but won’t bore you.

How do you explain change in one’s personality if not by education?

The brain in all sentient organisms evolved to seek those options that satisfy its needs both physical an psychological.
Behavior changes based in new data.
But it is the brain that reacts to the stimulus not the persona.
The sense of being an autonomous person emerges within that arena and claims responsibility for the “choice”.
You did not seek out the inclination to date alcoholics and you did not seek out a resolution to the issue.
It was the brain that sought to relieve its own stress that came from dating those whose brains seek solace in alcohol.
Many years ago this brain grew weary of its body stumbling through life and opted for a somewhat easier life style, free from mind altering drugs.
And the persona is mighty glad it did.
(It still thinks it wants to try some shrooms before it dies…......we will see what happens.)

 

 

 

 
Majority of One
 
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Majority of One
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08 July 2012 22:24
 

I tried some shrooms before a Mardi Gras party in New Orleans one year. All it did was make me giggle constantly. I thought everything everyone said was funny. Or, well, my brain did. Not much harm.

Enjoy!

And, I like your answer. Makes sense.

 
 
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toombaru
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08 July 2012 23:00
 
Majority of One - 08 July 2012 10:24 PM

I tried some shrooms before a Mardi Gras party in New Orleans one year. All it did was make me giggle constantly. I thought everything everyone said was funny. Or, well, my brain did. Not much harm.

Enjoy!

And, I like your answer. Makes sense.

Most brains are programmed to reject anything that hints at the essential emptiness of being.
Perhaps yours is not.
Like Pinocchio, most just want to be real.
There are no advantages in this understanding.
Well…. unless one counts the profound sense of sublime quiessence when there is no one home.

 

[ Edited: 09 July 2012 09:33 by toombaru]
 
 
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Geeseman
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10 July 2012 02:23
 
toombaru - 08 July 2012 11:00 PM
Majority of One - 08 July 2012 10:24 PM

I tried some shrooms before a Mardi Gras party in New Orleans one year. All it did was make me giggle constantly. I thought everything everyone said was funny. Or, well, my brain did. Not much harm.

Enjoy!

And, I like your answer. Makes sense.

Most brains are programmed to reject anything that hints at the essential emptiness of being.
Perhaps yours is not.
Like Pinocchio, most just want to be real.
There are no advantages in this understanding.
Well…. unless one counts the profound sense of sublime quiessence when there is no one home.

Brains aren’t programmed at all. Evolution is the creator of the brain. Consciousness has no part in the choices we make so it has no effects that natural selection can act upon.
I have no problem accepting that there is emptiness in life. There is no purpose, no goal, no reason. It doesn’t stop me from enjoying what aspects of life I can enjoy.

 
 
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toombaru
Total Posts:  800
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10 July 2012 08:18
 
Geeseman - 10 July 2012 02:23 AM
toombaru - 08 July 2012 11:00 PM
Majority of One - 08 July 2012 10:24 PM

I tried some shrooms before a Mardi Gras party in New Orleans one year. All it did was make me giggle constantly. I thought everything everyone said was funny. Or, well, my brain did. Not much harm.

Enjoy!

And, I like your answer. Makes sense.

Most brains are programmed to reject anything that hints at the essential emptiness of being.
Perhaps yours is not.
Like Pinocchio, most just want to be real.
There are no advantages in this understanding.
Well…. unless one counts the profound sense of sublime quiessence when there is no one home.

Brains aren’t programmed at all. Evolution is the creator of the brain. Consciousness has no part in the choices we make so it has no effects that natural selection can act upon.
I have no problem accepting that there is emptiness in life. There is no purpose, no goal, no reason. It doesn’t stop me from enjoying what aspects of life I can enjoy.

 

The brain of all sentient organisms evolved to store information.
That stored information is the program that it uses to survive.
Consciousness evolved.
Any quality that a biological organism has effects its on the way it responds to its environment.
I’m not sure why you believe that consciousness has no effects on natural selection.

 

 
 
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toombaru
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10 July 2012 08:24
 
toombaru - 10 July 2012 08:18 AM
Geeseman - 10 July 2012 02:23 AM
toombaru - 08 July 2012 11:00 PM
Majority of One - 08 July 2012 10:24 PM

I tried some shrooms before a Mardi Gras party in New Orleans one year. All it did was make me giggle constantly. I thought everything everyone said was funny. Or, well, my brain did. Not much harm.

Enjoy!

And, I like your answer. Makes sense.

Most brains are programmed to reject anything that hints at the essential emptiness of being.
Perhaps yours is not.
Like Pinocchio, most just want to be real.
There are no advantages in this understanding.
Well…. unless one counts the profound sense of sublime quiessence when there is no one home.

Brains aren’t programmed at all. Evolution is the creator of the brain. Consciousness has no part in the choices we make so it has no effects that natural selection can act upon.
I have no problem accepting that there is emptiness in life. There is no purpose, no goal, no reason. It doesn’t stop me from enjoying what aspects of life I can enjoy.

 

The brain of all sentient organisms evolved to store information.
That stored information is the program that it uses to survive.
Consciousness evolved.
Any quality that a biological organism has effects its on the way it responds to its environment.
I’m not sure why you believe that consciousness has no effects on natural selection.

It isn’t that live is meaningless.
The human brain evolved to make connections, relationships and seek meaning.
It is logical that it the psychological self would seek out the meaning of its own imaginary existence.
Ultimately it has no existential reality and its own term “meaning” is meaningless.
And you are right.
Simply being can be high fun.
I find it much more enjoyable since the desire to figure it all out evaporated.

 

 
 
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Geeseman
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10 July 2012 15:37
 
toombaru - 10 July 2012 08:18 AM


The brain of all sentient organisms evolved to store information.
That stored information is the program that it uses to survive.
Consciousness evolved.
Any quality that a biological organism has effects its on the way it responds to its environment.
I’m not sure why you believe that consciousness has no effects on natural selection.

Stored information is not a program. It is also not the only factor involved in the survival of an organism. In most cases it would arguably be the least important factor (except for humans).
Consciousness, as Sam Harris explains, is not responsible for our actions, so how can it have any phenotype effects for natural selection to act upon?
Consciousness itself does not evolve. It dies when we die. It lasts only a single generation and has no capacity to evolve.
It’s evolution is purely the result of the evolving development of the brain itself.

toombaru - 10 July 2012 08:24 AM

It isn’t that live is meaningless.
The human brain evolved to make connections, relationships and seek meaning.
It is logical that it the psychological self would seek out the meaning of its own imaginary existence.
Ultimately it has no existential reality and its own term “meaning” is meaningless.
And you are right.
Simply being can be high fun.
I find it much more enjoyable since the desire to figure it all out evaporated.

 

Life is meaningless. To say it does is to say a rock has meaning, or a mountain has meaning.
The human brain evolved to keep us replicating in competition with our environment and for no other reason.
Consciousness is a byproduct of the complexity required of a brain to do this in its current and past environment.
Logic actually follows that we would try to understand the origin of our existence. Finding it, for me at least, has been enlightening.

[ Edited: 10 July 2012 15:43 by Geeseman]